Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Poll

Which source do you prefer?

I prefer source A
I prefer source B
No preference
My ears are fried, just show me the results

Author Topic: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)  (Read 7915 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6703
[comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« on: August 27, 2006, 03:05:08 PM »
[ The files used in the previous version of this comp were out of phase and flawed.  Please grab the new files and re-vote. Sorry for the hassle. ]

So last night I did a v3 vs. R09 A/D comp at Billy Joe Shaver.  I'll warn you right now that this is country. If that bothers you, maybe try thinking of it as folk  ;)

MG200 DIN > v3
  coax > microtrack 24/48
  analog out > r09 line in, 24/48, trim setting 8

Analog cables were belden 1814a.

The V3 gain was 35dB.
13.5 dB of gain was applied to the v3 source in post
4.5 dB of gain was applied to the r09 source in post

16/44 bit samples were produced with wavelab5, uv22hr

« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 01:54:03 PM by Freelunch »

New product - Get your NEUMANN active mounting bars
Active microphone mounting bars for Schoeps and AKG, and Naiant AKG, ready to ship

Offline Ryan Sims

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1522
  • Gender: Male
  • A vision of a gentle coast
    • Something
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2006, 03:06:58 PM »
I'm getting a 404 error.  Anyone else?
Ryan (minus sign) Sims dot com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryan-sims/

No single raindrop believes it's to blame for the flood.

Offline Ryan Sims

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1522
  • Gender: Male
  • A vision of a gentle coast
    • Something
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2006, 03:14:41 PM »
Thank you sir.

Edit:

I still find both of these samples to sound quite good.  I really can't chose a "better" sample.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 03:27:07 PM by slimer »
Ryan (minus sign) Sims dot com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryan-sims/

No single raindrop believes it's to blame for the flood.

Offline BWolf

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5966
  • Gender: Male
  • Always on the prowl...
    • Etree Trading List
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2006, 05:14:46 PM »
Again, I feel the same way.  In A, the bass is nice and full and in B its not lacking, but just not as rounded.  But on the otherhand, in B you can almost hear the guitar string "twang" and its really clear in the high/mids while in A just doesn't have that same clarity.  Not to say that A doesn't sound nice in the high/mids, but its just a litte less detailed.   But it would only be noticable with both side by side.  If I was just listening to one of these tapes, I would probably just comment on how good it sounds.  Both sound great and are excellent tapes.

+t for the comp.  well done!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 05:16:35 PM by BWolf »
"The best jazz is funky, and the best funk is jazzy" -SMOOTH
------------------------------------------------------
Neumann AK20/AK40s > LC3 > KM100 > Lunatec V3 (MS mod) > SD 722 or Microtrack 24/96  (Hi-Ho Silver Custom Interconnects)
------------------------------------------------------

kskreider

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2006, 06:35:17 PM »
I agree with bwolf.  A is more full on the bottom end and B is cleaner on the mid's and highs.  I also think that the difference is more noticeable or striking b/w the 16 bit samples than they are with the 24's. 

So this is just a comp of the A>D of the V3 vs. the A>D of the R4?  If you go analog out of the V3 with the gain turned up you are still going through the pre stage, right?

Offline Joe w.

  • esniper
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5035
  • Gender: Male
  • Turn JB Up
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2006, 09:18:09 PM »
I felt that A was a bit more detailed on the strings and felt better to me across the spectrum. More "airy" like a v3 than the 2nd. B felt a little more colored and warm to me.

listened on Waveterminal 24/96 > Sennheiser HD580's
2016 National Champions
five generations with an unlocked door and a loaded burglar alarm

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 13732
  • Gender: Male
  • Gunther Theile nailed it!
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2006, 09:30:49 AM »
Very hard call.  It's notable to me that the 16 bit samples are quite a bit darker sounding.  In fact, I found myself prefering the 24bit version of B (slightly warmer perhaps) and the 16 bit version of A (a bit brighter which offset the darkness of the 16bit file).  Encouraging. Thanks for the comp.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6703
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2006, 10:33:00 AM »
Interesting comments!  Especially those of you who are noticing (sometimes unexpected) differences between the 24bit and 16 bit sources.  My main speaker playback (24bit) has been down while I work on a problem adding a SATA drive (outta space.. gotta deal with it Now).  So listening has mainly been 16bit via headphones (hd280) for me.

