Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Preamp for the R-09  (Read 7203 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr.Fantasy

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus saves...
Preamp for the R-09
« on: November 21, 2007, 01:43:03 PM »
I need some recommendations for a good preamp to put in front of my R-09...

I did my first recording the other night....just with the R-09 and some crappy mics of my buddies....

Any recommendations would be very greatly appreciated...

Or if someone would tell me some pre's to investigate....

I am really new to taping but I am REALLY new to the pre amp....
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline mrruin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 117
  • Gender: Male
  • Team Europe
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 01:46:51 PM »
my recommendation would be Church Audio's ST 9100. Small, with great sound and excellent value for money. Get the package with his mics and you are good to go with an awesome starter set for a low price. The R09 is the perfect recorder for that setup.
AT 943/h or U853/c > 3 wire "crown-royal" BB > ST 9100 preamp v2.0 > R-09
my shows: http://db.etree.org/mrruin *updated April 2nd 2007*
-------------
Team Europe

Offline bgalizio

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3556
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/spyboychoir
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2007, 02:11:06 PM »
Budget?

easy jim

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2007, 02:18:20 PM »
Pre amp choice should also be somewhat conditioned by the mics you will be using.  The biggest component of a rig's 'sound' is the mic/pre combo, followed by A>D/capture.  The Church Pre might be appropriate if you're just going to be using smaller/stealth oriented mics.  For more high end mics, you want to look into getting a pre that will compliemnt the mics (as well as have the right connections/output to feed your r-09).

So, what kind of mics do expect to be using with the pre?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 02:20:44 PM by easyjim »

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2007, 02:34:17 PM »
church pre...., good no matter whats in front of it.  w/an outboard phantom supply feeding the 9100, it sounds DAMN GOOD.

other than that..., my next step would be to drop 7 bills on an apogee Mini-MP

Offline Mr.Fantasy

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus saves...
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 02:41:01 PM »
My actual budget is $3000...

See threads from a few months ago where I asked for commendations on mics... HERE

Couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on anything until I needed a recorder for my college classes...so I thought it was a good excuse to buy one that could do a little more than that 8)

But, like I was saying, I couldn't pull the trigger because I really didn't (and still don't) know enough about this hobby to invest that much money...as in I don't think I would spend it properly...or I would regret it when I wasn't satisfied....

So I decided that I am going to make a little...Learners Rig....which is two prong...

1)something to get me to where I am making good recordings in the field.....

2)Processing these recordings on my computer...to track split and burn, as well as be able to tweak a little if there is something I am not happy with...


My large budget mics are going to be SKM184's I think...

I have my dads old set of Nak Cm300s....he saw something like 168 shows with Jerry, and that is pretty good for a guy living in Oklahoma....and he has got all his old masters which I am slowly transferring to Cds....

But the Naks are not modded for phantom.......

So is my situation convoluted enough for you?
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline Belexes

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 02:42:48 PM »
I like the ST-9100 in front of the R-09 and it's a wonderful combo.  I give the ST-9100 high marks.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 02:49:15 PM by Belexes »
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline Will_S

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2007, 03:07:44 PM »
My large budget mics are going to be SKM184's I think...

In that case I'd NOT recommend the Church preamp.  Apparently there are issues "unbalancing" these mics to go into the kind of input the 9100 has.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92069.msg1259439.html#msg1259439


I have my dads old set of Nak Cm300s....he saw something like 168 shows with Jerry, and that is pretty good for a guy living in Oklahoma....and he has got all his old masters which I am slowly transferring to Cds....

But the Naks are not modded for phantom.......

Perfect!  Then no need to bother with a Phantom power adapter, and probably no need to bother with a preamp just yet.  I'd pick up a stereo XLR(F) to 1/8" stereo mini cable and run the Naks straight into your R09 for a while.  (If the Naks have the old XLR > 1/4" cables, you'll need some new mic cables too, or you can cobble together a dual 1/4" female > 1/8" stereo male adapter, but it will be clunky - I used to run something like that into a D6 in the late 90s and it was a PITA).  The preamp in the R09 should be "good enough" for a short term solution as you learn where and how to set up your mics in different venues and situations.  This will have far more impact on the quality of your recordings than will a preamp.

