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Author Topic: How to get a show out...  (Read 5665 times)

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Offline Lee

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Re:How to get a show out...
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2003, 05:36:25 PM »
I don't subscribe to the whole fades thing, but that's just me.  When the technology catches up to allow me to put an entire show on one continuous medium (i.e. DVD-Audio, Hard disk, whatever) I don't want the fades left over from where someone had to put a disc cut.  Give me the "rough cut" of the show tracked out for disc, that's all I ask.

Fading properly - as I do - doesn't prevent you from going back and recompiling to put the complete show onto one continuous medium.

Ditto, JR, the ETree tracking guidelines are a good place to start.

just curious, what do you define as fading "properly?"  Just fade out at the end of a set?

My concern is if a set runs over 74 minutes, people putting a fade at the disc cut.  That just bothers me
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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fading ad nauseum
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2003, 07:31:27 PM »
just curious, what do you define as fading "properly?"  Just fade-out at the end of a set?

My concern is if a set runs over 74 minutes, people putting a fade at the disc cut.  That just bothers me

A proper fade, IMO, fades in at the beginning and out at the end of a set so there isn't music missing.  This ideally should be done within the 74min mark.  But I was referring specifically to a multi-disc set fading out at the end of the first disc and fading in at the start the second disc such that you can recompile the WAVs seamlessly - as though the fades were never there.  This is a proper fade, IMO, i.e. non-destructive.

I've seen a lot of people split a set between two discs so that it cannot be recompiled seamlessly.  For example:  Cut a 90min set at the 60min mark.  That leaves a 60min first disc and a 30min second disc.  For the sake of simplicity, let's assume they fade-out the last 1 minute on the first disc and fade-in the first 1 minute on the second disc.  (Of course, no one would fade-in/out a full minute, but it makes it easier to illustrate the problem.)  More listenable, sure, but there's a problem:  you can't recompile the WAVs seamlessly.  The fades will always be a part of the recompiled WAVs.  It will recompile fine for the first 59min, then there will be a fade-out from 59min - 60min, followed by a fade-in from 60min - 61min, and finally will recompile fine from 61min - 90min.  This is a destructive fade-in/out.

Visually, the two situations look like this.  Start at 0 minutes on the left, 90 minutes on the right.  A = the 1min fade-out on the first disc, B = the 1min fade-in on the second disc.
DESTRUCTIVE FADE
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------------CD1-WAVs-------------------------A
                                                            B--------CD2-WAVs---------
As you can see, the two discs cannot be recompiled seamlessly, the fade-in (A) and fade-out (B) will always remain in the recompiled WAVs:
DESTRUCTIVE FADE, RE-COMPILED WITH FADES
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------------CD1-WAVs-------------------------AB--------CD2-WAVs---------
Or, if we remove the fades outright, we're now missing the A/B fade content in our re-compiled WAV:
DESTRUCTIVE FADE, RECOMPILED W/O FADES
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------------CD1-WAVs-------------------------  --------CD2-WAVs---------
And now, the example of non-destructive fades - these fades overlap one another precisely, so we can remove the fades outright and still recompile the WAV seamlessly.  Sure, we're duplicating the fade content, but that doesn't really matter IMO - far more important to allow for seamless WAV recompilation. 
NON-DESTRUCTIVE FADE
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------CD1-WAVs-recompile-OK-------------------A
                                                           B---CD2-WAVs-recompile-OK--
As you can see, with a non-destructive fade, if you remove the fade-in (A) and fade-out (B) and recompile, you're left with only the complete set of unedited music (i.e. no fades in the recompilation), no missing content:
NON-DESTRUCTIVE FADE RECOMPILED
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------CD1-WAVs-recompile-OK----------------------CD2-WAVs-recompile-OK--
Phew.  Anyone who read all that...needs to get a life!   :D
« Last Edit: October 22, 2005, 12:47:29 PM by Brian Skalinder »
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Offline John R

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Re:How to get a show out...
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2003, 12:38:04 AM »
does anyone actually use 74's anymore?

jr
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:How to get a show out...
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2003, 04:36:21 AM »
does anyone actually use 74's anymore?

I don't use 'em, but I track everything to 74min, unless the show will fit on a single 80.  Just habit, I guess...
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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:How to get a show out...
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2003, 06:11:54 AM »
i can't even find them in stores, 74 that is

Offline Lee

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Re:fading ad nauseum
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2003, 03:50:51 PM »
just curious, what do you define as fading "properly?"  Just fade-out at the end of a set?

My concern is if a set runs over 74 minutes, people putting a fade at the disc cut.  That just bothers me

A proper fade, IMO, fades in at the beginning and out at the end of a set so there isn't music missing.  This ideally should be done within the 74min mark.  But I was referring specifically to a multi-disc set fading out at the end of the first disc and fading in at the start the second disc such that you can recompile the WAVs seamlessly - as though the fades were never there.  This is a proper fade, IMO.

I've seen a lot of people split a set between two discs so that it cannot be recompiled seamlessly.  For example:  Cut a 90min set at the 60min mark.  That leaves a 60min first disc and a 30min second disc.  For the sake of simplicity, let's assume they fade-out the last 1 minute on the first disc and fade-in the first 1 minute on the second disc.  (Of course, no one would fade-in/out a full minute, but it makes it easier to illustrate the problem.)  More listenable, sure, but there's a problem:  you can't recompile the WAVs seamlessly.  The fades will always be a part of the recompiled WAVs.  It will recompile fine for the first 59min, then there will be a fade-out from 59min - 60min, followed by a fade-in from 60min - 61min, and finally will recompile fine from 61min - 90min.  This I define as an improper fade-in/out.

Visually, the two situations look like this.  Start at 0 minutes on the left, 90 minutes on the right.  A = the 1min fade-out on the first disc, B = the 1min fade-in on the second disc.


IMPROPER FADE
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------------CD1-WAVs-------------------------A
                                                            B--------CD2-WAVs---------
As you can see, the two discs cannot be recompiled seamlessly, the fade-in (A) and fade-out (B) will always remain in the recompiled WAVs.

PROPER FADE
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------CD1-WAVs-recompile-OK-------------------A
                                                           B---CD2-WAVs-recompile-OK--
As you can see, with a proper fade, if you remove the fade-in (A) and fade-out (B) and recompile, you're left with only the complete set of unedited music (i.e. no fades in the recompilation):
0....5...10...15...20...25...30...35...40...45...50...55...60...65...70...75...80...90
--------------------CD1-WAVs-recompile-OK-------------------
                                                            ---CD2-WAVs-recompile-OK--
Phew.  Anyone who read all that...needs to get a life!   :D

Guess I need a life.  That makes sense, I guess I'm just too lazy to do fades.  ;)

+T Skalinder, you should put that in the archive.  "The TS.com standard / Skalinder method for applying fades"
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Offline jhirte

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Re:How to get a show out...
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2003, 04:35:52 PM »
Doesn't matter man, its another source. I try to get all the sources for shows as possible!! Maybe I'm just a freak! heeh.

-Jim

Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:How to get a show out...
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2003, 05:46:06 PM »
if it's anything good, send it to me and I'll get it out for you ;D

 

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