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Author Topic: Oddball microphone techniques - part 1  (Read 73677 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #300 on: October 27, 2017, 10:48:09 AM »
Wonderland is bottomless AFAIK. Avoid tousles with the red queen.

Yeah, you'll want to try and reduce pickup of the PA and stage in that mic as much as possible.  An audience facing cardioid is probably the ticket.
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Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #301 on: October 27, 2017, 11:58:30 AM »
How coincident to the Mid/center mics would the rear-facing mic want to be?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #302 on: October 27, 2017, 12:41:47 PM »
Don't need to be coincident.  Think of it like room ambience mics.  Only need coincidence for the M/S front facing pair intended to provide left/right stereo imaging. 

From a few posts back in the context of my array-
I also would like to ask if the forward and rear microphones must be coincident? If the  forward and rear microphones are spaced, can we neglect the comb filtering in Mid-Side mixing? Or is there need for minimal spacing?

Quote
..the mics don't need to be coincident.  Mine aren't. In the rigs I've talked about here I have about a 12" to 15" spacing between the front and rear facing mics.  That could probably be more or less without issue.  As mentioned I'm not sure if coincident would be quite as good, but front/back spacing isn't nearly as important as left/right spacing.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #303 on: October 27, 2017, 12:46:21 PM »
Sure, it can work in small clubs.  And no the mics don't need to be coincident.  Mine aren't. In the rigs I've talked about here I have about a 12" to 15" spacing between the front and rear facing mics.  That could probably be less without issue.  As mentioned I'm not sure if coincident would be quite as good, but front/back spacing isn't nearly as important as left/right spacing.  It works great on my stealth recordings made with 4 baffled omnis pointing in each direction. Front/Back separation is probably 8" in that case, left/right about 20", but the omnis are made directional by the baffling so the narrower left/right spacing works fine. Part of the coolness is you dial in as much rear mic as is appropriate using the width control. If you want none in there no problem, but even in small clubs I usually want some.

Thank you very much, I'm looking forward to trying this. I will write how it will turn out.

Audience recording is so creative field - microphone arrays, stealth four baffled omnis, ortf-3d with shotgun ...The theory that is behind is also very interesting.
When we have been running the center rear and fwd facing mics, we have tended to use cards (ck61's) and they have been anywhere from 8-16 inches apart. We have tried the center fwd using AKG ck8 "shotgun" then using a ck61 for the rear.
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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #304 on: October 27, 2017, 01:13:06 PM »
Kyle, try the front/back Mid/Side thing, I've had you in mind. 

Somewhat more confident in my smaller club recommendation after discussing your variants.  My primary hesitation in small clubs are the omnis and the rear mic..

But may give the 6-channel outdoor-intended rig (with wide omnis and rear) a go at Magpie Salute in a medium sized indoor club tonight.  Partly because that rig is all setup and I'll be pressed for time, meaning its easier to run than reconfigure for what I'd normally do in that room.  May be a good test even if the omnis aren't ideal in that space (my suspicion).

What I'd normally do in that room as a small-club variant of all this is run 4 channels with the Gefell supercards replacing the wide omnis, spaced around 2' apart and angled around +/- 45 degrees (more or less pointing outside of stacks) with a M/S pair in the center (DPA 4098/Naiant X-8S), without a rear-facing microphone.  That spacing is what works with the mounting system I use there.  Its also more compact aloft, more forwardly directional, and more tailored in low-frequency pickup to typical indoor club applications.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #305 on: October 28, 2017, 06:01:23 AM »
When we have been running the center rear and fwd facing mics, we have tended to use cards (ck61's) and they have been anywhere from 8-16 inches apart. We have tried the center fwd using AKG ck8 "shotgun" then using a ck61 for the rear.

Rocksuitcase, was it a big change when you used ck8 as the forward microphone?

My primary hesitation in small clubs are the omnis and the rear mic..

I'm going to record in a small club in a month and a half. I'm sending pictures of the club. There is a beautiful sound. Do not be fooled by the big windows, they were able to solve the acoustics. For me it's a mystery how they did, but they have the best sound in the city.
I do not record often there. But when I am taping, I usually do an audience recording by the soundboard in the back of the room. (For some reason, I have never made a good balanced stage lip recording and sbd feed sounds little strange there). It is a great sound by the soundboard, I can record with an omni pair there. PA is slightly stereo, but it's negligible in the room. Here is an example of recording - naks omni, spaced 1.5', by sbd.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0lpmTYweTrEVFhYbFozcTktdms/view?usp=sharing

I have Chris Church omni and I can make a greater spacing. I also have nak300 cards and SPC4 hypers. Would you recommend some configuration? Do you think Gutbucket's configuration is going to work here or should i stay with one pair only?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 06:30:47 AM by kuba e »

Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #306 on: October 28, 2017, 07:45:21 PM »
Happy Birthday, Lee!
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #307 on: October 28, 2017, 09:43:00 PM »
But when I am taping, I usually do an audience recording by the soundboard in the back of the room. (For some reason, I have never made a good balanced stage lip recording and sbd feed sounds little strange there). It is a great sound by the soundboard, I can record with an omni pair there.
Have you tried a matrix with aud and the sbd? 
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
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Online kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #308 on: October 29, 2017, 11:26:11 AM »
Happy Birthday, Lee!
Happy Birthday too!