Then, once you've figured out how to set up your mics (and have established this is really something you want to put a lot of time and money into), you'll be able to take full advantage of the extra quality the Neumanns and a preamp will bring you.  In the meantime listen to every SKM184 recording you can find and pay attention to what preamp(s) are most often being used on the recordings you like.  Then get one of those.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 03:09:16 PM by Will_S »

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 03:10:35 PM »
what he said...
although I'll add that if you go w/the NAKS, then get the 9100 church pre to put behind them.
if you go w/the neumanns, find a used V2/v3
heaven !

Offline bgalizio

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3556
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/spyboychoir
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2007, 03:11:01 PM »
With that kind of a budget, you can really open up to many good pres. You can pick from an AERCO MP-2, Sound Devices MP-2, Grace V2/V3, Apogee Mini-MP, etc. etc. Really depends on what mics you're running.

EDIT: I think you are making a wise choice in doing a "starter rig" based around the Naks to make sure you like this hobby. Play around with the Naks & Church pre and listen to a bunch of shows on the archive to see if you even want to move to different gear.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 03:13:59 PM by bgalizio »

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2007, 03:16:20 PM »
Smokin'Joe runs nak > church 9100 and pulls the heat pretty consistently.

although, my vote goes for 184>Mme
you should be able to put that together for $1600 or so.
then sell the r9 and get the new Sony D50 (digital input).
done, for under $2k (including sale of r9)

sort of a "do it right the first time" approach.
buy used.  If you dont like the hobby, sell it back to the section and you'll loose no money at all, and make someone else's day!

+T for wise shopping.


Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2007, 05:15:15 PM »
My actual budget is $3000...


If that's the case, forget the R-09 (sell it on eBay) and buy a Sound Devices 702 or 722. End of story, nothing else needed. Spend the remaining on mics.

I use a Sound Devices MixPre with my R-09 and find it to be a match made in heaven.



digifish
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 05:17:23 PM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2007, 05:16:56 PM »
dont listen !!!
these SD boxes are super , super nice.  but expensive for what they offer.
you'd be foolish to spend 2x on your deck than on your mics.

if the mixpre / MP2 sound so good...(and they do), then just pick one up on fleabay.  they are common.
the ENG crowed drools for these things and they are super easy to sell, if need be.

since you've already got the r9 and all...., that would be a wise shopper type investment.
then get those Neumanns!

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2007, 05:19:36 PM »
dont listen !!!
these SD boxes are super , super nice.  but expensive for what they offer.
you'd be foolish to spend 2x on your deck than on your mics.

if the mixpre / MP2 sound so good...(and they do), then just pick one up on fleabay.  they are common.
the ENG crowed drools for these things and they are super easy to sell, if need be.

since you've already got the r9 and all...., that would be a wise shopper type investment.
then get those Neumanns!

I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life. AND Here's the most important part. If you come to sell it you will get most of your money back, no problem, watch what happens when these things go up on eBay.

BTW: About the mic thing, once you spend more than $500 on a pair of stereo mics, you are in the realms of the last 5% of variability in performance. Today the first 90-95% of greatness happens in the first $500 from my experience.

digifish
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 05:24:09 PM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2007, 05:22:23 PM »
i'd rather have 2k mics and a 1k back end than <1k mics and a $2300 back end.

if sound is the key, you can do MUCH better for the price of a 722.
your ears may vary..., I prefer the sound of the ACM671 over the 722.  but thats me.


Like I said, the 722 is nice.  top notch A/D, features and lights.  preamps are good...but not world class good.

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2007, 05:31:24 PM »
i'd rather have 2k mics and a 1k back end than <1k mics and a $2300 back end.

if sound is the key, you can do MUCH better for the price of a 722.
your ears may vary..., I prefer the sound of the ACM671 over the 722.  but thats me.


