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Offline salmonite

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split omnis onstage ?'s
« on: August 21, 2007, 10:37:13 AM »
Never run onstage before, and was just wondering what would be a good seperation for onstage omnis. I was thinking of maybe one at each side of the bands setup on the front of the stage. I will also be running some cards on the front of the stage prob. in an xy DFC. any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

-Tyler

Offline Shawn

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2007, 10:41:47 AM »
IME splts on stage don't need to be very large at all. It becomes really easy to introduce a "hole in the middle" sort of effect. Most of my on-stage experience is for small jazz groups that typically play on pretty small stages. I've been very happy with splits under 2 feet. If the band were on a larger stage and thus more spread out a larger split might work.

Offline salmonite

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2007, 10:46:17 AM »
Cool,

so would DFC w/ a 2ft. spread at about 24-30" height just about do the trick?

+T for the quick response ;D

Offline Shawn

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2007, 10:55:51 AM »
that's usually how I do it.

my only other pieces of advice about on-stage taping
1) be conscious of the first row. If there are plenty of talkers in the front row you'll pick up that with omnis.
2) don't get too close to the drums. I've made more than one on-stage recording that sounded like a drummer's practice tape with a band playing in the background. ;D

oh and be ready to make a freaking tape with some serious stereo image. I love on-stage recording.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 12:48:24 PM by Shawn »

Offline salmonite

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2007, 11:20:15 AM »
Cool, thanks much Shawn.

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2007, 11:25:25 AM »
I've had good results with a 4 to 5 foot split.
this was jazz/funk/improv/space group (for lack of a better term), maybe 5 or 6 players on a fairly small stage.

the key to running on-stage, regardless of cards/omnis/sub/cards/whatever polar pattern you might choose, is to be very aware of where the mics are in relation to drums, amps, etc, etc.  You are going to be much closer to the individual sound sources, so it can be a bit tricky to get a good mix of instruments.  (i.e. its very easy to get too much drums, as mentioned above.  but you also don't want to setup right next to the guitar amp, for similar reasons).

in situations where you don't have much choice for setup, like if you're going to be closer to the drums than you'd like, I've had good results running cards ORTF.  the drums will then be hitting the mics not very on-axis, and will therefore be attenuated a bit, which helps with the overall mix.  of course, with omnis, you don't really have that kind of option, so it's even more critical that you get the mic placement right.

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2007, 11:42:34 AM »
When running omni split w/ cards in the center, I'd space at least 3ft on each side of the center mics. If you are too close to the center, you'll lose most of the benefit the 4 mic mix will give to the stereo image.

Don't be too afraid of over-spreading them. It is much more important to be properly placed in relation to the musicians. A slightly un-even spacing is also ok if it will get you away from the drum kit and closer to anything softer(or unamplified)

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Offline flipp

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2007, 12:20:25 PM »
One other thing, be very careful what the stage is made of and what footwear the perfomer(s) is/are wearing. I tape a solo artist quite frequently who usually plays on a carpeted stage and is either barefoot or in flipflops. Once I recorded him on an elevated bare wooden stage and he had cowboy boots on. Sounds like a friggin metronome is inches away from the mics and renders the recording unlistenable.

Offline dean

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2007, 12:35:07 PM »
QFT to everything said thus far.  Re:  stage vibration, use shocks if at all possible.  I've had a recording ruined by a bouncy stage and mega bass & drums.  Shocks would've save the day.

Basically, run a spread based on the spread of the band, and don't get too close to the drums if at all possible.

Also, if you have a baffle (jecklin disc or similar), skip the cards and just run the omni's split 17 cm. around the baffle.  I'm getting amazing results that way.  But short of the no shock ruination, I've never had a bad onstage pull.  It's really hard to go wrong running on stage, and once you start you'll be addicted.  I'm almost never happy with stack pulls anymore...
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Offline salmonite

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2007, 12:38:57 PM »
Thanks for all the useful info guys, all of this will be taken into account.
+T all around

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2007, 12:42:39 PM »
I've been playing with split omnis and subcards a lot this summer.. and liking it!