Have you tried a matrix with aud and the sbd? 
You are right, sbd and aud is great. And I like audience recording on one's own too, it has it's magic. That's why I like to try other new configurations, try to do a bit better audience recording step by step. I do not record often, but I like this recording theory, making it much more fun.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #309 on: October 29, 2017, 04:03:16 PM »
When we have been running the center rear and fwd facing mics, we have tended to use cards (ck61's) and they have been anywhere from 8-16 inches apart. We have tried the center fwd using AKG ck8 "shotgun" then using a ck61 for the rear.
Rocksuitcase, was it a big change when you used ck8 as the forward microphone?
OK- first to one major topic- Lee and I have discussed the possibility of using the 4 channel oddball technique indoors and kindms and I have done so about 5-6 times BUT this is still not highly recommended and IMO a "lesser" feature or usage for the 4 channel and certainly the 6 channel oddball technique. IMO- to be successful indoors, the PA must be very high quality and run by an FOH who knows his equipment (e.g. we did Phish at MSG twice using a 6 channel approach, great results because they give a shit about their PA).

The decision to use AKG ck8 vs a cardiod or hypercardiod was based on Lee's discussion of using a "directional as you can" mic in the middle in certain situations. Kindms and I often record at the Cap Theatre in Portchester NY and have decided the PA is so wide and the roof is so tall there is a pronounced hole in the middle, As in we feel we hear it as lacking punch and vocal presence for several of our attempts there. So, we thought let's try the ck8 in the middle. First we tried it as the mid mic in a MS take, using his 414XLSII for the side fig8. Better than our previous 2-3 channel efforts in that room; certainly brought out more center vocals being the main quality difference. Then we ran it indoors a couple of times in less than great PA rooms and really have no reference good or bad. At that point I'd rather run a two channel rig or SBD/2xAUD if possible. For each of these let's stipulate this was loud Rock n Roll with VG to EX PA's.

Then we had good fortune to run 4 days in a row at Greyfox 2016 and tried most of our configs we could. We even ran the ck8 at the same time as a ck61 facing fwd JUST to do this comparison. During the mix down of this evening I chose the ck61 (cardiod) twice and the ck8 once (looking for LMA links if any(the only one up used the ck61's-Elephant Revival https://archive.org/details/erevival2016-07-16.ck22ck61-photos added). As to why I chose the ck8 in that instance I can say it was more presence in the vocals and mids than the 61. It really does show you that even with the same PA and recording configuration that program material/instrumental make up also plays a choice when mixing this stuff down (or in any decision as to which config to run)
Since then we have run the 4 or 6 mic AUD only variation at least a dozen more times, mostly outdoors and have used ck8 2-3 of those times. I have also had the good fortune to record 10 in a row series of noon free shows at the Egg using the 4 channel variant adding SBD to the mix with 8 of those (again no ck8). https://archive.org/details/adamezra2017-07-05.akgck2261-24

edit to add mic details for those playing along: (2 rigs, the outside AKGck22 Omni's spread 100 cm, AKGck8 0'; akgck61 naiant PFA 0' (4 mics into a DR680); then two AKG c414 XLS-II > HDP2 on this day ran in Omni what we called the "omni shootout")
edit2 to add third pic with umbrellas and windscreen on the ck8
 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 12:22:19 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Online kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #310 on: October 29, 2017, 05:38:46 PM »
Thank you for your detailed explanation. Gutbucket, you and Kindms have done many experiments. It can be seen that a lot of work has been done for the oddball technique. It's big help for us. I understand, the oddball technique can be useful where there is great acoustics, this is especially true indoor. It is also very interesting to read about your comparison of ck8 and ck61 as the forward microphone.

I like a lot Elephant recording. It's a very quality recording, very delicate.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #311 on: October 30, 2017, 11:50:46 AM »
^ That's Kyle (Rocksuitcase).

OK- first to one major topic- Lee and I have discussed the possibility of using the 4 channel oddball technique indoors and kindms and I have done so about 5-6 times BUT this is still not highly recommended and IMO a "lesser" feature or usage for the 4 channel and certainly the 6 channel oddball technique. IMO- to be successful indoors, the PA must be very high quality and run by an FOH who knows his equipment (e.g. we did Phish at MSG twice using a 6 channel approach, great results because they give a shit about their PA).

