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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2015, 10:10:48 AM »
BTW, counter to my expectations, I haven't found the DPA 4098H to be overly light in the bass region when listened to on their own without inclusion of the omnis.  They don't have that super-solid, fat bottom the wide omnis provide, but I'd actually not hesitate to run them alone as a pair for amplified stuff, especially if the music or the PA was bass heavy.  In combination with the omnis they work extremely well.

Good to hear. One idea I've had is to create a pop-up rig inspired by yours for two channel/point-at-stack type stuff where I'd typically run hypers or supers.

I found these windscreens (http://www.frontendaudio.com/Audix-WS1281-Windscreen-p/9999-09549.htm) made for the Audix micros worked great with the Naiant X-R caps. Two stages like the Shures but fit smaller diameter mics. The 4098h are 10mm diamter and the audix are 12mm diameter by spec so they might still be a bit loose. More bulky than the stock ones with fur but might perform better in heavier wind.
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2015, 11:53:08 AM »
Thanks.  Those Audix windscreens may be just the ticket.  I like the dual foam construction.  May order one or two to check them out.

Yes, by the posted specs indicate the 4098H is 10mm in diameter, but they seem smaller than that to me.  I'll have to measure but my initial guess is that they are actually closer to 5 or 6mm OD.  If the Audix screens are too loose, they might be able to be used over the very thin DPA foam screens, which I'd guess are about 12mm OD.  Will need to make sure the Audix screens are long enough to completely cover the miniature interference tube and back ports on the mic-body though, that's the unusual dimension for tiny mics of this diameter.  Worth a try.  If these provide sufficient wind protection, I'd prefer this to using a fur cover.

When I was rigging all this up at the campsite last week, I was working at a table with a big floor fan next to it which belongs to a fellow taper here.  I had headphones on checking signal and connections and used the fan while playing around with various windscreen combinations to see what would be approriate.  The hair curler foams alone weren't enough, which I already knew.  Adding the ball-mic screens over those helped, but using the big Shures over them was what was really needed.  The DIY fur I had on hand was too large, but holding it snug around the hair curler foam seemed equally effective as using the big Shure.

So if it turns out fur is needed I'll either DIY my own or look into Rycote miniwindjammers, assuming they make one which either fits this mic directly or fits over the hair curler foams.  I like the non-matting fur Rycote uses.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #167 on: May 05, 2015, 01:48:14 PM »
I found these windscreens (http://www.frontendaudio.com/Audix-WS1281-Windscreen-p/9999-09549.htm) made for the Audix micros worked great with the Naiant X-R caps. Two stages like the Shures but fit smaller diameter mics. The 4098h are 10mm diamter and the audix are 12mm diameter by spec so they might still be a bit loose. More bulky than the stock ones with fur but might perform better in heavier wind.

Received a pair of these Audix WS1281 windscreens from Front End Audio.  They are double layer foam screens, but unlike the big Shures they don't actually use two different types of foam.  The Shures use a coarse open mesh foam on the inside, which mostly serves to center the mic inside the larger outer foam.  These are actually what appear to be a typical large lavaliere-sized windscreen nested inside a larger, typical SDC-sized windscreen, both made of the same foam. 

The insertion depth (mic coverage) is about 1" which is insufficient to cover the 4098H, which needs a bore-depth of 1-3/4" or more.  However, the nested screens pulled apart easily, held together only by a couple small dots of glue.  The bore of the larger screen measures a bit over 2", deep by a bit less than 1" in diameter.  Fortunately the hair-curler foams I was using previously on the 4098H fit inside the larger foams perfectly.  Looks like this combination will work out well, pending a real-world wind test.  May also need fur to achieve equivalent wind-noise reduction to that provided by the big Shures, which is the goal.

These now fit snugly and are light enough that the flexible goose-neck of the microphone can support them without droop.

Photo's below.  The lighter colored cylindrical windscreen is the hair curler foam-
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #168 on: May 05, 2015, 01:50:21 PM »
Here it is modified, with the alternate insert-
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #169 on: May 05, 2015, 09:34:08 PM »
After reading "hair curler foam,"  I was extremely disappointed not to see pink foam in the pictures. 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #170 on: March 24, 2016, 12:11:14 PM »
Latest variation is using all miniature DPA mics in the 6 channel array (2 x 4061 omni, 4 x 4098 hypercardioid), rewiring to convert all former TRS minijack/plug connections to locking mini-XLR, and Naiant PFA powering for all 6 mics.  These are incremental evolutionary changes, making things more reliable, more weather resistant, and smaller, without a significant sacrifice in audio quality.

However, the latest new test which is obvious in the photos below, is the addition of two Naiant X-8s figure-8 mics, each placed coincident with the front and rear-facing 4098 hypers to form center front/rear-facing Mid/Side pairs.  I want to determine if the ability to adjust center image width (without introducing additional phase difference information) will be advantageous and if moving to regular use of a M/S pair in the center will be worthwhile.  As for the rear-facing M/S pair I'm curious to see how well that provides "stereozed surround" information using the current single rear-facing mic.  These two side-mic channels may be discarded without any impact on the "normal" 6-channel setup. 

The bendable gooseneck section on the 4098s makes arranging them so as to be coincident with the X-8S really easy.  I can't imagine a more closely coincident two mic M/S setup.  I just gaff taped the mic pair to the fore/aft facing mic bar.  To allow for proper polarity orientation of the font X-8s, I notched out one of the holes in the bar to allow the cable from the chopped right-angle XLR to exit downwards through the hole without interference from the bar.

