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Offline (((KB)))

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M/S box?
« on: October 29, 2006, 11:51:19 AM »
I know most people do M/S in post, but I was wondering if there was a somewhat inexpensive portable M/S box out there or do I have to buy a pre w/ an M/S option? I know Sanjay has an M/S AKG box for his stereo mic, but I believe it's vintage and is tough to find. Don't even say Soundfield ST350 'cause that's waaayyy over budget. Maybe there's a simple cable set-up hack?

-Kevin
C3000B>GP-DMIC20>ODL312>NJB3
One of my old fav's:
http://www.archive.org/details/antibalas2004-03-27

Offline Sanjay

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2006, 12:26:34 PM »
not sure about a box, but if you get a Sound Devices MP-2 its a great pre that does M/S.

and the AKG box is a specific pattern box for AKG stereo mics so it wouldn't work with other ones.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2006, 12:35:19 PM »
I know most people do M/S in post, but I was wondering if there was a somewhat inexpensive portable M/S box out there or do I have to buy a pre w/ an M/S option? I know Sanjay has an M/S AKG box for his stereo mic, but I believe it's vintage and is tough to find. Don't even say Soundfield ST350 'cause that's waaayyy over budget. Maybe there's a simple cable set-up hack?

-Kevin


Check this out I can build you a box with this transformer or you can build it your self

http://www.sowter.co.uk/specs/8379.htm
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline macdaddy

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2006, 12:38:06 PM »
not sure about a box, but if you get a Sound Devices MP-2 its a great pre that does M/S.

and the AKG box is a specific pattern box for AKG stereo mics so it wouldn't work with other ones.

does your controller box decode the m/s signal, sanjay..?

mine does not - it is the s42 (i think); anyway, it just sets the mic patterns, it doesnt decode...


-macdaddy ++

akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

Offline (((KB)))

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2006, 01:13:25 PM »
I know most people do M/S in post, but I was wondering if there was a somewhat inexpensive portable M/S box out there or do I have to buy a pre w/ an M/S option? I know Sanjay has an M/S AKG box for his stereo mic, but I believe it's vintage and is tough to find. Don't even say Soundfield ST350 'cause that's waaayyy over budget. Maybe there's a simple cable set-up hack?

-Kevin


Check this out I can build you a box with this transformer or you can build it your self

http://www.sowter.co.uk/specs/8379.htm

SWEET T+ now that's what I'm talkin' about! Do you think it will work without altering/ comprimizing sound quality? If you think it would work well, maybe I can have one of my friends make it since he's an electrical engineer. (I know I sound like a woosy but...) I can do basic shit, but I think this maybe more than I can handle. You should make some of these Chris, I bet alot of guys on here would buy 'em. I wonder what would be cost for materials?

not sure about a box, but if you get a Sound Devices MP-2 its a great pre that does M/S.

and the AKG box is a specific pattern box for AKG stereo mics so it wouldn't work with other ones.

Didn't know the the MP2 did M/S, Thanks. T+ too!

-Kevin

C3000B>GP-DMIC20>ODL312>NJB3
One of my old fav's:
http://www.archive.org/details/antibalas2004-03-27

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2006, 01:31:13 PM »
I know most people do M/S in post, but I was wondering if there was a somewhat inexpensive portable M/S box out there or do I have to buy a pre w/ an M/S option? I know Sanjay has an M/S AKG box for his stereo mic, but I believe it's vintage and is tough to find. Don't even say Soundfield ST350 'cause that's waaayyy over budget. Maybe there's a simple cable set-up hack?

-Kevin


Check this out I can build you a box with this transformer or you can build it your self

http://www.sowter.co.uk/specs/8379.htm

SWEET T+ now that's what I'm talkin' about! Do you think it will work without altering/ comprimizing sound quality? If you think it would work well, maybe I can have one of my friends make it since he's an electrical engineer. (I know I sound like a woosy but...) I can do basic shit, but I think this maybe more than I can handle. You should make some of these Chris, I bet alot of guys on here would buy 'em. I wonder what would be cost for materials?

not sure about a box, but if you get a Sound Devices MP-2 its a great pre that does M/S.

and the AKG box is a specific pattern box for AKG stereo mics so it wouldn't work with other ones.

Didn't know the the MP2 did M/S, Thanks. T+ too!

-Kevin



This company makes the transformers for replacing Neve consoles, so I would say the specs are very good as with any transformer its not 100% liner but, it should be as good as any transformer based mic pre on the market today.
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline (((KB)))

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2006, 01:39:38 PM »
I think we maybe onto something here. Sent the link to my friend Nick Z. who's working on his "V2 killer project". This would be a sweet addition to his pre he's making. I wonder what parts Grace uses for the M/S mod they do for the V3?

-Kevin
C3000B>GP-DMIC20>ODL312>NJB3
One of my old fav's:
http://www.archive.org/details/antibalas2004-03-27

Offline Sanjay

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2006, 01:43:50 PM »
. I wonder what parts Grace uses for the M/S mod they do for the V3?

-Kevin

midside is built into every v3, the mod simply puts the jumper on the outside instead of the inside to activate it.
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Offline (((KB)))

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2006, 02:14:31 PM »
. I wonder what parts Grace uses for the M/S mod they do for the V3?

-Kevin

midside is built into every v3, the mod simply puts the jumper on the outside instead of the inside to activate it.

Interesting. I wonder what decoder they use?