As others have mentioned the drummer can really make or break the recording.  There is one local drummer who puts pillows in his kick drum when he plays with one band I often record..  That works great and his kit is not a problem. When he plays in another band the pillows stay at home and his kick becomes an absolute monster of pressure wave. It is a problem even with the mics near the ceiling, 7.5' up. It is even a smallish kickdrum.  Not sure how much windscreens help in that situation but I suspect they might. So be prepared to take drastic action in regard to position if you have a loud drummer..  Placing your mics so a monitor/performer/etc blocks the direct line of sight from an overly loud instrument can help a lot.

Another weirdness to consider.. If you have a trumpet player on the left and he is blowing across the stage to the other side (rather than straight ahead), it will tend to image in your right mic. Not a huge deal but something to keep in mind when considering your soundstage and how it will balance out.

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Offline salmonite

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2007, 12:57:47 PM »
"Another weirdness to consider.. If you have a trumpet player on the left and he is blowing across the stage to the other side (rather than straight ahead), it will tend to image in your right mic. Not a huge deal but something to keep in mind when considering your soundstage and how it will balance out."

Thanks for this info. There will be some wind instrumentation @ one of the shows I will be running at.

Offline dean

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2007, 01:30:37 PM »
"Another weirdness to consider.. If you have a trumpet player on the left and he is blowing across the stage to the other side (rather than straight ahead), it will tend to image in your right mic. Not a huge deal but something to keep in mind when considering your soundstage and how it will balance out."

Thanks for this info. There will be some wind instrumentation @ one of the shows I will be running at.


That'll mostly apply to trumpet and like instruments.  That won't happen with reeds, generally.  So no worries with sax, clarinet, etc...  Even trombones don't "throw" their waves like a trumpet/coronet/etc, though the effect is still a bit present.
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Offline beanstalk

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2007, 04:05:37 PM »
I personally won't go beyond 5 feet spliting. 1 to 5 feet, I found works great. I had great results at 5 feet. At 1 show I split 3.5 for the 1st set and 5 for the 2nd. Drums in the middle of the stage up front line with the guitar and b3, mics on either side of the kit. It was a 3 piece jazz band and came out well. Louder music might have made it tough with the mics so close to the kit though.
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Offline dean

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2007, 04:12:06 PM »
I personally won't go beyond 5 feet spliting. 1 to 5 feet, I found works great. I had great results at 5 feet. At 1 show I split 3.5 for the 1st set and 5 for the 2nd. Drums in the middle of the stage up front line with the guitar and b3, mics on either side of the kit. It was a 3 piece jazz band and came out well. Louder music might have made it tough with the mics so close to the kit though.

Typically I wouldn't go more than 6' on stage, myself.  That's a good rule of thumb. 

But the exception always proves the rule, right?  One of my best on stage pulls is a 10' split.  But in this situation, it was a rock band and they were well spread out across the stage - they were likely split about 15', so I was still "within" the band itself.  So maybe the rule of thumb is "spread as wide as seems reasonable as long as you stay within the band," or something like that...  YMMV
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Offline cmquinn

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2007, 04:17:01 PM »
Never run onstage before, and was just wondering what would be a good seperation for onstage omnis. I was thinking of maybe one at each side of the bands setup on the front of the stage. I will also be running some cards on the front of the stage prob. in an xy DFC. any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

-Tyler

Did Living Daylights a few years back with AKG414s as split omnis. Placed both mics about 8 ft apart. One between sax and drums on between bass and drums. When you listen on home stereo through speakers you can tell where each band member was.

Offline cfox

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2007, 05:33:40 PM »
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Offline boojum

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2007, 06:36:55 PM »
This is always a good starting point: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/.   Go to Stereo Techniques.  It is all there.