Like I said, the 722 is nice.  top notch A/D, features and lights.  preamps are good...but not world class good.


I'd like to agree with you on the mics, but it seems that you are applying the 'audiophile' filter. I produce music for a living, I have gotten over the $2K mic thing a long time ago. The performance is worth orders of magnitude more than the sound (so long as it is free of basic problems/defects, just note that the main difference in sound here is that one is a cardioid the other an omni). 

So, here we have $320 worth of mics vs $1840 (right mouse save as will get you the samples)

Context...



digifish
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 05:36:50 PM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2007, 05:41:46 PM »
its all in how you look at it.  there is spending a lot on mics for the sake of "spending a lot", or there is seeking good price/performance ratios.  Case in point...AKG c414s.  world famous.  a LOT less money than a tlm170 (same feature set and a grand more).

IMO, the transducer is the most important part.  I dont do this for a living though...., just for fun.

i'd never knock the SD boxes...but in the context of this thread, where the fella is looking for input for a $3k budget it doesn't make much sense to dump over 2/3rds of it into one of those.  I think the diminishing returns theory applies here greatly.  for the price, you can assemble a better sounding rig than the SD boxes...but it would be multiple pieces vs. a single box solution.  Its all about what your priorities are.


oh..
and the tlm103 sucks any way.
 >:D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 05:56:49 PM by Nick's Picks »

Offline Mr.Fantasy

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus saves...
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2007, 05:51:04 PM »
Man, that mixpre thing from sound devices looks super nice...

I like the more expensive mic sound better in that comp...but is it $1500 I don't know...probably not...

But that is a card vs. an omni....

I don't think my post was fully understood earlier...

I am going to make a $3000 rig eventually, once I think I know enough of what is good, and what sounds good to me....

Right now I am making the R-09 starter rig....

Got the R-09 for $300

Have the old Nak cm300's no phantom mod....

I am going to try the Naks(w/batts) straight into the R-09 and see what that sounds like....

I have a show from the other night that I could post...but I dont know how to host that sort of file size...(files are .wav)

What editing software do you guys use?

For burning Cds and track splitting and whatnot...?
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2007, 05:56:26 PM »
for tracking, cd-wav http://www.mymusictools.com/splitter_joiner_24/cd_wave_editor_2656.htm
for archiveing / sharing : FLAC front end (www.mikewren.com/flac)

general editing, i like wavlab and sound forge 9.  both are a few hundred, i believe.

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2007, 05:59:07 PM »
its all in how you look at it.  there is spending a lot on mics for the sake of "spending a lot", or there is seeking good price/performance ratios.  Case in point...AKG c414s.  world famous.  a LOT less money than a tlm170 (same feature set and a grand more).

IMO, the transducer is the most important part.  I dont do this for a living though...., just for fun.

i'd never knock the SD boxes...but in the context of this thread, where the fella is looking for input for a $3k budget it doesn't make much sense to dump over 2/3rds of it into one of those.  I think the diminishing returns theory applies here greatly.  for the price, you can assemble a better sounding rig than the SD boxes...but it would be multiple pieces vs. a single box solution.  Its all about what your priorities are.


oh..
and the tml103 sucks any way.
 >:D

All fair points. I also agree that you can fall in love with the paticular sound of a mic.

My problem with expensive mics is that mics get beat up very quickly. They are mistreated by staff/clients and frankly cost a lot because that is what the market will bear (plus, some of the worlds biggest names still small-batch manufacture in expensive labour countries with lots of manual input).

If you only have $500 to spend on mics, no one know just by listening to the recording. Too much opinion and not enough blind listening in this industry :)

digifish.
- What's this knob do?

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2007, 06:06:13 PM »
Man, that mixpre thing from sound devices looks super nice...

Right now I am making the R-09 starter rig....