Well, as far as the DIY that Chis mentioned, I totalled up everything (not inc. shipping, tax of course):

8379 Mid-Side Microphone Decoder 31.16
Neutrik NC3FPP XLR Panel Mount 1.20 (x2) 2.40
Neutrik NC3MPP XLR Panel Mount 1.20 (x2) 2.40
Hammond 1591DSBK Styrene Plastic Case $5.42

$41.38

anything else? Maybe a power-on LED? (I have a bunch of those anyway)

Not sure how the thing would be powered tho... phantom power? Shows 'ya how much I know.  ::)

Shit, I'd put-up cash just to see this bad boy in action!  ;D

Will be getting Multi-pattern LD's in like a week so that's why I was wondering what was actually doable.

-K
C3000B>GP-DMIC20>ODL312>NJB3
One of my old fav's:
http://www.archive.org/details/antibalas2004-03-27

Offline (((KB)))

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2006, 02:26:39 PM »
Found this kit... not sure if it has better parts or whatnot... I'd probably swap out the 1/4's for xlrs if possible. Nice project enclosure too.

http://www.paia.com/msdecode.htm

2080k    MS Stereo Decoder Kit includes
          all electronic parts, circuit board,
          1/4" phone jacks, controls and knobs.
          Does not include power supply................ us$33.75 (5.00)

9506c    Black anodized and legended MS Mic case
          including all hardware ...................... us$ 25.50 (7.00)

-K
C3000B>GP-DMIC20>ODL312>NJB3
One of my old fav's:
http://www.archive.org/details/antibalas2004-03-27

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2006, 02:52:40 PM »
 :D :D :D I haven't seen Paia in a long time (like 20 years).  They've been around since electricity.  I'm sure that kit is decent and you can probably upgrade any of the parts - better caps and metal film resistors, etc.  Though, for the price I'd go for that transformer Chris posted..
The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

Offline Celac

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2006, 03:01:03 PM »
Hi,
The transformer is a passive solution, and a high quality transformer (Jensen, Cinemag, Lundahl etc.) can provide excellent audio quality.  Using the transformer also limits the amount of  "diy" you would have to do. Some people lIke transformer "color" and some don't. It seems to me though that after the preamp is a better place for the decoder because you can use gain adjustments on the pre to vary the width of the stereo field.  See http://www.peterengh.com/ for an nice (but much more expensive) pre-made solution.
Celac.
...can't get enough of nothing!

Did your friend consider that maybe he got a basically accurate recording of a bad P.A. system and/or a terrible-sounding performance venue? When you aim good microphones at ugly sound, the resulting recording will not be beautiful.
DSatz

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2006, 03:23:34 PM »
Found this kit... not sure if it has better parts or whatnot... I'd probably swap out the 1/4's for xlrs if possible. Nice project enclosure too.

http://www.paia.com/msdecode.htm

2080k    MS Stereo Decoder Kit includes
          all electronic parts, circuit board,
          1/4" phone jacks, controls and knobs.
          Does not include power supply................ us$33.75 (5.00)

9506c    Black anodized and legended MS Mic case
          including all hardware ...................... us$ 25.50 (7.00)

-K

The design very good I would ditch the ne5532, and go with Burrbrown OPA2227PA instead. This is a much better chip the same one I use in some of my preamps. I would as has been suggested ditch the non metal film caps, and go with metal film or mylar.The same goes for the carbon resistors. I think for $33.00 you can not go wrong. You will have to put about $30.00 in parts to upgrade it. I would use balancing transformers on the input to convert it to balanced in/ out (this would not require you to scrap the circuit board as they can be mounted external of the circuit board you will need 4 transformers. Or you could use IC's to create a differentially balanced input and output, if your looking for a total flat response then that would be the way to go. The only problem is you would have to ditch the board and use a proto board and use the schematic at Paia.  Then you will have to add a phantom circuit the other thing that slightly concerns me is gain. I don't know about the amount of gain this system offers. You should also include a VU circuit, and a must would be passive 20db input pads. and a phase reverse switch. Good luck this sounds like a fun project.
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline (((KB)))

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2006, 03:39:05 PM »
Hi,
The transformer is a passive solution, and a high quality transformer (Jensen, Cinemag, Lundahl etc.) can provide excellent audio quality.  Using the transformer also limits the amount of  "diy" you would have to do. Some people lIke transformer "color" and some don't. It seems to me though that after the preamp is a better place for the decoder because you can use gain adjustments on the pre to vary the width of the stereo field.  See http://www.peterengh.com/ for an nice (but much more expensive) pre-made solution.
Celac.
WOW, that sonic orbit looks nice! T+

-K

EDIT: for $388? I'd go buy a MP2 instead.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2006, 03:46:41 PM by (((KB))) »
C3000B>GP-DMIC20>ODL312>NJB3
One of my old fav's:
http://www.archive.org/details/antibalas2004-03-27

Offline Celac

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Re: M/S box?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2006, 06:47:19 PM »

WOW, that sonic orbit looks nice! T+

-K

EDIT: for $388? I'd go buy a MP2 instead.

Yep,
I mentioned it was expensive. Sure looks nice though eh? That company builds soluitons for the eng/efp market and the stuff is priced for that market.  Of course, if you price out building a M/S matrix w/ Jensens (and pay someone skilled to put it together) it could get costly in a hurry.  Anyway, that particular product may not your best solution, but extracting l/r from m/s after the pre has some advantages. (split to different recorders and gives you contol over the stereo field)  I have an MP2. I like it and the M/S feature is well implemented but I know that as a pre it is not everyones favorite "flavor".  Building the box allows you do add M/S decode to what ever flavor you like.  I was not aware that they could be had in the 300$ range used.  It is a very well built unit and the Sound Devices folks are really nice.  ...just don't look at the meter in the dark.
Celac.
...can't get enough of nothing!

Did your friend consider that maybe he got a basically accurate recording of a bad P.A. system and/or a terrible-sounding performance venue? When you aim good microphones at ugly sound, the resulting recording will not be beautiful.
DSatz

 

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