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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: bish on July 22, 2008, 07:23:10 PM
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Which is better????
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Chocolate or vanilla? Which one is better?
It is all personal preference, there is no such thing (IMO) as which microphone or cap is better. I prefer AKG.
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Beyerdynamic MC930 ;D
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Agree with Carl. You need to listen to archive and decide for yourself. Asking that question is simply just asking what people's opinions are which really means nothing. Personally, I've owned both and I liked the sound and personality of the 184s better, but you can't go wrong with the AKGs either, especially when you consider that you have capsule options.
The other thing is that some mics will perform better in some situations than others, although I'm not sure I know the formula to get the stars aligned perfectly. For example, I pulled a recording from last years All Good (Ozric Tentacles) with the 481s that I'd put up against ANY mics out there, including the priciest of the pricey...it was just the right combination of music, mic location, cables, etc that added up to what I feel was my single best recording ever. But hedging this statement, I've also made some fantastic sounding recordings with the 184s.
Bottom line is to spend a minimum of 2 hours on archive listening to multiple samples of both and make up your mind based on what pleases your ears.
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for me it also depends on what you are running them into
for example i HATE AKG into a 7xx
but Love them into a fr2le
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Chocolate or vanilla? Which one is better?
Vanilla.
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Twist.........Don't forget about the Ho's.
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Beyerdynamic MC930 ;D
:coolguy: +t
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Beyerdynamic MC930 ;D
:coolguy: +t
backacha. In all seriousness... both mics (and the beyers, and the mbho) will make fine recordings. The AKG (and mbho's) have the advantage of being able to purchase multiple caps, but the majority of us run just cardioids. Try to find some recording made in your area with the mics if at all possible. That may help narrow it down as well.
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Thanks for the info guys the help, i have a pair of 480B w/ 61 cap but i am looking for a brighter sound ?????[
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wow. really? i dont know of anything more bright than a 480. mbho maybe.
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Chocolate or vanilla? Which one is better?
It is all personal preference, there is no such thing (IMO) as which microphone or cap is better. I prefer AKG.
exactly what carl said.. they both are very fine mikes for field recording, and both have their own "sound"... just depends on which sound ya dig. IMO the akg's are brighter (aka the akg "sizzle") while the neumann's are smoother and more natural sounding to my ears (aka "silky" sound).. either one is a fine choice! (as is the aforementioned mc930's, but that doesnt answer your question.. I could list lots of mics that are as "good" as the ones you are asking about)
I hope this helps.. and good luck!
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Chocolate or vanilla? Which one is better?
It is all personal preference, there is no such thing (IMO) as which microphone or cap is better. I prefer AKG.
exactly what carl said.. they both are very fine mikes for field recording, and both have their own "sound"... just depends on which sound ya dig. IMO the akg's are brighter (aka the akg "sizzle") while the neumann's are smoother and more natural sounding to my ears (aka "silky" sound).. either one is a fine choice! (as is the aforementioned mc930's, but that doesnt answer your question.. I could list lots of mics that are as "good" as the ones you are asking about)
I hope this helps.. and good luck!
In my opinion Beyerdynamic MC930 sound better than either AKG or Neumann. Cheaper price too. Why not go with these? The only plus of the Neumann IMO is the (slightly) smaller size. But if you're going to put them on a stand, I see no problem.
Richard
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Thanks for the info guys the help, i have a pair of 480B w/ 61 cap but i am looking for a brighter sound ?????[
For my ears 480's are brighter then ho's and the Neuman and the 930's are very transparent mics. Have you listened to DPA and shoep samples because maybe brighter is not really what your looking for. If those two are out of your budget like they are for me check out the MBHO's ans see what they sound like to ya.
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In my opinion Beyerdynamic MC930 sound better than either AKG or Neumann.
Again it's all personal opinion. You'll find alot of folks in the AKG camp and alot in the others as well. As a current/former owner of all three (480, KM140, MBHO) I would rank them on brightness like this:
MBHO
AKG
Neumann
The MBHO's to me are significantly brighter than the other two The Neumann's I would never call transparent maybe more of a mid section than the AKG's and Ho's.
The AKG's I feel are the most versatile of the three. For me if I was considering mics in the class of the above three the Beyer's would not even enter into the conversation. FWIW after owning all three I still have the AKG's with no intention to ever sell them. If you are wanting to brighten them up there are several preamps that will help with the high end if that's what you want.
But again it's all personal opinion.
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i would think you could use a grace v3 to make the 481's brighter.
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For me if I was considering mics in the class of the above three the Beyer's would not even enter into the conversation.
Why not? Have you ever actually tried them yourself? Just curious.
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Thanks for the info guys the help, i have a pair of 480B w/ 61 cap but i am looking for a brighter sound ?????[
change the cables/ or preamp you run if you are looking for brighter sound.
Maybe find some silver's.
Myself I find them brought enough for me with the v3 and zaolla's while still bringing the low end.
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i would think you could use a grace v3 to make the 481's brighter.
Exactly! The brightness of the 480 > V3 is one of the reasons why I picked up the 248 to run with them because for me they were a bit too bright for my liking sometimes.
For me if I was considering mics in the class of the above three the Beyer's would not even enter into the conversation.
Why not? Have you ever actually tried them yourself? Just curious.
To be honest I have not run them myself. I have listened to a good number of shows with the Beyer's recently. I think they are a nice sounding microphone and mean no disrespect to them but for my personal tastes they run a distant fourth. Again personal opinion as I am sure there are folks who find the 480's distant third on their own lists. Just not my cup of tea for the price range.
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Exactly! The brightness of the 480 > V3 is one of the reasons why I picked up the 248 to run with them because for me they were a bit too bright for my liking sometimes.
this also why i used to run 46/8x>m148>v3. too much sizzle.
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i would think you could use a grace v3 to make the 481's brighter.
Definitely!
Or, for other AKG mics that are brighter than 480/ck61 regardless of the pre, you could also go to the vintage 451 or 452/ck1
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I am sure there are folks who find the 480's distant third on their own lists.
A distant third? That's being generous. :P
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I am sure there are folks who find the 480's distant third on their own lists.
A distant third? That's being generous. :P
;D
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save your money and buy some used 460's instead of the 480's.
they sound better, and are available all over the place.
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I prefer the 184s over the 481s. I have owned both 140/50s and 481/3s. The AKG 'sizzle' got kind of annoying after a year of owning them. I still have the AK50s, a great cap for boomy venues.
I have to agree with rockpunk, I do enjoy the sound of the unmod'd 460s over 480s lately. MOTB #005!
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save your money and buy some used 460's instead of the 480's.
they sound better, and are available all over the place.
Yep, proud 460 owner here too. Long live the transformer!
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the 460's with the reducer ring and the ck1 cap sound nice I much prefer the ck 1 cap to the 61 but ymmv
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the 460's with the reducer ring and the ck1 cap sound nice I much prefer the ck 1 cap to the 61 but ymmv
I agree, and 460s with ck1 caps may fit with the original poster's wishes. The stock 460s with the ck6_ capsules probably would not, however, since he said he's looking for something brighter than the 480/ck61. Stock 460s are decided darker sounding and less detailed than the 480s, though an equal or better mic IMO but for different reasons.
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don't own either
but have recorded with them
it's what your ears (and your playback system) like
personally I like the 184's but would prefer the 140's or may be KM84's
over the 460 or 480
but that's me
in general
but I have heard great recordings with both
sounds like you (or someone) should arrange a comp
• same stand same pattern same show
• same or similar decks and pres
that would be cool and help to decide
but
I have neither
so its just my peanut gallery suggestion
peace
thru (Sharing) Music
-- Ian
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save your money and buy some used 460's instead of the 480's.
they sound better, and are available all over the place.
Yep, proud 460 owner here too. Long live the transformer!
Yep, I like the 460 better than the 480. The 480 sounds a bit too edgy, seems to be distorting *to me*. I used the ck63 caps.
Richard
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went 480>ck61/ck63>460>a60>ck1/ck3 and couldnt be happier.
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Quick story....
I own a sound company here in Baltimore. A couple of years ago a few of my engineers and I decided to do a condenser shootout to see which sounded "best" as a high-hat mic. We set up a PA system outside, and set up a drum kit in the shop to isolate it. We mic'ed the kit and had about 8 condensers on the high-hats. Obviously they weren't all in the exact same spot, but they were as close as we could get them. We tested Schoeps CMC6/MK4, AKG 480/ck61, AKG 460/ck61, Neumann KM184, Audix Micro series, plus some others that I can't seem to recall this early in the pre-coffee morning. Long story short, we each kept a small journal of notes, then, when we were done listening to all of the mics, we compared notes. All 4 of us preferred the sound of the 460/ck61 over all the others....so much so that we sold off the Neumanns and bought more 460's.
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I'll kick in my own opinion on the mics discussed.
1. 480 / 460 = gobs of detail. classic AKG shimmery high end..., love them. made nothing but excellent tapes. I went from these to the Beyer CK930 set.
2. Beyer..., nice mics. sort of dark sounding. very "musical" and pleasing. not much for hyper detail like the AKG and neumanns.
3. neumanns, colored. and if you like that sound (the wet, squishy neumann sound, i typically refer to it as), then there really is nothing else.
I would not put the Beyer in the same class, imo.
there is a reason why a pair of them costs $700. and its not because Beyerdynamic has enough $$ to offer "something for next to nothing" in this catagory of high-end studio condensers.
IMO, of course. the AKG 480 / ck61 is definitely the most transparent of the pack. And building off of RockPunk's test, AKGs just "jump out at you" w/any sort of percussion. That is why they are my favorite mic for band that are drum/perc heavy. WSP, prime example. nothing tapes Panic better than AKG.
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Having been thru both mod 461/463's and 140's, I definitely prefer Neumann cards. Never was really happy with any AKG card tapes.
But if I ever lived somewhere where I would need a set of hypers and couldn't pony up for ck41's, I'd definitely pickup a set of 63's.
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I'm with Nick in the fact that I wouldn't put the beyers in the same class. They are most definitly in a class above the akg's 480's and neumanns 184's. Personally, I can't stand the sound of the 480/ck61. The neumanns are nice, but nothing special. Sound muffled on the top end (why I prefer the beyers). Owned two pairs (930's and 803's), both for at least a year and have run with a wide variety of preamps/ad's. Currently own milabs. They sound great, but not 1000 dollars better. In fact, i still prefer the beyers. I will probably go back to beyers. Never will own akg's (have run them plenty). Never will I own shempz (for obvious reasons >:D ), and never will I own ho's (can't fucking stand them). Like rockpunk, I did a shootout one night. On an acoustic Martin guitar one night. There is a pic in rig pics from a few years ago detailing this shootout. The beyers won hands down.
Sometimes we need to quit thinking that more expenisive means better.
Sometimes we need to own mics more than 2 months and run with a variety of different gear to formulate an opinion. ;)
Sometimes (all the time) there will be differing opinions.
Sometimes mics are better suited for differing situations.
Sometimes (all the time) these thread topics are ridiculous.
Listen and make a decision for yourself.
To sum up my opinion,
The reason why one person will choose a certain mic is the exact same reason why the next person will not.
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Sometimes we need to own mics more than 2 months and run with a variety of different gear to formulate an opinion. ;)
BLASPHEMY !
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Sometimes we need to own mics more than 2 months and run with a variety of different gear to formulate an opinion. ;)
BLASPHEMY !
How many pairs of akg's and neumann's have you owned over the years? I wonder why the 2 pairs of beyers remain in your locker and there are no neumanns or 480's? ;) >:D
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Sometimes we need to own mics more than 2 months and run with a variety of different gear to formulate an opinion. ;)
BLASPHEMY !
How many pairs of akg's and neumann's have you owned over the years? I wonder why the 2 pairs of beyers remain in your locker and there are no neumanns or 480's? ;) >:D
;D
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I'll kick in my own opinion on the mics discussed.
1. 480 / 460 = gobs of detail. classic AKG shimmery high end..., love them. made nothing but excellent tapes. I went from these to the Beyer CK930 set.
2. Beyer..., nice mics. sort of dark sounding. very "musical" and pleasing. not much for hyper detail like the AKG and neumanns.
3. neumanns, colored. and if you like that sound (the wet, squishy neumann sound, i typically refer to it as), then there really is nothing else.
I would not put the Beyer in the same class, imo.
there is a reason why a pair of them costs $700. and its not because Beyerdynamic has enough $$ to offer "something for next to nothing" in this catagory of high-end studio condensers.
IMO, of course. the AKG 480 / ck61 is definitely the most transparent of the pack. And building off of RockPunk's test, AKGs just "jump out at you" w/any sort of percussion. That is why they are my favorite mic for band that are drum/perc heavy. WSP, prime example. nothing tapes Panic better than AKG.
It is possible that the AKG have more detail. I haven't used them enough. But for me there is something irritating about the sound. It sounds "edgy" or "scratchy" somehow in the upper mids. Things like tamborine, snare, and vocal simbalence (sp?) bother me somehow. Sort of like a distored DPA mic (ducks). But even the DPA I find are lacking something. "Clinical" or "not musical" is the common catchphrase. So, while Beyerdynamic may not have as much detail, it has a reasonable amount, it is not colored like the Neumann, and it just "sounds good" to my ears.
I've been thinking mics might be rated on at least three apsects: Color vs neutral, Detail, and Distortion. For me, I cannot tolerate any distortion at all. Of the other two, I would rather have an uncolored mic over a detailed mic.
This doesn't explain why I dislike DPA 4060 though. It seems to have all three, yet I just don't enjoy listening. Maybe there is a fourth quality, "Musical". A physicist once suggested that humans like distortion that has even harmonics, but dislike odd harmonics. So, maybe DPA have some odd harmonics in their (very low) distortion. Don't know how one would measure this though.
Richard
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Personally, I can't stand the sound of the 480/ck61.
Sometimes we need to quit thinking that more expensive means better.
this is why i love my 460/ck1 combo, i think it is much better than 480/ck61
unfortunately this is the mentality with most here.
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Personally, I can't stand the sound of the 480/ck61.
Sometimes we need to quit thinking that more expensive means better.
this is why i love my 460/ck1 combo, i think it is much better than 480/ck61
unfortunately this is the mentality with most here.
Kevin, your combo (460/ck1) I actually really like. For the same reason why I dislike the 480 ck61.
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Transformers really can make a big difference in a microphone's perceived sound attributes, which explains the differences people hear between 480s and JW mod 460s versus stock 460s. With stock 460s, lacking a direct galvanic connection to the power supply/preamp, the transfer of signal via magnetic field instead of by direct circuit brings the quality of "warmth" that is associated with transformers.
I have carefully listened to a bunch a JW mod 460 recordings over the years compared with stock 460s and 480s. There is definately a coloration difference between all 3. However, for my ears, the smooth mid range the transformers give in the stock 460s are missing from the transformerless JW mod 460s and the 480s. I asked Jim a few years ago about this and he said for close instrument mic'ing in a studio setting, he felt transformerless was the way to go due to the accuracy, but also said he could understand transformer benefits in field recording situations that we mostly operation in. He suggested that he could do the same mod he does now to upgrade the op amps and caps, and also replace the stock AKG transformer with a Jensen transformer with better performance.
Jim said none of his normal clients have ever asked for this, but he was willing to give it a shot for just a few bucks more than his standard upgrade. I got cold feet and never took him up on it.
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Transformers really can make a big difference in a microphone's perceived sound attributes, which explains the differences people hear between 480s and JW mod 460s versus stock 460s. With stock 460s, lacking a direct galvanic connection to the power supply/preamp, the transfer of signal via magnetic field instead of by direct circuit brings the quality of "warmth" that is associated with transformers.
I have carefully listened to a bunch a JW mod 460 recordings over the years compared with stock 460s and 480s. There is definately a coloration difference between all 3. However, for my ears, the smooth mid range the transformers give in the stock 460s are missing from the transformerless JW mod 460s and the 480s. I asked Jim a few years ago about this and he said for close instrument mic'ing in a studio setting, he felt transformerless was the way to go due to the accuracy, but also said he could understand transformer benefits in field recording situations that we mostly operation in. He suggested that he could do the same mod he does now to upgrade the op amps and caps, and also replace the stock AKG transformer with a Jensen transformer with better performance.
Jim said none of his normal clients have ever asked for this, but he was willing to give it a shot for just a few bucks more than his standard upgrade. I got cold feet and never took him up on it.
Damn, now that sounds like a great idea! I wonder how serious he would be about doing this?
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no shit !!
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Still have cold feat....maybe I could pick up a pair of used 460 bodies and have Jim try doing the transformer mod version, and if I don't like it, I still have my original stock bodies to fall back on.
Hmmmm.............this thread is making me think...............
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I'd much rather hear the transformer mod with Jensons than the transformerless mod that he currently does.
I'm completely unimpressed with the current JW mod for 460's.
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...with all these mods for improving AKG's, just curious/ has anyone ever modded Neumann's?
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...with all these mods for improving AKG's, just curious/ has anyone ever modded Neumann's?
How?
Klaus Heyne has certainly modded U87's in the past.
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Thanks for the info guys the help, i have a pair of 480B w/ 61 cap but i am looking for a brighter sound ?????[
might want to try the 63 caps, IMHO the reduced low end of the hypers makes them sound brighter than the cardioid cap.
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Which is better????
For live tapes I prefer the AKG Sound. But for Hats and drums I prefer the Neumann
Dont forget the peluso's either.
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...with all these mods for improving AKG's, just curious/ has anyone ever modded Neumann's?
Walt, Here is the list of the audio upgrades Jim Williams offers for mics, cut and pasted from his site.
MICROPHONES:
AKG 460,
AKG 535EB,
AKG 451/452EB,
AKG 414EB/P48,
AKG 414 TL & B-ULS
AKG THE TUBE,
AKG C12VR,
AKG C12,
AKG C34,
AKG C422 /426
B & K 4003,
NEUMANN U87,
NEUMANN U47,
NEUMANN U67,
NEUMANN KM81, 82, 84,
GEFELL UM70,
BEYER DYNAMIC 740,
MILAB / PML DC-96,
MILAB / PML DC-63,
MILAB VIP 50,
MILAB LC-25,
SHURE SM81,
SHURE SM57 UNADYNE III,
Full page: http://www.audioupgrades.com/pl1.html
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Why anyone would want to mod a KM84 is beyond me....
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Why anyone would want to mod a KM84 is beyond me....
Or an AKG C 12. WTF????
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just because a mic CAN be modded doesn't mean that it SHOULD be modded.
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I am with rokpunk. I don't think that performance modifications always mean "better".
When I talked to Jim Williams about the upgrades, he told me that 100% of the design considerations were based on controlled studio environments, for close mic'd instruments and vocals that would be directly recorded, the traditional standard application for these microphones. They were not even considering stage use either, just closed recording and broadcast studio applications in the upgrade designs.
He suggested that for ambient field recording, some of his upgrades would make the mics less effective for that application, and that was how the whole conversation started about keeping the 460s using transformers. In the end, I realized the simple fact that if I did not like the sound of my 460s, which I have liked as they are and used them continuously for 14 years, I would replace them with a different brand or type of microphone, not try and "fix" them with an "upgrade" that removes the "AKG sound".
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Folks should always keep in mind that "modded" does not necessarily mean "upgraded", but too often the words are used interchangeably (especially on this board).
What you are basically doing is paying a couple hundred dollars for the preferences of someone ELSE's ears. That may or may not be a good thing.
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i own alot of 460's....over a dozen. i use them on an almost daily basis for my work.
we had a pair modded by JW a few years ago and gave them a fair shot. we were less than impressed and sold them off to buy another pair of stock 460 bodies. some people like the sound of the 460 mod, some don't. perhaps for studio use it would have sounded fantastic....who knows. I chalked it up as a $350 learning experience.
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i own alot of 460's....over a dozen. i use them on an almost daily basis for my work.
we had a pair modded by JW a few years ago and gave them a fair shot. we were less than impressed and sold them off to buy another pair of stock 460 bodies. some people like the sound of the 460 mod, some don't. perhaps for studio use it would have sounded fantastic....who knows. I chalked it up as a $350 learning experience.
I agree the JW Mod tapes I have heard have had almost too much sizzle, a little grating for me. I am loving the stock 460's though.
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i heart transformers.
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All you guys are making me feel real good about my decision to go to 460s back in '94, and never finding anything I liked better, sticking with them. You guys are also making me feel that my initial impressions of the JW mod were not off base, and it's not just me that did not like the mod sound. I thought I was alone.
Don't get me wrong, I have tried to find reasons to change to something else, get a mod, etc., but I just cannot find a mic that I like the sound of as much as 460s, except other AKG mics. I have to confess I like B&Ks, clinical as they are, match them up with a Sonoxax and they really sing! Still, until DPA get's off their high horse and makes a modular system with hypers, they will still be a one-trick pony to me.
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order some a60 reducer rings from AKG and find some ck1 caps and give that a try. ;D it made me like my 460's even more. i got my 460's by chance and have yet to consider anything else. i wanted AKG and when i was ready the 460's were available (thanks Fozzy) and that is what i ended up with. glad they are what was there used when i was ready for something better.
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order some a60 reducer rings from AKG and find some ck1 caps and give that a try. ;D it made me like my 460's even more. i got my 460's by chance and have yet to consider anything else. i wanted AKG and when i was ready the 460's were available (thanks Fozzy) and that is what i ended up with. glad they are what was there used when i was ready for something better.
You know what, I started with C460B>A60>CK8 plus the CK61s in the beginning, used the guns about 7 times, got CK63s, and after hearing the hypers, the guns sat in a closet for the next 8 years collecting dust. I sold them and the reducer rings to a guy in DC for $400 and later wished I had kept the rings and just sold the CK8s. Oh well........
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fwiw, i ordered my rings from Richard Land at AKG in the last year and they are still available new at a better prices than i have seen used in the yard sale. i still love my ck63's. i cant complain too bad about my 451's with the ck1's. there is one room i run in that the 451 combo actually comes out better than the 460 combo.
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fwiw, i ordered my rings from Richard Land at AKG in the last year and they are still available new at a better prices than i have seen used in the yard sale.
Just curious...(I have an extra pair of rings I've flirted with selling)
How much did he charge per ring? Which version were they - the metal ones (a60m) in your sig. line?
i cant complain too bad about my 451's with the ck1's. there is one room i run in that the 451 combo actually comes out better than the 460 combo.
I agree completely; sometimes the 451 or 452/ck1 sounds better to me too...especially with boomier rooms. And, almost without exception, I prefer the 45_ series bodies over the 460 bodies when I'm using omni caps.
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fwiw, i ordered my rings from Richard Land at AKG in the last year and they are still available new at a better prices than i have seen used in the yard sale.
Just curious...(I have an extra pair of rings I've flirted with selling)
How much did he charge per ring? Which version were they - the metal ones (a60m) in your sig. line?
i cant complain too bad about my 451's with the ck1's. there is one room i run in that the 451 combo actually comes out better than the 460 combo.
I agree completely; sometimes the 451 or 452/ck1 sounds better to me too...especially with boomier rooms. And, almost without exception, I prefer the 45_ series bodies over the 460 bodies when I'm using omni caps.
i don't remember exactly but it was around 120 dollars for a set. they were the a60m
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i don't remember exactly but it was around 120 dollars for a set. they were the a60m
Thanks. That's not bad at all for new! I've seen used ones going for over $75 on ebay, including the a60p version.
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Thanks for the info guys the help, i have a pair of 480B w/ 61 cap but i am looking for a brighter sound ?????[
FWIW, I have never listened to a 480 tape and found it to be dull. Just a thought, if you find that your 480 recordings are not bright/detailed enough, have you considered your playback system? What are you listening on?
Peace,
Ben
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i don't remember exactly but it was around 120 dollars for a set. they were the a60m
Thanks. That's not bad at all for new! I've seen used ones going for over $75 on ebay, including the a60p version.
after more thought, i think they were 67 dollars each brand new. when i bought them i had seen some on ebay and here i think, go for 75 each and up.
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Aloha,
Sorry I'm not adding anything to this great mic comparison discussion. But all this talk about the 460/CK61 combo has me looking for another 460 body to put my new CK61 caps on. Anyone have a clue for a source?
I just close to use that 461 combo for close-miking acoustic instruments. Help!
Mahalo a nui,
alohachris
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Aloha,
Sorry I'm not adding anything to this great mic comparison discussion. But all this talk about the 460/CK61 combo has me looking for another 460 body to put my new CK61 caps on. Anyone have a clue for a source?
I just close to use that 461 combo for close-miking acoustic instruments. Help!
Mahalo a nui,
alohachris
460 bodies sell constantly on ebay, usually in singles
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Love my 480s, so versatile for so many situations, especially with all of the caps at your disposal. And although I don't run the 482s too often, I'll have to say that when I do and in the right situation, I way prefer the omnis to the cards/hypers. I actually find them to be really, REALLY different sounding, and not just because of the different pattern.