Got the R-09 for $300


It's about USD $665. It's main features that work well with the R-09 are the tape-out mini-jack, the fact it has P48 phantom, lightning fast (and transparent to my ear) compressors to protect from overload, some nice filtering (80 and 160 Hz) if you are using a mic without a switch and most importantly, it's very very quiet, even at high gain settings. The mic will be the limiting factor not the mic preamp.

digifish.
- What's this knob do?

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2007, 06:11:20 PM »
its a tad shrill to my ears.  perhaps thats too harsh, more like the top end is very pronounced...and when you want it laid back sounding, this aint it.
depends on the mics though. 

its clean.  a tad dry for my tastes (as are all SD preamps)

Offline Will_S

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2007, 06:16:47 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Quiet preamp yes, rugged unit yes, last you the rest of your life...well...I kind of doubt it.  Not that I doubt the reliability of the unit, but what happens if another format like DSD or its successor really catches on?  Seems unrealistic to think PCM will really remain the dominant format for a lifetime.

Edit:  Look at the usage and desirability of "vintage" mics today and the usage and desirability of "vintage" recorders today.  It sure seems like mics tend to hold their value and utility a lot longer.

BTW: About the mic thing, once you spend more than $500 on a pair of stereo mics, you are in the realms of the last 5% of variability in performance. Today the first 90-95% of greatness happens in the first $500 from my experience.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 06:22:04 PM by Will_S »

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2007, 07:10:24 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.

No I am not suggesting that. You are paying in the recorder for 'ruggedizing' / reliability. How many R-09s here have had jack faults for instance? An R-09 patched to a MixPre will sound 99.5% as good as a SD7XX. But the R-09 will be dead long before a SD7XX in the field.

But I do field recording with a R-09 and MixPre...the R-09 feels very vunerable out there. From what I could see the setup was to be used in a range of 'projects' and locations, not just the safety of seat 12 isle 23 :)

EDIT: BTW if he sells the R-09 he will have about $700 to spend on mics.  ;)

digifish 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 07:21:23 PM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline illconditioned

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2841
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2007, 07:22:26 PM »
dont listen !!!
these SD boxes are super , super nice.  but expensive for what they offer.
you'd be foolish to spend 2x on your deck than on your mics.

if the mixpre / MP2 sound so good...(and they do), then just pick one up on fleabay.  they are common.
the ENG crowed drools for these things and they are super easy to sell, if need be.

since you've already got the r9 and all...., that would be a wise shopper type investment.
then get those Neumanns!

I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life. AND Here's the most important part. If you come to sell it you will get most of your money back, no problem, watch what happens when these things go up on eBay.

BTW: About the mic thing, once you spend more than $500 on a pair of stereo mics, you are in the realms of the last 5% of variability in performance. Today the first 90-95% of greatness happens in the first $500 from my experience.

digifish

Buy the BeyerDynamic MC930 matched pair.  Listen to some of my recordings at: soundmann.com.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2007, 07:23:26 PM »
personally, i even feel that $3k is overkill for concert recording.
sure, i've spent 2x that ..., but I wised up.

my best sounding rig in recent years was the LSD2>ACM660.
cost me barely over a G.

Offline illconditioned

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2841
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2007, 07:23:49 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.

No I am not suggesting that. You are paying in the recorder for 'ruggedizing' / reliability. How many R-09s here have had jack faults for instance? An R-09 patched to a MixPre will sound 99.5% as good as a SD7XX. But the R-09 will be dead long before a SD7XX in the field.

But I do field recording with a R-09 and MixPre...the R-09 feels very vunerable out there. From what I could see the setup was to be used in a range of 'projects' and locations, not just the safety of seat 12 isle 23 :)

EDIT: BTW if he sells the R-09 he will have about $700 to spend on mics.  ;)

digifish 

Just make a cable "jack extender" for the Edirol.  A right angle male plug, 6" of wire, and a female jack.  Oh yeah, apply hot melt glue to hold the right angle plug in the recorder :).

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2007, 07:24:24 PM »

Buy the BeyerDynamic MC930 matched pair.  Listen to some of my recordings at: soundmann.com.

  Richard


HRYK !

