Topic: First outdoor recording. Using cards or omnis?

[jlykos]

Some omnis, like the Microtech Gefell M27 capsules, have a high-frequency boost and are designed for far-field recording.  That, combined with their lower sensitivity to wind noise, means that I run them every chance I get outdoors.

[guitard]

I did a recording in Toronto about a decade ago at a major intersection known for being a wind-tunnel and even with the windsocks, you could hear the odd passing of wind.

Nothing fancy like a wind tunnel - but my Dad used to fart so loud, you could hear it through the wall in the next room.

[adrianf74]

I did a recording in Toronto about a decade ago at a major intersection known for being a wind-tunnel and even with the windsocks, you could hear the odd passing of wind.

Nothing fancy like a wind tunnel - but my Dad used to fart so loud, you could hear it through the wall in the next room.

Okay... just noticed that.  Good one..

I think I was trying to say that you could hear wind passing by the mics.

[MSTaper]

Good info, but what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?

What's the best configuration to use?

Thanks.

MSTaper

[pigpen2604]

Good info, but what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?

What's the best configuration to use?

Thanks.

MSTaper

I'd like to know this as well.

[Brian Skalinder]

what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?

What's the best configuration to use?

There's no simple answer.  It depends a lot on the type of sound one enjoys and appreciates and the environment in which one records.  Some people like widely split omnis.  Some like a smaller split.  Others prefer baffled omnis (e.g. Jecklin disc).  Some people have a certain tolerance and/or appreciation for a degree of ambient / reverberant sound.  Others have a much higher a lower tolerance.

In general, I found I could get away with omnis from a farther distance outdoors v. indoors, since there's usually less reverberant sound outdoors.

General consideration:  However it sounds to your ears from the recording location, omnis will sound similar.  So if it's boomy, or muddy, or distant, etc., you'll likely achieve a similar result running omnis.

[MSTaper]

Cool, thanks Brian. I'd try it tonight, but my son has the Avantones at Bonnaroo. It's Church cards DFC!

I'll have another chance later this month.

MSTaper

[huskerbrewdad]

No one has really addressed it, but what about running both?

[Shadow_7]

Good info, but what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?

What's the best configuration to use?

Thanks.

MSTaper

It depends on how you define good.
It depends on how loud the group is.
It depends on how that balances to the ambient noises.

I'm generally 2x's as far from the stage as the stage and/or group is wide.  But my thing is generally large groups and not so large crowds.  And that distance is probably determined by my camcorder, not my audio gear.  I consider it good, but that might be a function of how much I've spent on gear.  I don't really see getting much further back and still yielding good results with OMNI's since the only stereo separation you'd get is if you aimed the mics away from the group.  Or had a realllllly spaced pair.

[Gutbucket]

what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?

What's the best configuration to use?

There's no simple answer.  It depends a lot on the type of sound one enjoys and appreciates and the environment in which one records.  Some people like widely split omnis.  Some like a smaller split.  Others prefer baffled omnis (e.g. Jecklin disc).  Some people have a certain tolerance and/or appreciation for a degree of ambient / reverberant sound.  Others have a much higher a lower tolerance.

In general, I found I could get away with omnis from a farther distance outdoors v. indoors, since there's usually less reverberant sound outdoors.

General consideration:  However it sounds to your ears from the recording location, omnis will sound similar.  So if it's boomy, or muddy, or distant, etc., you'll likely achieve a similar result running omnis.

Spot on, Brian. Well put.
 
I use omnis a lot, both indoors and out.  It’s tricker to use them indoors and usually requires placing them closer to the stage for the reasons mentioned above. In general it’s easier to use them outdoors so that’s a good place to try first if less familiar with them, also because they have some advantages outdoors such as less susceptibility to wind noise.  They work well at a distance outdoors, yet closer is still usually better, simply because it sounds better closer.  But that’s usually the case regardless of pickup pattern for a lot of reasons: higher signal to noise ratio (aka- music to blabber ratio), less frequency attenuation by the air itself, less distance for wind to push the sound around before it gets to the mics, more enveloping sound when the source is wider as viewed from the mic position, more focused crowd energy, etc.

I'll mention a couple unusual distant mic’ing scenarios where omnis have been superior, just to emphasize 'it depends':

1) Boundary mounted omnis indoors on the back wall or front balcony surface of a venue has sometimes worked better for me, with less boom and room reflection problems than cardioids from the same location.  But boundary mounting them changes the nature of an omnidirectional mic to a more directional one and introduces other unique boundary mounting traits that help that situation, so it’s really a whole different pickup pattern and microphone response.  It also isn’t a very common mic’ing approach for concert recording.

2) All the space shuttle or rocket launch recordings I’ve heard have been done with omnis at at distance of many, many miles, and the ‘talent’ is never mic’d through the PA.   Same goes for most good thunderstorm recordings, trains through valleys and other far-ambient ‘takes you are there’ non-concert stuff.

[manitouman]

Looking back, the original post mentions that this will be a  recording. So really configuration is whatever is easiest to not get caught and come out with something instead of nothing.

I've ran omni's in a baseball field where the stage was set in the back of the field and I was in the last row of the first seated sections in the stand and it turned out good. So it can be done but you run the risk of not getting anything worthwhile. I had two rigs at the time and was pretty much experimenting with the omni's. That's how I know that if you run under a shed in an outdoor venue (Alpine Valley, Tinley Park come to mind) then you will have a recording that sounds like shit. Believe me, I know.

When not able to get that 3' or however long split, I have had some success running Healy with my omni's. As a matter of fact that's what I'll be running for Panic on the Rocks later this month. Being able to run closer to the sound source has it's disadvantages. While running for the two Petty shows on the Rocks, I had someone bump me up to the second row VIP section because they wanted to sit with their friends who happened to be sitting next to me. The booje that sit's down there will make your skin crawl when you are trying to record and they just want to talk to their friends or worse yet, try talking to you. Chalk it up to experience and hope the next one will turn out better.

Speaking of omni's, I started with a pair of Core Sound Binaurals. I had excellent results outdoors but couldn't figure out why my recordings indoors sounded like I was in a phone booth or public bathroom. I was referred to this board and that's where I picked up the little education I have now about concert recording. I'm no expert or even on the intermediate level by no means. I just know what has worked for me and this board has been able to shape this hobby into a 99% success rate of recordings for me. Without that, I'd still be hit or miss on my tapes.

[Gutbucket]

..I know that if you run under a shed in an outdoor venue (Alpine Valley, Tinley Park come to mind) then you will have a recording that sounds like shit. Believe me, I know..

IME, omnis rarely work in big outdoor tents for the same reason- major problems imposed by mid frequencies reflected off the tent's cathedral ceiling, even though the bass frequencies which cause boominess in regular rooms pretty much pass right through.

[Massive Dynamic]

IME, omnis rarely work in big outdoor tents for the same reason- major problems imposed by mid frequencies reflected off the tent's cathedral ceiling, even though the bass frequencies which cause boominess in regular rooms pretty much pass right through.

Hmmm, I'll have the chance to record both outdoors and under tents at an upcoming festival. Outdoors, I'm tempted to run blumlein with my LSD2. Would there be any advantage to using spaced omnis instead? Recommended spacing?

Under the tents, blumlein or cards @ 120º is what I've run before. Would there be any advantage to running baffled omnis instead of the LSD2? Attached is a pic where I've had both mounted on one stand.

[admkrk]

i can't afford the caps to try blumlein, however, given the choice i'd run spaced omnis in a field first and blumlien inside first.   

i'm not talking from experience tho. only wishful thinking.

[Gutbucket]

I agree.  If you want to run the omnis, outside is probably a safer bet. Spacing depends alot on personal preference, how stereo the PA is, and distance.  ~3' often works for me.  Blumlein is like omnis in horizontal sensitivity, but is the least sensitive of any array to sounds from above and below.  So it could be better in a tent, but there is still probably plenty of sound bouncing around horizontally.  The LSD2 is a safer bet in the tents unless you have the omnis up at the stage-lip for something instrumental.