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Author Topic: Oddball microphone techniques - part 1  (Read 75913 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #315 on: October 30, 2017, 07:22:52 PM »

How deep is the room behind the recording position?  Is there anything behind the board or is it up against the back wall?
The room is half for seating and the back is for standing. I place stand near the board which is located about 2/3 of the room. People usually stand behind board. But if there is a smaller visit, this place is empty and the board is against back wall. I do not estimate distance, but it could be about 15'-20'. I am going there to see Medeski. He is coming to Prague with Kirk Joseph, Will Bernard and Julian Addison. It's great to see them live and moreover in my most favorite club in town.

In that case I suggest you also try the variant with one forward facing and one the backward facing mic in the center, which would substitute for the center X/Y pair.  One of my considerations upon initial listens to the recordings made over this past weekend was that I wish I'd used a rear facing mic to see how useful it would be there.  I'd figured that was less useful in a smaller room (and the room I was in is probably less open to the rear than yours, yet there are people behind the board, see the pictures in the next couple posts) so I used the bidirectional to make the front center mic a Mid/Side pair instead.  I actually could have done both on Friday, running 5 channels instead of 4, but I was pressed for time and didn't bring the extra microphone.

I'm speculating, but for the folks who cannot accommodate a wide omni split, a backwards facing mic might end up being more useful than the X/Y or Mid/Side forward facing center pair.  A narrower omni split means less space to fill in the center so less center-width-blend-control is needed, and will be slightly less open and wide sounding, so the additional depth from the rear facing mic may be advantageous.  Theoretically based on pattern alone, I'd use a supercard facing forward and cardioid facing rearwards, but it really depends on how the specific mics sound and behave.  Again, the only way to know is to try it an see if you like it or not.

[edit- I will say this, given the choice I prefer the addition of the sideways facing supercardioids over making the center a Mid/Side pair with the bi-direcitonal.  But that's 5 channels total, or 6 if using the rear-facing microphone.]

« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 10:42:24 AM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #316 on: October 30, 2017, 07:25:38 PM »
Alright, partly exploring using the outdoor oddball techniques indoors, I busted out two different open oddball rigs indoors last weekend.  Both in the same medium-sized room- Revolution Live in Ft Lauderdale, FL with decent but not super-great sound, generally too much subs; same recording location- back of pit, just in front of the board, DFC, AUD only (room sweet spot is about 15' forward at the center of the pit floor); same music genre- Southern rock-ish; two different but setups.  The first a 4ch indoor oddball setup I've run there in the past, the second my now-standard outdoor 6 channel oddball setup which includes the wide omnis.

1) Friday night- The Magpie Salute. 

After the recent discussion of indoor use, I was going to take the already-wired-and-ready-to-roll outdoor 6-channel oddball rig, but chickened out.  Partly because an old friend who used to tape was going and I know he'd be excited by the Microtech Gefells, so I decided to use those along with a cool clamping arrangement which has worked well for me  in this  room previously.  And partly because its been a while since I was there and wanted to run something I could be sure would fit in the space without the 5 or 6' spaced omni spread.

Oddball 4-microphone 3-point stereo array variant (spaced supercards + center M/S pair) consisting of:
Pair of Microtech Gefell 310 supercardioids spaced about 2' apart, angled about +/- 45 degrees (pointed outside of stacks + center Mid/Side center pair- Microtech Gefell M94/MV692 cardioid Mid / Naiant X-8S bidirectional Side, about 15" forward of the supercardioid pair.

Visually, one of the more interesting things about this setup is the "3-pointed star mic bar" and its angled clamping arrangement.

Mics are arranged in a 3-point triangle formation, dictated by the unique mounting arrangement I was using, which consists of an inverted tripod foot base as 3-arm mic bar with  mics attached where the 'feet' would be (I've covered this earlier in this thread I believe, definitely in the on-stage recording thread where it is used right-side-up on the stage). Its a common 3-leg steel folding light-stand base, which comes provided with a tapped 3/8" hole near one foot. I bought it bundled with the telescopic extension arm it's in use with here and drilled/tapped identical holes in the other two legs so I can attach mic-mounts to each 'foot'. Here is is basically just fliped upside down and clamped to the staircase handrail with a super-clamp.  The soundboard is at the top of the staircase, which is roped off to block access from the pit floor.  The angle of the staircase handrail cantilevers the mics up and out into the room over the staircase somewhat.  Mics are approximately 8' above the pit floor.  Looks large and imposing in these flash photos, but its actually not very visible in the venue- out of sight-lines for these in front below, as well as those in back watching from above.