Cheers
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Offline PH

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2007, 05:28:07 AM »
I agree with those in the larger spread camp. I like to get to the outside edge of stage setup, to be just inside the edge of the band on both sides of the stage, and somewhere in the middle area between the audience, pa, and stage setup. This is only true if you are also running a SBD mix of some sort to blend with later. Without that, it will take the perfect placement to pull a good balanced mix out of your omni recording. In that case, I would suggest Card or Subcard with a modest split of 1-3' max. As has been said, placement is key and IME it takes major skill to pull off really good 2-track stage tapes. Not only that, but the right band and right stage setup.

For bluegrass and small club shows, I usaully run my CCM5's in card setting and on the ORTF bar and clamp it to the front side of the center vocal mic stand or put up a small stand in front of that and just below instrument height, pointed upwards about 30 degrees. That seems to work really well for me and it blends well with the flat SBD feeds. Having the mics centered and so close to sound source usually reduces the phase issues of blending significantly.

Sounds crazy, but the best place to put some killer LD omni's onstage would be equal distance on either side of the drummer, about 5' high and right in the middle of the stage and band. I would love to find a band that will let me do that!

One time at a Del McCoury instore show at a local bookstore, they were using one mic and one stand since it was such a small stage. AT4033.
I clamped my CCM5's directly underneath the 4033 on the same stand, ran them card/ortf. Oh Momma!
The best part was that after the first song, the PA was crackling so they just turned it off and played the rest of the set unamplified. Out of habit, they kept playing around the mics just as they always would. Having Del lean in and sing directly into the Schoeps at 18 inches or less is one my all time taping highlights.

Don't be afraid to get those mics onstage. That's the best place for them.
Cheers, Phil
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 05:29:32 PM by nashphil »

Offline fandelive

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2020, 12:39:28 AM »
Exhuming this very interesting topic. I might try onstage omnis myself tomorrow for the first time.

You're talking about the ideal width both mics need to be split apart to get a good stereo separation, but what about the height? Would rising them up at waist level be enough? Chest, head, or even higher?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 01:00:49 AM by fandelive »
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Offline morst

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2020, 03:26:12 AM »
Exhuming this very interesting topic. I might try onstage omnis myself tomorrow for the first time.

You're talking about the ideal width both mics need to be split apart to get a good stereo separation, but what about the height? Would rising them up at waist level be enough? Chest, head, or even higher?
When I run onstage (I don't have omni mics but I do have wide-pattern cardioids, aka open cardioid, hypocardioid, subcardioid etc) and I have a direct sound board feed available, I usually put the onstage mics as LOW as I can, in order to avoid the vocal monitor wedges. My goal when running on stage is to get the sound of the instruments with the stage mics, and let the direct board feed enhance (or carry) the vocals.
This might not work with what you wish to record, but it is good for rock & roll!



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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2020, 01:35:30 PM »
Low works fine.  I've run boundary mounted omni taped to the floor surface itself at times, as long as there is no problem with floor vibrations and foot stomps as mentioned previously.  Helps to get the mics higher if there are acoustic instruments which are amplified and you are trying to pick up the direct acoustic radiation from them which is not super energetic in comparison to the sound level in the room.

Keep in mind that omnis on-stage will be behaving not only in a time-of-arrival way (which is what the stereo image calculators and tables and stereo configuration suggestions are based upon), but also in a level-difference stereo manor due to sources being significantly closer to one microphone or the other.  That means that the typical suggestions for spacing omnis when used at a distance (like in the center of the room or back at the board) don't necessarily apply in the same way and you'll want to consider how loud each source on stage is and how that relates to the microphone positions.

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2020, 01:39:20 PM »
I've run very sucessfully with a ceiling mount with about 6' separation and about 5' from the stage lip with about a meter

Offline fandelive

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2020, 07:36:00 AM »
Stage setup for tonight: 2x DPA 4061 at knees height. XY.

Edit: I think I'm gonna replace those omnis with cards. Sennheiser MKE's.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 08:18:27 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline fandelive

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Re: split omnis onstage ?'s
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2020, 07:37:38 AM »
Balcony setup: 2x at853 XY (middle of the bar) + 2x dpa4060 AB (at each ends of the bar).
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

 

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