The big Shure screens fit over the front and rear-facing M/S pairs for wind protection.  I used the Audix foam windscreens on the side-facing 4098s, with the hair curler foam inserts in them which I mentioned above, plus an additional outer foam layer from a ball-mic windscreen (probably Shures) which fit nicely over the Audix foams.  The small foam inserts from the Audix foams were used on the 4061 omnis, simply slipping over both the mic and the end of the TV antenna.

First photos show the mics, with one 4098 laying atop one of the X-8S for length comparison, two of the new female microdot to stereo mini-XLR cables I made to connect them to the Naiant PFAs, and the PFAs.  The third shows the tri-nested windscreen arrangement for the side-facing 4098 pair-

« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 10:09:51 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #171 on: March 24, 2016, 12:35:32 PM »
Close ups of the front/back Mid/Side arrangements with the 4098 "goosenecked" around the X-8S for optimal coincidence-
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #172 on: March 24, 2016, 12:43:00 PM »
The side facing 4098's are spaced ~32" apart.  Adjusting the spacing changes the Stereo Recording Angle of the OCT 3-mic triplet, and one meter makes for about +/- 45 degrees or 90 degrees in total, which is appropriate for the distance from the stage in the amphitheater where I would be recording.  32" just fits under the umbrella in case of rain.  Note the bend in the gooseneck which accommodates the windscreens.  Alternately I could poke a hole through the screens for the TV antennas to pass through, leaving the mic body adjacent to the antenna tube. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 10:12:58 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #173 on: March 24, 2016, 12:52:03 PM »
Only three stereo-wired mini-XLRs accommodates all signal connections for the primary 6-channel rig.  The experimental addition of the two X-8S use standard balanced XLR cables (chopped well used Gakcables, thanks Ted). 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 03:48:50 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #174 on: March 24, 2016, 01:00:26 PM »
Revised umbrella mount with just a simple nut to screw the umbrella atop the stand.  Simpler and faster than using a Windtech clamp, and better centers the umbrella to maximize coverage.  The side facing 4098s fit just barely under the edge of the umbrella at this spacing.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #175 on: March 24, 2016, 01:12:04 PM »
Very sweet, simple yet complex. I dig the method of creating MS with the NAIANT X-8S and DPA supercard. I'm only a bit covetous of the fine DPA's in your collection!  ;D >:D
Thanks for the snaps and explanations of how you use them.
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Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #176 on: March 24, 2016, 01:14:55 PM »
Thanks man!

Set up at the fest.  Pre-rigged and ready to record out of the carry bag. Moble rig on small stand before being hoisted to hang from the top of the tall stand.  Tall stand is double dog-screwed into the ground.  Last photo also shows Dnugs rig, also using TV antennas to space omnis is one row in front, with T-90's mics clamped to his stand.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 03:50:36 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #177 on: March 24, 2016, 01:20:06 PM »
Umbrella up.  Each TV antenna attaches to the edge of the umbrella with an elastic hair band, which stabilizes both the umbrella and arms, secures the geometry, and makes sure the rain coverage remains secure.  T-90s mics are clamped underneath mine with a Windtech.

I used a Grace V3 to provide P48 to the rear facing M/S pair and as a way of recording those additional two channels onto the DR-680 via it's digital input (making for 8 recorded channels in total with the inclusion of the digital "stereo channel").

Channel assignment of the analog input channels on the DR-680 changed only slightly from before, to allow front M/S decoding of that pair during stereo mix playback directly from the recorder:
ch 1&2 = 6' spaced 4061 omni pair
ch 3 = center forward-facing 4098
ch 4 = center forward X-8S (side mic, front)
ch 5&6 = sideways facing 4098 pair (spaced ~32", forming an OCT triplet with the center 4098)
stereo channel left = center rear-facing 4098 (digital input)
stereo channel right= center rear X-8S (side mic, rear; digital input)

(Files were recorded as stereo pairs on the DR-680. Usually the rear-facing directional mic occupies ch 4)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 03:56:34 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #178 on: March 27, 2016, 11:18:58 PM »
Thanks for posting those microdot cable links, Lee. I just bought a pair of 12' extensions for my 4060's.
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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #179 on: March 28, 2016, 09:25:41 AM »
Good to hear, Mike.  I'm happy with these cables.  The female microdots at the mic end of the cable eliminate the need for microdot barrel adapters (the barrels work well but can be easy to loose), and I like the RG174 flexible cable.  I wasn't sure which choice of the multiple cable types they have available would be most appropriate, but the these seem well suited to our use as mic cables, and aren't as costly as some of the other cable types intended for signals well above the audio frequency range. Were you able to order them with male dots on one end instead of female on both ends?

For others reading this thread, here's the source for the microdot terminated cables were talking about-  https://www.cdint.com/catalog/category/Cables/RG174+flexible/10-32+female.  I posted that link along with a few photos in the Team DPA thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175358.msg2179858#msg2179858.  I ordered the cables terminated with female microdots on both ends, twice as long as I needed, cut them in half and retermintated the cut ends to the stereo wired TA3F mini-XLR pictured above, for connection to the Naiant PFAs.   The cable is easy to work with and I found the center conductor larger and much easier to strip and solder than the integral cables of the DPA miniature omnis.
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