Initial headphone listening assessment via Senn HD650 direct out of DR-680's monitor mix - Good. Mid/Side width setting on DR-680 for center pair at about 20 (with a range of 0=100% mid to 100=100% side, and the Side channel recording level set for about the same modulation as Mid channel and L/R supercards).  Needs EQ to reinforce the bottom in addition to general sweetening, and probably benefit from some multiband compression.  Sort of wish I had the omnis going too with this, but from experience I know I can EQ the Gefells to get much of the bottom octave impact.

Spyder9 also recorded and his mics are also visible in some of these photos atop the high pole past the other side of the staircase, flying over the board rather than under it (his preferred standard location there, which is better protected and isolated from audience chatter).  Spyder ran a Nakamici 1000 cardioid pair, near-spaced PAS (approx. 6" / 25 degrees), mics high above the floor.

Check out the rakish clamp angle, rather cool in a 'Klingon Bird of Prey' kind of way-
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 07:32:31 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #317 on: October 30, 2017, 07:28:30 PM »
Can only get one photo per post to attach for some reason..
View from the bottom of the staircase looking up and back at the mics-


« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 07:38:18 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #318 on: October 30, 2017, 07:30:24 PM »
Top of stair looking forward at stage (flash on)
Sight-line of folks beside/behind the board is above the mics-

« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 07:38:27 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #319 on: October 30, 2017, 07:35:56 PM »
Detail showing the Naiant X-8S bidirectional gaffer-taped to the Microtech Gefell M94/MV692 cardioid to form the Mid/Side front facing pair.

In the photos above the X-8S is immediately beneath the M94 in the center, both sharing the same windscreen.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 07:37:58 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #320 on: October 30, 2017, 07:53:01 PM »
2) Sunday night-The Marcus King Band.  (Go see the Marcus King Band if you've not heard of him yet, a phenomenal talent!)

Figured I'd bring out my current standard outdoor 6-channel oddball setup this time, but switched the rear-facing supercard to a bi-directional coincident with the center supercard to make it a Mid/Side pair as mentioned previously.  Partly to minimize comparison variables by doing basically the same as Friday night but with different mics and minor geometry changes.

This was a 5-point stereo, 6-microphone setup, consisting of:
Wide-spaced omnis in APE spheres, angled +/- 45 degrees, spaced somewhere between 5' and 6'  DPA 4098 supercardioids about 2' apart maybe a bit more, angled about +/- 45 degrees (just outside of stacks + Mid/Side center pair of DPA 4098 supercaridoid & Naiant X-8S bidirectional about 8" forward of the supercardioid pair.

Setup geometry is actually generally similar to Friday except for the addition of the wide omnis, the DPA 4098 supercardioids instead of the Gefell supercards and cardioid, and the whole thing shifted back about 3' towards the back of the staircase (but approximately the same height as Friday night).

Initial headphone listening assessment via Senn HD650 direct out of DR-680's monitor mix - Better than the Gefells I think.  Mid/Side width setting on DR-680 for center pair at only about 12 (with a range of 0=100% mid to 100=100% side, and the Side channel recording level set for about the same modulation as Mid channel and L/R supercards).  Needs EQ to shape the bottom but the omnis are big and convey the impact and power I was missing before.  Not afraid to use them again like this there.  Previously I'd run a single 4060 along with the supercards in this position to help the bottom end, but didn't find it very useful, but the wide omnis are a different story.  They add a nice ambient air as well as a nice solid bottom.