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2007, 07:25:28 PM »
and comparing reliability of a $300 recorder vs. a 2300 one.
apples and ping pong balls.

Offline Will_S

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2007, 07:27:11 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.

No I am not suggesting that. You are paying in the recorder for 'ruggedizing' / reliability. How many R-09s here have had jack faults for instance? An R-09 patched to a MixPre will sound 99.5% as good as a SD7XX. But the R-09 will be dead long before a SD7XX in the field.

Hmm, no argument there, but for the price of one SD7XX he can replace his R09 ~8 times over.  I'd suspect by the time he's killed 8 R09's 2-track PCM recording, especially to hard drives, will be quite obsolete.  Sony D5 cassette decks were pretty rugged for field use but how many are in use today?

Going back to the original poster, keep in mind that he is recording amplified performances, not nature sounds.  I suspect the noise of even the R09's internal preamp will generally be swamped by ambient noise.  And he'll probably want directional mics, not omnis.  For directional mics I definitely think you still get a pretty decent return on the dollar moving past the $500/pair price point.

Offline hi and lo

  • Trade Count: (38)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2314
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2007, 07:46:13 PM »
Oh yeah, apply hot melt glue to hold the right angle plug in the recorder :).

*cringes*

Opening these up and applying epoxy to the input jacks couldn't be any easier. Disassembly and reassembly are a snap; it's quite intuitive how the parts fit together.

I say take care of this problem right out of the box. There are plenty of people willing to do this modification on the board (including myself I suppose), but I would think just about anyone could figure it out and be successful.

Offline Mr.Fantasy

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus saves...
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2007, 08:13:08 PM »
Oh yeah, apply hot melt glue to hold the right angle plug in the recorder :).

*cringes*

Opening these up and applying epoxy to the input jacks couldn't be any easier. Disassembly and reassembly are a snap; it's quite intuitive how the parts fit together.

I say take care of this problem right out of the box. There are plenty of people willing to do this modification on the board (including myself I suppose), but I would think just about anyone could figure it out and be successful.

Any pictures of this process? or the result?

Or a link to a thread?

I have not heard of this before....unless this is just the common fix to the jack problem...????

But back to topic...I will be using a R-09 and Nak cm300's....

What would all of you wise ones suggest for this setup...? I am open to price schemes...but not too high on this project...maybe 500-600 max....

Thanks for all of your help and input....+T's to all!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 08:16:44 PM by Mr.Fantasy »
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2007, 08:21:52 PM »

serious, the church 9100.
you can borrow mine and see if you like it (if it ever comes back from Brooklyn)

Offline guysonic

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1366
  • WISDOM FOR ALL TIMES
    • Sonic Studios DSM Stereo-Surround Microphone Systems
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2007, 08:32:16 PM »
I need some recommendations for a good preamp to put in front of my R-09...

I did my first recording the other night....just with the R-09 and some crappy mics of my buddies....

Any recommendations would be very greatly appreciated...

Or if someone would tell me some pre's to investigate....

I am really new to taping but I am REALLY new to the pre amp....

Your choice of mics, type of sound (natural acoustic or amplified venue) helps determine type of preamp best fitted to r-09, or if you need a preamp at all for the R-09.

For amplified recording with good moderately priced electret, even if low output mics, you might not require a preamp as discussed in thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83254.0.html

For more natural or acoustic sound recording, a preamp is usually a requirement with r-09.  My PA-3SX model might be considered well suited for this purpose with using a variety of external microphones.

R-09 tech review with photos, recordings, and noise plots with/without preamp at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline Mr.Fantasy

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus saves...
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2007, 08:34:57 PM »

serious, the church 9100.
you can borrow mine and see if you like it (if it ever comes back from Brooklyn)

Nick, that is a very nice offer, and I would take you up on it...that is if you had it in your possession :laugh:....but since these aren't that much I could just go ahead and try and work a deal with Church.

You think THIS deal is still going? Or I guess I should try and ask Church himself....

If I spring for this I want to nab some cards as well...