Alright, partly exploring using the outdoor oddball techniques indoors, I busted out two different open oddball rigs indoors last weekend.  Both in the same medium-sized room- Revolution Live in Ft Lauderdale, FL with decent but not super-great sound, generally too much subs; same recording location- back of pit, just in front of the board, DFC, AUD only (room sweet spot is about 15' forward at the center of the pit floor); same music genre- Southern rock-ish; two different but setups.  The first a 4ch indoor oddball setup I've run there in the past, the second my now-standard outdoor 6 channel oddball setup which includes the wide omnis.

Will post some some details, setup photos, and thoughts about it when I get the chance. Spoiler- The wide omnis were great, and I miss them in their absence. I'm no longer reluctant to run the main outdoor oddball setup indoors, except for when the wideness of the physical setup doesn't work for practical reasons (no problem with that here, as the coming photos will illustrate).

Fun weekend.  For Magpie Salute Marc Ford sat in a chair (somewhat Houser like) nursing a recently dislocated rib.  Good energy and guitar interplay a la Black Crows, and a fun time with friends I'd not seen in a long while.  And The Marcus King Band impresses me more each time I see them, part Allmans, part DTB, real southern soul and phenomenal talents.  Catch them if you can.  The future of music is safe with these cats doing their thing.  Really good in so many ways.


Happy Birthday, Lee!

Hey thanks, says this couple days older, wiser, happier guy!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #312 on: October 30, 2017, 12:38:16 PM »
I have Chris Church omni and I can make a greater spacing. I also have nak300 cards and SPC4 hypers. Would you recommend some configuration? Do you think Gutbucket's configuration is going to work here or should i stay with one pair only?
IMO, (and hopefully Gutbucket will post his opinion): Go with the wide omnis (3 feet minimum if possible) and the hypercard pair in a narrow X-Y (60' or less) in the middle. Lee has extolled his reasoning for this variant which can be summarized as: Using the Hypers X-Y gives you a semblance of a "fall-back|normal config" pair in the middle with the omnis outside to add to the mix. We have run this method a few times using our AKGc460b pre-amps with ck3 hyper capsule. It is becoming my go-to config for 4 channels in avg to normal spacing from stage (FOB, 40-60 feet from stacks)
edit to add mic config info:
2xAKG ck22 Omnis on 460 pre-amps using A60 knuckles|adapters spread 100cm; 2xAKGck3 X-Y 60' on 460 pre-amps -> Tascam DR680; 2x AKG c414XLS-II in sub card-> Tascam HDP2 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 02:18:29 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #313 on: October 30, 2017, 01:02:56 PM »
^Yep. I concur.

Your sample of the 1.5' spaced Nak omnis sounds quite good.  Good spacing for an omni pair used on its own in that situation.

The addition of the center pair of PAS-angled X/Y supercards will heighten vocal clarity a bit more (which is already pretty good for omnis inside at that distance), and you'll want to space the omnis more to give that center pair room to do its thing in the middle.

Narrow-angled X/Y cardioids instead of the supers would also work and might be better.  I say that because even the omnis alone are providing decent clarity and presence so you don't need as much directionality as possible at the possible expense of timbre and smoothness.  You aren't fighting the room so much, so it probably depends more on the sound of your supers verses the sound of the cardioids and which you prefer.. I should clarify that your preference in combination with the omnis may be different than your preference for the cards or supers used on their own.   The omnis will fix/cover some of what you might not care so much for when either directional pair are used alone.

If your first test of this setup is encouraging, you might try the other pattern in the middle the next time and see which you prefer.

How deep is the room behind the recording position?  Is there anything behind the board or is it up against the back wall?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #314 on: October 30, 2017, 05:09:38 PM »
If your first test of this setup is encouraging, you might try the other pattern in the middle the next time and see which you prefer.
Lee and Kyle, you are right, I must try and compare. I have all information for start. Kyle, your rig is cool. It inspired me, I will try to find solution to mount two coincident pairs in the center to see how they work with omni.


How deep is the room behind the recording position?  Is there anything behind the board or is it up against the back wall?
The room is half for seating and the back is for standing. I place stand near the board which is located about 2/3 of the room. People usually stand behind board. But if there is a smaller visit, this place is empty and the board is against back wall. I do not estimate distance, but it could be about 15'-20'. I am going there to see Medeski. He is coming to Prague with Kirk Joseph, Will Bernard and Julian Addison. It's great to see them live and moreover in my most favorite club in town.

Fun weekend.  For Magpie Salute Marc Ford sat in a chair (somewhat Houser like) nursing a recently dislocated rib.  Good energy and guitar interplay a la Black Crows, and a fun time with friends I'd not seen in a long while.  And The Marcus King Band impresses me more each time I see them, part Allmans, part DTB, real southern soul and phenomenal talents.  Catch them if you can.  The future of music is safe with these cats doing their thing.  Really good in so many ways.
I heard Magpie Salute recording from their current tour. Old good music. And I would like to see Marcus King live too. I hope that sometimes these bands will come to Europe.

 

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