Spyder9 also recorded- This time with a DPA 4011 carioid pair, near-spaced PAS (aprox. 6" / 25 degrees), mics in his same preferred location as Friday, visible on the high clamped pole in front of soundman in the background behind my mics.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:16:16 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #321 on: October 30, 2017, 07:57:05 PM »
Since this rig is all prewired to a compact Manfroto stand, I kept the stand legs folded in tight and used a giant twisty-tie to tie the stand it to handrail.  Kept it vertical with no rakish forward angle this time.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #322 on: October 30, 2017, 08:00:18 PM »
Photo taken at extended arms length above head looking across the array. The right omni in APE sphere is in the foreground, the right DPA 4098 is in the mid-ground angling right at ~45 degrees and upwards towards the hanging PA, with the center pair angled upwards behind that.  The center pair is the same Naiant X-8S under another DPA 4098.  Both mics in their own windscreens here.  You can see how the whole linear array sort of tucks in below the board and drink rail behind preserving full visibility for the folks behind.  I tried to take a few photos from the audience in the pit looking back at the board but you can't see my setup in those photos at all, it completely dissapears.

BTW, the windscreen pointing at the ground just behind my stand visible in this and the first photo of this setup is the rear-facing 4098 supercardioid on its telescopic arm, folded down and out of the way while not in use (benched by the last-minute substitution of the X-8S). 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:19:11 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline lsd2525

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #323 on: November 01, 2017, 10:56:53 AM »
Interesting set up! That looks like a great venue to tape in
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Line CM3; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-70D

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #324 on: November 01, 2017, 11:44:50 AM »

How deep is the room behind the recording position?  Is there anything behind the board or is it up against the back wall?
The room is half for seating and the back is for standing. I place stand near the board which is located about 2/3 of the room. People usually stand behind board. But if there is a smaller visit, this place is empty and the board is against back wall. I do not estimate distance, but it could be about 15'-20'. I am going there to see Medeski. He is coming to Prague with Kirk Joseph, Will Bernard and Julian Addison. It's great to see them live and moreover in my most favorite club in town.

In that case I suggest you also try the variant with one forward facing and one the backward facing mic in the center, which would substitute for the center X/Y pair.  One of my considerations upon initial listens to the recordings made over this past weekend was that I wish I'd used a rear facing mic to see how useful it would be there.  I'd figured that was less useful in a smaller room (and the room I was in is probably less open to the rear than yours, yet there are people behind the board, see the pictures in the next couple posts) so I used the bidirectional to make the front center mic a Mid/Side pair instead. 

I'm speculating, but for the folks who cannot accommodate a wide omni split, a backwards facing mic might end up being more useful than the X/Y or Mid/Side forward facing center pair. 
kuba e: I would second this. The #1 configuration for us has been the fwd and rear facing cardiod ( I label them as 0' (fwd) & 180' (rear). As kindms puts it, even though it is subtle, muting the rear channel during a 4 track mixdown always removes some of the depth. If you're mixing the rear channel in, just hit mute on the rear; once you can tell a difference when muting the rear but barely then you are mixing it properly.

Specifically, for that room pictured the fwd/rear cards should offer you good mixdown potential. (caveat here is without a middle X-Y "safety" pair you are "stuck" with the two omnis and fwd/rear- less mixdown options BUT more dimensionality and psycho-acoustic stage width)
edit to add pics of both a 4 channel with fwd/rear (AKG ck22 Omnis spread 100 cm|460b preamps; ck61 cardiod fwd 0'|ck61 cardiod rear 180'|naiant PFA's) and a 3 channel with rear only (AKGck22 spread omni + akgck61 cardiod fwd 0' - also digigal's neumanns? with pink dead rats)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 05:58:34 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #325 on: November 01, 2017, 05:38:43 PM »
kuba e: I would second this. The #1 configuration for us has been the fwd and rear facing cardiod ( I label them as 0' (fwd) & 180' (rear). As kindms puts it, even though it is subtle, muting the rear channel during a 4 track mixdown always removes some of the depth. If you're mixing the rear channel in, just hit mute on the rear; once you can tell a difference when muting the rear but barely then you are mixing it properly.

Specifically, for that room pictured the fwd/rear cards should offer you good mixdown potential. (caveat here is without a middle X-Y "safety" pair you are "stuck" with the two omnis and fwd/rear- less mixdown options BUT more dimensionality and psycho-acoustic stage width)

Spot on, all of this.

I partly suggest X/Y or M/S in the middle because it seems less crazy and tends to be easier to convince other tapers to try that than a rear-facing mic. It is more useful than just a single forward-facing center mic, and one of the obvious options for populating the 4th recording channel, but I prefer the rear-facer most of the time, especially using the Mid/Side mixdown technique.

The rear-facer is the first option I'd  try myself there. You're getting pretty good sound with just the omni pair, and the center mic will do the most to improve that. The rear-facer is gravy.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #326 on: November 02, 2017, 03:11:56 PM »
I'm speculating, but for the folks who cannot accommodate a wide omni split, a backwards facing mic might end up being more useful than the X/Y or Mid/Side forward facing center pair.  A narrower omni split means less space to fill in the center so less center-width-blend-control is needed, and will be slightly less open and wide sounding, so the additional depth from the rear facing mic may be advantageous.  Theoretically based on pattern alone, I'd use a supercard facing forward and cardioid facing rearwards, but it really depends on how the specific mics sound and behave.  Again, the only way to know is to try it an see if you like it or not.
Yes, that's exactly what I'd like to try. In the previous post, you mentioned that by mixing the rear microphone, we can create a similar effect like playback with halfler rear speaker. I tried Halfler's rear speaker and I was very surprised how it changed the sound compared to the classic stereo playback. I felt like I was in the middle of the audience, the stereo has spread a lot. If I could get this feeling at least a bit into the recording by mid/side mixdown of rear mic, it would be great.

Quote
[edit- I will say this, given the choice I prefer the addition of the sideways facing supercardioids over making the center a Mid/Side pair with the bi-direcitonal.  But that's 5 channels total, or 6 if using the rear-facing microphone.]
Please, how do you mean this configuration? Two spaced omnis + two coincident  sideways facing supercardiods in the middle + one forward mic?

Quote
Visually, one of the more interesting things about this setup is the "3-pointed star mic bar" and its angled clamping arrangement.
Great idea to use stand legs as mics bar. Thanks you and Kyle for photos too. It is very helpful to get an idea of the configuration.

kuba e: I would second this. The #1 configuration for us has been the fwd and rear facing cardiod ( I label them as 0' (fwd) & 180' (rear). As kindms puts it, even though it is subtle, muting the rear channel during a 4 track mixdown always removes some of the depth. If you're mixing the rear channel in, just hit mute on the rear; once you can tell a difference when muting the rear but barely then you are mixing it properly.
I'm looking forward to trying it out. I have five mics and dr680. I can try 1 meter spaced omnis, coincident hypers in middle and one rear card. I hope it will not be difficult to mix. I guess I can always make it easier when i mix coincident hypers to mono. Maybe I'll have chance to try it next week. I'll let you know how it turns out and i will make photos too.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 03:13:27 PM by kuba e »

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #327 on: November 03, 2017, 02:26:37 PM »
Medeski and those guys should have no problems with recording AUD as long as the room allows it you should be AOK!
I'm just a bit jealous as I haven't seen Medeski in a couple of years and always enjoy his side projects (sometimes more than MMW)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #328 on: November 05, 2017, 12:55:00 PM »
Please, how do you mean this configuration? Two spaced omnis + two coincident  sideways facing supercardiods in the middle + one forward mic?

All covered earlier in this thread. I'm at a tradeshow and can't post a link at the moment. Left/Right facing supercards are spaced about 20" apart or so. In a more challenging acoustic room I might angle them +/- 45 degrees as in the photos recently posted above, but ideally they are pointig +/- 90 degrees, directly to the sides. Front/back are spaced too but can probably be coincident.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #329 on: November 05, 2017, 02:03:46 PM »
On mixing it-  It can sometimes be advantageous to reduce the low frequency content of the forward facing center mic via EQ curve or even a high-pass filter. That let's the omnis take care of most of the bottom, with all the mics contributing as frequecy rises. The typical resonse of many supercards (usually designed for speech pickup) sort of does some of that automatically, but it's something to play with when mixing for best effect.

Generally I EQ each channel or channel pair to sound as good as possible on their own before  mixing them together. That bottom-end attenuation of the center mic is something of a further modification to that. Further, a loudness curve scooping some miss and emphasising the bottom and top can work well with the backward facing mic.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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