I am just bumming my buddies mics, and I want to have a backup in case the Naks fail on me....they are old....

**I should edit this....I own the Naks....the other night on my first run I bummed my buddies....**
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2007, 08:41:32 PM »
I expect to have it back any day.
the guy i lent it to is finished w/it.

Offline Will_S

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2007, 10:00:02 PM »
I think you can learn a lot and make some decent recordings with just the Naks and the R09.  But if you want new toys, the Church preamp + cards wouldn't be a bad investment, even if you upgrade to better mics and a phantom-capable preamp to go with them, having an inconspicuous backup rig never hurts.

Offline Mr.Fantasy

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus saves...
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2007, 10:22:38 PM »
I guess I will just use the weird 9volt batteries....

But I really think the active mod looks the best...

Any powering or power mod advice/tips?
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6703
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2007, 10:50:17 PM »
Not that I doubt the reliability of the unit, but what happens if another format like DSD or its successor really catches on?  Seems unrealistic to think PCM will really remain the dominant format for a lifetime.

That's the best part..  Sound Devices would just offer a DSD a/d board if there was demand.  They already did a field upgrade of the a/d to fix a bug.  It was an easy swap.  They are constantly doing development and adding features to the software. The ability to record to external firewire devices is another great example. That required a hardware upgrade to the firewire board. It is free.  Other companies would put those features into a new model instead of upgrading.  That would drive down the resale of the old models.  Planned obsolescence.

The 7xx is a platform with great service. The upgrades are a big reason why pros buy and keep them.

The FR2LE looks like a pretty good box but, duh, the idiots couldn't even fathom putting a hold switch on it. Where's the firmware upgrade that allows a button combo to act as a hold?  Did Korg ever release something like that for the MR1000?  Or do you have to wait and buy the MR1100?

Quote
Edit:  Look at the usage and desirability of "vintage" mics today and the usage and desirability of "vintage" recorders today.  It sure seems like mics tend to hold their value and utility a lot longer.

True.  But recorder technology has reached a bit of a plateau.  Just as those mics you mention reached a plateau that made them desirable for many many years.

99.XXXX% of people find redbook pcm or LPs to be adequate. How small is the X?  2 channel PCM will be around for a LONG time. There is nothing else on the horizon.  Look at how many people stick with 2 channel for music and don't care about surround. I don't record at 24/192 but could. How big is the 24/192 playback market?  DSD is no longer "new news". Sony/Phillips keep a death grip on SACD.

PCM and DVD/A are more than adequate for the upcoming iPod generation. And the baby boomers are losing their hearing.

The r09 sounds great and is very reliable.. As Richard says, you can always glue a pigtail in or solder it right to the board in place of the original jack. Pretty bulletproof after that.

New product - Get your NEUMANN active mounting bars
Active microphone mounting bars for Schoeps and AKG, and Naiant AKG, ready to ship

Offline Will_S

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2007, 11:53:53 PM »
No doubt the 7XX boxes are very nice.  And if I was a professional who absoultely could not afford a breakdown in the field, I'd give one serious consideration if I had the $$$$.

I was just responding to the assertion that the 7XX "will last you the rest of your life."  I plan on outliving hard drives and 2 channel PCM.   ;)

Offline Jamos

  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1630
  • Gender: Male
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2007, 11:58:16 PM »
I'd have to agree that, if for now you are sticking with the Naks & R-09, investing in a Church 9100 would be well worth it.  They are <$200 and would give you a significant improvement in signal-to-noise and overall sound.  They are also pretty easily sold back in the yard sale, should you choose to do so.


Offline gewwang

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6250
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2007, 12:38:11 AM »
The vulnerability of the R-09 versus the ruggedness of the 722 argument is way overblown. It's not like we're strapping these recorders onto our torso's and going out to a rugby match. I've taped with the preamp in my crotch and the r-09 in my front pocket at a few metal shows in the mosh pit and never had an issue during or after the shows since getting the r-09 in July 2006.

Personally I stealth the 722 because I like the peace of mind that there's no moving parts - this is crucial when you can only make it to one Neil Young show for instance and the 13th row center ticket was $185, I can only look at the recorder a handful of times so I enjoy the show more with just 2 connections to deal with - mics to actives, actives to 722.

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2007, 12:48:26 AM »
The vulnerability of the R-09 versus the ruggedness of the 722 argument is way overblown. It's not like we're strapping these recorders onto our torso's and going out to a rugby match. I've taped with the preamp in my crotch and the r-09 in my front pocket at a few metal shows in the mosh pit and never had an issue during or after the shows since getting the r-09 in July 2006.

Personally I stealth the 722 because I like the peace of mind that there's no moving parts - this is crucial when you can only make it to one Neil Young show for instance and the 13th row center ticket was $185, I can only look at the recorder a handful of times so I enjoy the show more with just 2 connections to deal with - mics to actives, actives to 722.

If the 722 was mass-manufactured and sold as an iPod we'd be paying $999 for them...how to encourage GenY the 722 makes a great mp3 player? :)

digifish
- What's this knob do?

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2007, 08:32:20 AM »
your 722's hard drive doesn't move ?
huh.


Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6505
  • large Marge sent me
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2007, 08:49:46 AM »
your 722's hard drive doesn't move ?
huh.

The 722 will write to a flash card.
The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10244
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2007, 09:02:49 AM »
I know.
but he didn't say he used CF.
and if you were planning to, why spend the extra for a HDD you wont use?

we digress....

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6505
  • large Marge sent me
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2007, 09:10:42 AM »
But, like I was saying, I couldn't pull the trigger because I really didn't (and still don't) know enough about this hobby to invest that much money...as in I don't think I would spend it properly...or I would regret it when I wasn't satisfied....

So I decided that I am going to make a little...Learners Rig....which is two prong...

1)something to get me to where I am making good recordings in the field.....
2)Processing these recordings on my computer...to track split and burn, as well as be able to tweak a little if there is something I am not happy with...

I think you should invest the $3K and use the CM300>R09 until you know you like taping.  You don't need an outboard preamp to get started - not even a $200 one.  The noise of the R09 preamp will be masked by the noise of the CM300s.   You don't need to modify the Naks for phantom.  That rig is simple and can be run low profile.  Download free tools mentioned above for processing.

You can buy in at the top if you really want to but you already have everything you need to be making good recordings.  You don't have to spend a dime to meet your two stated goals.


Quote
I have my dads old set of Nak Cm300s....he saw something like 168 shows with Jerry, and that is pretty good for a guy living in Oklahoma....and he has got all his old masters which I am slowly transferring to Cds....

I've probably had copies of your dads tapes.  When I was living in OKC and Norman in the 80s, a couple of my friends knew a local guy running CM300s for Dead shows.  Some nice copies got circulated.
The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6505
  • large Marge sent me
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2007, 09:13:26 AM »

Of course we digress.  Thats what we do here :D
The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

Offline gewwang

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6250
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2007, 09:20:18 AM »
I know.
but he didn't say he used CF.
and if you were planning to, why spend the extra for a HDD you wont use?

we digress....


You're right the HD is a moving part, but as long as it hasn't failed me in over 70 shows, it's hard to remember it is a moving part.

As far as how much I spent on the 722, it's worth every penny for the peace of mind I mentioned earlier like when I have a $185 ticket and only one chance to tape the show. Additionally there are many times when I have 3 shows in a workweek working 10 hour days and 2 hours commuting to/from the show, so I like being able to format the HD on Sunday and not have to move any files over until Saturday. I cannot do that when I'm working with a 4gb flash card.

Offline Mr.Fantasy

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus saves...
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2007, 09:22:36 AM »
Well alright!

Sounds like a plan...

Hmmm...

Australian Pink Floyd is coming to town this Friday????

Anyone know their taping policy?

Or isn't there a thread on here just for that????

I am going to look into the editing software mentioned on here....

Again....+T's to all...!!!
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
    • digifish music
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2007, 05:35:26 PM »
Well alright!

Sounds like a plan...

Hmmm...

Australian Pink Floyd is coming to town this Friday????

Anyone know their taping policy?

Or isn't there a thread on here just for that????

I am going to look into the editing software mentioned on here....

Again....+T's to all...!!!

BTW excellent and free and cheap in that order are...

Audacity

GoldWave

digifish
- What's this knob do?

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 13653
  • Gender: Male
Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2007, 05:34:47 PM »
I know.
but he didn't say he used CF.
and if you were planning to, why spend the extra for a HDD you wont use?

we digress....


You're right the HD is a moving part, but as long as it hasn't failed me in over 70 shows, it's hard to remember it is a moving part.

As far as how much I spent on the 722, it's worth every penny for the peace of mind I mentioned earlier like when I have a $185 ticket and only one chance to tape the show. Additionally there are many times when I have 3 shows in a workweek working 10 hour days and 2 hours commuting to/from the show, so I like being able to format the HD on Sunday and not have to move any files over until Saturday. I cannot do that when I'm working with a 4gb flash card.
^^^^^
Cards are cheap, you cold easily do that by grabbing a few more.  You could pick up 16gb of flash for under $100 (say two 8gb cards) today (fall of '07) and not have to dump files.

My take on the $ vs bullet-proof argument-  Yes, piece of mind is important. Yes, the R-09 seems and is vulnerable out of the box.  With my first one, now 1-1/2 yrs old, I epoxied my jacks after a warrranty repair (covered after the 1yr. expiration  ;D) and keep it in a modified cell phone case unless changing cards, batts, or dumping files.  It doesn't seem or feel nearly as vulnerable to me that way and has survived drops to concrete floors, Hank III FOB crazies, and a 4 yr old nefew, though most of what I record is relatively tame.  With the exception of the line-in breaking, I've never had a problem with it (user error issues are an exception ;)).  I do run an external preamp because of my mics.  When the line-in jack broke I switched to using the mic-in jack for 6 months before sending it in for repair.  I've lost zero shows shows over the last 1-1/2 years due to the R-09's reliability, lost one due to a bad cable I discovered after the fact, and lost two due to running out of battery power without spares.  :P 

I just bought a second R-09 and picked up two additional 8gb cards a couple weeks ago all for under $400 delivered.  I now have duplicate recorder redundancy plus the ability to patch (analog) into other rigs or the SDB with my backup recorder.  At a 'fest a week ago I was admiring those pretty 7xx lights but was quite happy with my twin recorders, four 8gb cards and a bunch of AA's (+ a couple 9v's for my pre).  Those SD recorders are great, I'd love one, but I often get results I like better from my rig, which I credit to mic choice, configuration and placement, not the recorder.  I like the fact that I can swap cards for unlimited capacity and use two regular AA'a every 6-8 hrs. I just can't justify that much more $ for the recorder to essentially add digital and clock in over what I have, especially now that I have a spare. Realizing I had nearly 30 GB of recordings after getting home after that weekend was a bit of an eye opener. 

My $.02? Upgrade your recorder last!  That little R-09 will make fine recordings from your Naks or big $ mics if you decide to go that route, with the addition of an external pre if necessary.  Yes, convinence is important too and the all in one nature of the SD's recorders + 48v phantom pre is great, but honestly my pre + recorder package is about the same total size and just needs a 1/8 patch cable between them (same with the Chris Church's pre > R-09 if you go that route).  Learn how to use the Naks>R-09 to your best advantage in various situations, compare those recordings to your dad's, maybe add the Church pre.  Go from there, but experiment with mic setup first and foremost.  Most here will agree, that's were the true gains are to be found, where there is the most to learn and where the endevor starts to verge on 'art'.  Then, if you want to go deeper and upgrade your mics, let the mic choice determine your need for a preamp (or another recorder with a suitable one built-in).
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.262 seconds with 93 queries.
© 2002-2020 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF