Topic: Phantom Power - ins/outs (NAK specific)

[Galen]

I believe I have a cursory understanding at this point of phantom power - but not completely. My main concern is that the possibility of a reduction of the maximum sound pressure level which the microphone can handle without overload (distortion) caused by using Phantom Power.

I am thinking of purchasing a modified pair of Franken-NAKS from a fellow TS taper. He states they are 48v phantom powered. The mics are powered by a PM4 which apparently powers it, however, there is no battery in it. Now, my experience with mics is that they need to have a battery to properly power the mics so they can handle the max SPL & to get signal to the recorder in the first place. I have a pait of NAK CM300s now, un-modded, & they of course use batteries as do the rest of my mics.

So, how does this phantom power work? Will it work as good as a battery-powered mic? Would the mics drain power from my recorder's batteries (PCM-M1, DA-R100 (DAT) or R-09)? Is there a chance I would fry my M1 if I went mic-in (I have a modded mic-in from Oade)?

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[Roving Sign]

I believe I have a cursory understanding at this point of phantom power - but not completely. My main concern is that the possibility of a reduction of the maximum sound pressure level which the microphone can handle without overload (distortion) caused by using Phantom Power.

I am thinking of purchasing a modified pair of Franken-NAKS from a fellow TS taper. He states they are 48v phantom powered. The mics are powered by a PM4 which apparently powers it, however, there is no battery in it. Now, my experience with mics is that they need to have a battery to properly power the mics so they can handle the max SPL & to get signal to the recorder in the first place. I have a pait of NAK CM300s now, un-modded, & they of course use batteries as do the rest of my mics.

So, how does this phantom power work? Will it work as good as a battery-powered mic? Would the mics drain power from my recorder's batteries (PCM-M1, DA-R100 (DAT) or R-09)?

Thanks.

For clarity - "Franken-Naks" are modified Nakamichi 300 mics - the stock mic runs on a 9V batttery...

The actual power comes from a mixer or other phantom supply - not the Samson PM4...

The Franken-Nak mod eliminates the mic body, battery and most of the electronics. The required Samson PM4 module converts 48 to 10V. The mod also changes the way power is delivered to the capsule (i.e. it seperates the audio signal and battery power, which are on the same wire on the stock mic) I think the seperation of the capsule power and the audio signal is the main benefit of this mod...

The capsule only specs to 9Vs - and I think Chris Church has demonstrated that there are no gains for running a higher voltage to the cap...

[Galen]

So since the PM4 does not power the mics I would need a pre amp in order to use the mics to run into a DAT or R09?

And yeah the special-order batteries for my NAK CM300's (un-modded) are only 9v.

I realize these Q's may seem rather newbie but this is a very gray area for me. All help is appreciated.

[Roving Sign]

So since the PM4 does not power the mics I would need a pre amp in order to use the mics to run into a DAT or R09?

And yeah the special-order batteries for my NAK CM300's (un-modded) are only 9v.

I realize these Q's may seem rather newbie but this is a very gray area for me. All help is appreciated.

Yes - with Franken Naks your will need a preamp and phantom power...

But consider - The "Franken-Nak" isnt the best approach IMO - one guy (who had certain goals) came up with it and lots of folks copied it without considering certain impracitcal features...(Like having to have a 48V phantom supply to run the PM4 - which just converts it to 10 V anyway...plus the Samsons are kind of expensive - if you can find them!)

A better approach (IMO) would be using a 3 wire 9V battery box - advantage of seperating mic power and audio signal...but can be powered by 9V snap-ons...probably dont need a preamp with this approach...(might depend on your battery box design)

[Galen]

Hmm... thanks for clarifying this for me. I was under the wrong impression as I did not fully understand this issue. Since I would only be using this for stealth situations this sounds like a bitch to get it all in - even w/o the pre. Thanks.

[Ryan Sims]

I'm going to break this down a little further in hopes to make it more clear.

The Samson PM4 is a module which steps down phantom power's 48 volts to ~9 so that, in this case, the modified mic can handle it. 
The PM4 snaps on to a mini-xlr connector usually, but, if I recall correctly, many of the users' here Franken-Naks have the module hardwired. 

I agree with Roving Sign, that, if you want to use these for stealth only, a 3-wire battery box is the best bet, using DAT or R-09.  These themselves take (usually) left and right mini-xlr in and output on a stereo miniplug.  The advantage to this is that it still provides the mics with that ~9 volts of neccessary power, but is much smaller, and the mini-xlrs by themselves are much smaller than the PM4. 

I hope that helps.

[Galen]

Thanks, great info. Where would I find this 3 wired battery box? I do not know enough about electronics to do it myself....

The mics in question have the PM4 already on them... so, for that, I would need like a Denecks pre w/XLR connections > stereo mini plug?

[Roving Sign]

Thanks, great info. Where would I find this 3 wired battery box? I do not know enough about electronics to do it myself....

The mics in question have the PM4 already on them... so, for that, I would need like a Denecks pre w/XLR connections > stereo mini plug?

Battery Box > Church-Audio...Mr Church is a member here...

To run the PM4s - You would need a phantom device - like Deneke PS2...then to the AD-20...

[Galen]

Ok... so, the NAKs (modded) would look something like this for lineage?

NAKS/mod > active cables > PM4 > Deneck PM2 > AD-20 > 1/8" > recorder

Man, that seems like a massively insane set up to attempt to stealth.

[Roving Sign]

Ok... so, the NAKs (modded) would look something like this for lineage?

NAKS/mod > active cables > PM4 > Deneck PM2 > AD-20 > 1/8" > recorder

Man, that seems like a massively insane set up to attempt to stealth.

Yeah - better would be

Naks > Batt Box > Recorder

[Galen]

So, instead of that massive rig, it would be possible to go: NAKS>battery box>recorder? Mentioned the Church... possible to do that using the PM4 too?

Ok... so, the NAKs (modded) would look something like this for lineage?

NAKS/mod > active cables > PM4 > Deneck PM2 > AD-20 > 1/8" > recorder

Man, that seems like a massively insane set up to attempt to stealth.

Yeah - better would be

Naks > Batt Box > Recorder

[Roving Sign]

So, instead of that massive rig, it would be possible to go: NAKS>battery box>recorder? Mentioned the Church... possible to do that using the PM4 too?

Ok... so, the NAKs (modded) would look something like this for lineage?

NAKS/mod > active cables > PM4 > Deneck PM2 > AD-20 > 1/8" > recorder

Man, that seems like a massively insane set up to attempt to stealth.

Yeah - better would be

Naks > Batt Box > Recorder

No need for the PM4...you can probably use the existing mini-XLR wiring on the modded NAKs (most of the mods are hardwired at the capsule end and terminate in a mini-XLR, that goes into the PM4...)

Capsule > mini XLR > battbox > recorder

[Galen]

Anyone know what bbox would work?

[M]

I dont' think that there is a marketed 3-wire batt box....what I mean is you need to commission somebody to build one for you.

I use and would recommend the st9100 for this purpose.  It will give you the 3-wire powering you need and the preamp section is nice too. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,79928.0.html

[Ryan Sims]

FWIW, when I was looking for my 3-wire box, I posted an ISO in the Yard Sale and got multiple replies within just a couple hours.