I notice the greatest difference in the cymbals and in the loud vocal near the end of the clip. I'm going to bite my tongue on my prefs and why because I know which is which even without the label.

This source is from a mono PA with a pair of centrally mounted speakers above the stage.  There will be some stereo fill from the on-stage instruments, etc.  So while useful and interesting, this particular comp is lacking a detailed soundstage.  I believe that with a more complex soundstage the differences between the v3 and r09 A/Ds would be more dramatic.

I have another comp with a complex soundstage that shows a MUCH greater difference.. But those sources involved different mics and configs.  So I've been holding off on posting that one  due to the apples and oranges..
 

New product - Get your NEUMANN active mounting bars
Active microphone mounting bars for Schoeps and AKG, and Naiant AKG, ready to ship

Offline Phil

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 555
  • Gender: Male
  • Control for smilers can't be bought
    • BitTorrentMusic.com
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2006, 03:19:12 PM »
Playback = Wavelab 5 >M-Audio Delta DIO 2496 > AKG k240 headphones

Both sound very good with only extreme slight differences.

I couldn't pick out individual "sound" differences, but I did get a better feeling from source A.

I seemed to get the warm fuzzies on source A for both the 16bit and 24bit.  You know how sometimes you can just feel the music more so than hear the music? They both sounded great, but source A made my body "feel" better. Source B made me "feel" on edge slightly.  I believe this to be the difference in the AD pre.  IMHO, source A had less of a noise floor making it more Dynamic and quieter in spots thus giving it a more pleasant "feel".  Can someone else back me on "feeling" the music as to "hearing" the music or am I  :smoking2:

Once I had a preconceived notion as to which source I liked better I used ABX to verify it blindly and found that 14 out of the 20 listens, I chose source A to be the better sounding feeling source.

IMO- Source A = V3 AD   Source B = R4

If i'm wrong, i'm looking for an R-9 in the yard sale  :P
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 03:40:22 PM by Phil »
AKG 481 > V3 > MT2496 or VXpocket 440 > Laptop

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 13732
  • Gender: Male
  • Gunther Theile nailed it!
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2006, 03:36:26 PM »
Sounds like some phasing of the cymbals going on in both (all 4) samples.  Maybe it's just the cymbals rocking around as they are hit though.  The 'air'/transparency/ or extention at the top end is what I notice most beween the different bit depths of these samples, though that could just be more of a frequency response difference.  I'll be interested in looking deeper into some other 16 vs 24 bit (various dither) type comps.  

Interesting what you say about the mono PA. Soundstaging was something I was interested in listening for and wasn't overwelmed by either one, that explains why.

I've impressed myself and others with the soundstage of HTRF'ed 4060(matched)>MMA6k>R-09 via headphone playback & nearfields, but I haven't had the chance to compare that pre+A/D to another yet.

Ernesto's knocking.. off to put up hurricane shutters...  If the power is still on tomorrow and I can hear the stereo over the pounding rain, I'll listen again for "feel" inside my darkend cave.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline hyperplane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2006, 03:46:45 PM »
Thanks for the comp, Freelunch!

Question, since I'm an idiot regarding the V3... so the signal path for the R-09 went as such:

MG200 DIN > v3  [analog out] > r09 line in, 24/48, trim setting 8

For that type of usage (analog out of the V3), does the V3 digitize the signal, and THEN convert the signal back to analog for the analog outputs?  In other words, does the R-09 source go as such: mics > V3 Analog-to-Digital conversion > V3 Digital-to-Analog conversion > analog outputs > R-09.

Or does the V3 just "pass-through" the analog signal and act as a basic preamp (i.e. simply boosting/lowering the incoming level, with no AD/DA conversions) when you utilize its analog outputs?

What I think would also be interesting is running some type of splitter, as such:

Mics > splitter >
  V3 > microtrack 24/48 (or whatever "bit bucket")
  R-09 line in, 24/48, trim setting 8

It seems the above would maybe be a little more "scientific" since it would really isolate the V3's ADC vs. the R-09's internal ADC with no intermingling of the two.

Offline JasonSobel

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3329
  • Gender: Male
    • My show list
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2006, 03:49:30 PM »
For that type of usage (analog out of the V3), does the V3 digitize the signal, and THEN convert the signal back to analog for the analog outputs?  In other words, does the R-09 source go as such: mics > V3 Analog-to-Digital conversion > V3 Digital-to-Analog conversion > analog outputs > R-09.

Or does the V3 just "pass-through" the analog signal and act as a basic preamp (i.e. simply boosting/lowering the incoming level, with no AD/DA conversions) when you utilize its analog outputs?

The V3 analog outputs are straight from the pre-amp, i.e. the signal does not go through an A/D and then D/A stage.  it is, as you say, a "pass-through" and functions as a basic pre-amp.

Offline Phil

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 555
  • Gender: Male
  • Control for smilers can't be bought
    • BitTorrentMusic.com
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2006, 04:14:05 PM »
What we are really testing here is the A/D of the V3 Vs. A/D of the R-9. And from what I can tell they are pretty close, however owning a V3, I would like to think I can hear a difference.
AKG 481 > V3 > MT2496 or VXpocket 440 > Laptop

Offline hyperplane

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2006, 04:19:15 PM »
For that type of usage (analog out of the V3), does the V3 digitize the signal, and THEN convert the signal back to analog for the analog outputs?  In other words, does the R-09 source go as such: mics > V3 Analog-to-Digital conversion > V3 Digital-to-Analog conversion > analog outputs > R-09.

Or does the V3 just "pass-through" the analog signal and act as a basic preamp (i.e. simply boosting/lowering the incoming level, with no AD/DA conversions) when you utilize its analog outputs?

The V3 analog outputs are straight from the pre-amp, i.e. the signal does not go through an A/D and then D/A stage.  it is, as you say, a "pass-through" and functions as a basic pre-amp.

Thanks for that information, Jason, and +T.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6703
Re: [comp] V3 vs. R09 (revised)
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2006, 05:17:03 PM »
Phil, I agree with you that how it feels and how musical it sounds are more important than the more technical observations (which version has clearer cymbals, etc) that have been mostly made up until now..  Linn described it as how much a system made you tap your toe, etc.

Sounds like some phasing of the cymbals going on in both (all 4) samples.

It was a pretty simple kit but I didn't get to see much of it because Billy was standing in front of it.  I can't recall another show at that venue where I've noticed that cymbal phasing so I'm guessing something was funny about the mic'ing or something.

Quote
I've impressed myself and others with the soundstage of HTRF'ed 4060(matched)>MMA6k>R-09 via headphone playback & nearfields, but I haven't had the chance to compare that pre+A/D to another yet.

In those other recordings I mentioned above my primary concern about soundstage was depth front to back.  Obviously many combos can do the L-R imaging well but capturing the depth of the soundstage is much more difficult.  Plus you need a playback that can image it.

Quote
Ernesto's knocking.. off to put up hurricane shutters...  If the power is still on tomorrow and I can hear the stereo over the pounding rain, I'll listen again for "feel" inside my darkend cave.

Batten down the hatches and good luck!

New product - Get your NEUMANN active mounting bars
Active microphone mounting bars for Schoeps and AKG, and Naiant AKG, ready to ship

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.065 seconds with 59 queries.
© 2002-2020 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF