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Author Topic: Preamp for the R-09  (Read 7198 times)

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2007, 05:31:24 PM »
i'd rather have 2k mics and a 1k back end than <1k mics and a $2300 back end.

if sound is the key, you can do MUCH better for the price of a 722.
your ears may vary..., I prefer the sound of the ACM671 over the 722.  but thats me.


Like I said, the 722 is nice.  top notch A/D, features and lights.  preamps are good...but not world class good.


I'd like to agree with you on the mics, but it seems that you are applying the 'audiophile' filter. I produce music for a living, I have gotten over the $2K mic thing a long time ago. The performance is worth orders of magnitude more than the sound (so long as it is free of basic problems/defects, just note that the main difference in sound here is that one is a cardioid the other an omni). 

So, here we have $320 worth of mics vs $1840 (right mouse save as will get you the samples)

Context...



digifish
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 05:36:50 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2007, 05:41:46 PM »
its all in how you look at it.  there is spending a lot on mics for the sake of "spending a lot", or there is seeking good price/performance ratios.  Case in point...AKG c414s.  world famous.  a LOT less money than a tlm170 (same feature set and a grand more).

IMO, the transducer is the most important part.  I dont do this for a living though...., just for fun.

i'd never knock the SD boxes...but in the context of this thread, where the fella is looking for input for a $3k budget it doesn't make much sense to dump over 2/3rds of it into one of those.  I think the diminishing returns theory applies here greatly.  for the price, you can assemble a better sounding rig than the SD boxes...but it would be multiple pieces vs. a single box solution.  Its all about what your priorities are.


oh..
and the tlm103 sucks any way.
 >:D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 05:56:49 PM by Nick's Picks »

Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2007, 05:51:04 PM »
Man, that mixpre thing from sound devices looks super nice...

I like the more expensive mic sound better in that comp...but is it $1500 I don't know...probably not...

But that is a card vs. an omni....

I don't think my post was fully understood earlier...

I am going to make a $3000 rig eventually, once I think I know enough of what is good, and what sounds good to me....

Right now I am making the R-09 starter rig....

Got the R-09 for $300

Have the old Nak cm300's no phantom mod....

I am going to try the Naks(w/batts) straight into the R-09 and see what that sounds like....

I have a show from the other night that I could post...but I dont know how to host that sort of file size...(files are .wav)

What editing software do you guys use?

For burning Cds and track splitting and whatnot...?
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2007, 05:56:26 PM »
for tracking, cd-wav http://www.mymusictools.com/splitter_joiner_24/cd_wave_editor_2656.htm
for archiveing / sharing : FLAC front end (www.mikewren.com/flac)

general editing, i like wavlab and sound forge 9.  both are a few hundred, i believe.

Offline digifish_music

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2007, 05:59:07 PM »
its all in how you look at it.  there is spending a lot on mics for the sake of "spending a lot", or there is seeking good price/performance ratios.  Case in point...AKG c414s.  world famous.  a LOT less money than a tlm170 (same feature set and a grand more).

IMO, the transducer is the most important part.  I dont do this for a living though...., just for fun.

i'd never knock the SD boxes...but in the context of this thread, where the fella is looking for input for a $3k budget it doesn't make much sense to dump over 2/3rds of it into one of those.  I think the diminishing returns theory applies here greatly.  for the price, you can assemble a better sounding rig than the SD boxes...but it would be multiple pieces vs. a single box solution.  Its all about what your priorities are.


oh..
and the tml103 sucks any way.
 >:D

All fair points. I also agree that you can fall in love with the paticular sound of a mic.

My problem with expensive mics is that mics get beat up very quickly. They are mistreated by staff/clients and frankly cost a lot because that is what the market will bear (plus, some of the worlds biggest names still small-batch manufacture in expensive labour countries with lots of manual input).

If you only have $500 to spend on mics, no one know just by listening to the recording. Too much opinion and not enough blind listening in this industry :)

digifish.
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2007, 06:06:13 PM »
Man, that mixpre thing from sound devices looks super nice...

Right now I am making the R-09 starter rig....

Got the R-09 for $300


It's about USD $665. It's main features that work well with the R-09 are the tape-out mini-jack, the fact it has P48 phantom, lightning fast (and transparent to my ear) compressors to protect from overload, some nice filtering (80 and 160 Hz) if you are using a mic without a switch and most importantly, it's very very quiet, even at high gain settings. The mic will be the limiting factor not the mic preamp.

digifish.
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2007, 06:11:20 PM »
its a tad shrill to my ears.  perhaps thats too harsh, more like the top end is very pronounced...and when you want it laid back sounding, this aint it.
depends on the mics though. 

its clean.  a tad dry for my tastes (as are all SD preamps)

Offline Will_S

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2007, 06:16:47 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Quiet preamp yes, rugged unit yes, last you the rest of your life...well...I kind of doubt it.  Not that I doubt the reliability of the unit, but what happens if another format like DSD or its successor really catches on?  Seems unrealistic to think PCM will really remain the dominant format for a lifetime.

Edit:  Look at the usage and desirability of "vintage" mics today and the usage and desirability of "vintage" recorders today.  It sure seems like mics tend to hold their value and utility a lot longer.

BTW: About the mic thing, once you spend more than $500 on a pair of stereo mics, you are in the realms of the last 5% of variability in performance. Today the first 90-95% of greatness happens in the first $500 from my experience.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 06:22:04 PM by Will_S »

Offline digifish_music

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2007, 07:10:24 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.

No I am not suggesting that. You are paying in the recorder for 'ruggedizing' / reliability. How many R-09s here have had jack faults for instance? An R-09 patched to a MixPre will sound 99.5% as good as a SD7XX. But the R-09 will be dead long before a SD7XX in the field.

But I do field recording with a R-09 and MixPre...the R-09 feels very vunerable out there. From what I could see the setup was to be used in a range of 'projects' and locations, not just the safety of seat 12 isle 23 :)

EDIT: BTW if he sells the R-09 he will have about $700 to spend on mics.  ;)

digifish 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 07:21:23 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2007, 07:22:26 PM »
dont listen !!!
these SD boxes are super , super nice.  but expensive for what they offer.
you'd be foolish to spend 2x on your deck than on your mics.

if the mixpre / MP2 sound so good...(and they do), then just pick one up on fleabay.  they are common.
the ENG crowed drools for these things and they are super easy to sell, if need be.

since you've already got the r9 and all...., that would be a wise shopper type investment.
then get those Neumanns!

I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life. AND Here's the most important part. If you come to sell it you will get most of your money back, no problem, watch what happens when these things go up on eBay.

BTW: About the mic thing, once you spend more than $500 on a pair of stereo mics, you are in the realms of the last 5% of variability in performance. Today the first 90-95% of greatness happens in the first $500 from my experience.

digifish

Buy the BeyerDynamic MC930 matched pair.  Listen to some of my recordings at: soundmann.com.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2007, 07:23:26 PM »
personally, i even feel that $3k is overkill for concert recording.
sure, i've spent 2x that ..., but I wised up.

my best sounding rig in recent years was the LSD2>ACM660.
cost me barely over a G.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2007, 07:23:49 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.

No I am not suggesting that. You are paying in the recorder for 'ruggedizing' / reliability. How many R-09s here have had jack faults for instance? An R-09 patched to a MixPre will sound 99.5% as good as a SD7XX. But the R-09 will be dead long before a SD7XX in the field.

But I do field recording with a R-09 and MixPre...the R-09 feels very vunerable out there. From what I could see the setup was to be used in a range of 'projects' and locations, not just the safety of seat 12 isle 23 :)

EDIT: BTW if he sells the R-09 he will have about $700 to spend on mics.  ;)

digifish 

Just make a cable "jack extender" for the Edirol.  A right angle male plug, 6" of wire, and a female jack.  Oh yeah, apply hot melt glue to hold the right angle plug in the recorder :).

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2007, 07:24:24 PM »

Buy the BeyerDynamic MC930 matched pair.  Listen to some of my recordings at: soundmann.com.

  Richard


HRYK !

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2007, 07:25:28 PM »
and comparing reliability of a $300 recorder vs. a 2300 one.
apples and ping pong balls.

Offline Will_S

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Re: Preamp for the R-09
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2007, 07:27:11 PM »
I hardly think so, you get a great mic preamp, one of the quietest around, solid rugged unit and it will last you the rest of your life.

Are you seriously suggesting that one reaches a point of diminishing returns faster with microphones than with recording devices?  Wow.

Edit:  I don't deny that $500 worth of mics can sound very nice.  But to suggest paying almost 5x that on a recorder while sticking with $500 mics, again, wow.

No I am not suggesting that. You are paying in the recorder for 'ruggedizing' / reliability. How many R-09s here have had jack faults for instance? An R-09 patched to a MixPre will sound 99.5% as good as a SD7XX. But the R-09 will be dead long before a SD7XX in the field.

Hmm, no argument there, but for the price of one SD7XX he can replace his R09 ~8 times over.  I'd suspect by the time he's killed 8 R09's 2-track PCM recording, especially to hard drives, will be quite obsolete.  Sony D5 cassette decks were pretty rugged for field use but how many are in use today?

Going back to the original poster, keep in mind that he is recording amplified performances, not nature sounds.  I suspect the noise of even the R09's internal preamp will generally be swamped by ambient noise.  And he'll probably want directional mics, not omnis.  For directional mics I definitely think you still get a pretty decent return on the dollar moving past the $500/pair price point.

 

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