Topic: Mic Advice

[Church-Audio]

Thanks again Chris... I really don't dispute the quality or service you offer - and that has been amplified (sic) by the people I've been in contact with today who use your gear. What I still have a problem with is that having listened to several sample recordings today, I am honestly struggling to hear anything that makes me go 'woah-  mine wouldn't record like that' - I know, I know- unless you could put 2 versions of the same show side by side recorded on the same equipment and in the same position,  that's always going to be an issue. 

I do understand the 'value' in things- as a sales manager myself working for a company who aren't the cheapest at what we do, I'm forever selling on 'features and benefits' and on the service we offer to back our product up, but sometimes, all of my 'ammunition' just doesn't matter- like the guy who's cheap set of spanners  have outlasted the four sets of expensive ones I've sold him - I can prove to him that ours are technically superior, but the proof of the pudding is there every time I try and sell him on the idea of paying more for his spanners!!! Bringing that analogy back to topic- the $50 mics I've got work great with my battery box- I can record at the loudest shows without any distortion and get a well balanced recording with plenty of 'space' in it. Maybe I've got lucky, maybe I got the one really well matched pair of these, maybe it's all down to the scale of economics.

Don't get me wrong here Chris- I'm not ruling this out, but I hope you can see my point here. If this was a coat I was buying I could try it on to make sure it fit better than my current one - then there couldn't be any doubt- I can't do this in this case. One thought though- I assume you keep  records of people who've bought these from you? If so, have you sold any to anyone from around where I am located (Manchester/North West England- though I do regfularly fgo further afield for gigs)? If so, assuming they too are gig tapers, I could arrange to go to the same show as them to make a 'side by side' comparison.

In the end anyone can say that they make great mics but its the plain and simple fact that the mics you have are just not built the same way any of my products are never mind the sound quality issues. Since I have had the mics you own I can honestly say there is no comparison. People are comparing my mics to mics that cost several times more. Good luck with your quest. I have lots of customers in the UK with my mics but I dont keep track of the addresses... Never have a need to keep addresses for my records only amounts paid and destination country. Maybe you should send us a link of one of your recordings so others can hear your mics?

Chris

[inabsentia]

You'd need DIME for these but here's my most recent recordings

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=222239&hit=1

This one was a biggish venue (3,500) -sound quality poor for first three songs, clears up after that

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=222050&hit=1

Smaller room (300) with  high roof and good sound from the off

On the addresses thing, I wasn't inferring anything- just thought you might keep address for any after sales service, that was all

[rowjimmytour]

Thanks again Chris... I really don't dispute the quality or service you offer - and that has been amplified (sic) by the people I've been in contact with today who use your gear. What I still have a problem with is that having listened to several sample recordings today, I am honestly struggling to hear anything that makes me go 'woah-  mine wouldn't record like that' - I know, I know- unless you could put 2 versions of the same show side by side recorded on the same equipment and in the same position,  that's always going to be an issue. 

I do understand the 'value' in things- as a sales manager myself working for a company who aren't the cheapest at what we do, I'm forever selling on 'features and benefits' and on the service we offer to back our product up, but sometimes, all of my 'ammunition' just doesn't matter- like the guy who's cheap set of spanners  have outlasted the four sets of expensive ones I've sold him - I can prove to him that ours are technically superior, but the proof of the pudding is there every time I try and sell him on the idea of paying more for his spanners!!! Bringing that analogy back to topic- the $50 mics I've got work great with my battery box- I can record at the loudest shows without any distortion and get a well balanced recording with plenty of 'space' in it. Maybe I've got lucky, maybe I got the one really well matched pair of these, maybe it's all down to the scale of economics.

Don't get me wrong here Chris- I'm not ruling this out, but I hope you can see my point here. If this was a coat I was buying I could try it on to make sure it fit better than my current one - then there couldn't be any doubt- I can't do this in this case. One thought though- I assume you keep  records of people who've bought these from you? If so, have you sold any to anyone from around where I am located (Manchester/North West England- though I do regfularly fgo further afield for gigs)? If so, assuming they too are gig tapers, I could arrange to go to the same show as them to make a 'side by side' comparison.

The most important thing in taping is if you are happy w/ your recordings and this should be your biggest deciding factor to a upgrade. If the answer is yes then don't upgrade but if you still have any doubt and think you could do better. Then mics are the number one factor to getting a good recoding and CA and his products have been proven time after time here on ts as a lot of bang for your $$. 

[inabsentia]

The most important thing in taping is if you are happy w/ your recordings and this should be your biggest deciding factor to a upgrade. If the answer is yes then don't upgrade but if you still have any doubt and think you could do better. Then mics are the number one factor to getting a good recoding and CA and his products have been proven time after time here on ts as a lot of bang for your $$. 

Oh for sure..I think that goes with any 'upgrade' of  anything. 

When I started taping I went with a mic that would be great for spoken word but hardly ideal for music recording, then I found out about what a battery box would do for me- Each of those steps required a smaller financial output yet brought significant and tangible improvements in terms of sound quality, sound separation and eradicating 'brickwalling' - what concerns me from the examples I've found  of this potential upgrade, when recording in stealth mode at the kind of shows I go to, I wouldn't necessarily be getting that -that's why I need to really do a side by side test.

[fmaderjr]

Can't you just download a couple of shows done with Ca-11's or 14's from http://bt.etree.org/ and see what you think?

Believe me & everyone else here-you should hear a huge difference. I thought my first recordings with an $80 Sony ECM MS 907 sounded good until I stepped up to AT-853's.  Although I probably shouldn't admit it here, I can't always hear a big difference between CA-11 recordings and those made with high dollar mics, but I certainly can between CA-11 recordings and those made with cheap mics. I now have CA-14's also, but haven't had a chance to use them as yet.

[inabsentia]

Can't you just download a couple of shows done with Ca-11's or 14's from http://bt.etree.org/ and see what you think?

I have mate!!!..look back in the thread and you'll see I've mentioned I've done that, but surely it has to go deeper than that- From a link on the page Chris sent me to, I  downloaded a really nice semi - acoustic show recorded by someone who didn't have to stealth and that sounded fantastic, but that isn't the type of gig or the situation I'll be recording in, so it's not really a fair comparison.  I know a guy through DIME who goes to similar shows who has the 11's and the 14's  and he recorded the same band I did last weekend -albeit in a different venue - and while his recording is really nice, I wouldn't say it was any 'better' that the results I got.  I'm going to try and sort out a loan of one or other from him to try them for myself.. which I think is going to be the only real way to convince me!!

Listen folks... seriously..I' m really not just 'Trolling' here, thanks for all the replies and guidance so far

[Roving Sign]

The most important thing in taping is if you are happy w/ your recordings and this should be your biggest deciding factor to a upgrade. If the answer is yes then don't upgrade but if you still have any doubt and think you could do better. Then mics are the number one factor to getting a good recoding and CA and his products have been proven time after time here on ts as a lot of bang for your $$. 

Oh for sure..I think that goes with any 'upgrade' of  anything. 

When I started taping I went with a mic that would be great for spoken word but hardly ideal for music recording, then I found out about what a battery box would do for me- Each of those steps required a smaller financial output yet brought significant and tangible improvements in terms of sound quality, sound separation and eradicating 'brickwalling' - what concerns me from the examples I've found  of this potential upgrade, when recording in stealth mode at the kind of shows I go to, I wouldn't necessarily be getting that -that's why I need to really do a side by side test.

I listened to your samples - and you are getting good results with the mics you have...sounds like you know how to use gain properly and make a clear distortion-free recordings. You seem to operating from safe distances, nothing that's really going to test the mics too much.

So - I can understand that an upgrade is a "hard sell"

Get that loaner set and see for yourself...that way you'll be able to compare the build quality as well...

I think you'll find your Green Machine recordings to sound a bit "chirpy" and not as strong or musical in the bass...(although you current rig produced a lower note than I expected, in the sample)

I understand what you're going through - I never thought I'd give up my trusty Radio Shack Stereo mic...

Last advice - looking back, (as someone who has done this for 20 years) - I always regret not upgrading sooner!

[inabsentia]

I listened to your samples - and you are getting good results with the mics you have...sounds like you know how to use gain properly and make a clear distortion-free recordings. You seem to operating from safe distances, nothing that's really going to test the mics too much.

So - I can understand that an upgrade is a "hard sell"

Get that loaner set and see for yourself...that way you'll be able to compare the build quality as well...

I think you'll find your Green Machine recordings to sound a bit "chirpy" and not as strong or musical in the bass...(although you current rig produced a lower note than I expected, in the sample)

I understand what you're going through - I never thought I'd give up my trusty Radio Shack Stereo mic...

Last advice - looking back, (as someone who has done this for 20 years) - I always regret not upgrading sooner!

Cheers for that - the 'chirpy' thing could come from me recording in Hi-SP mode rather than WAV on the Hi-MD I was using up to last weekend (when both those recordings were made).  I could record the loudest of shows at maximum recording level and still have no distortion issues - in fact I'd still find I was boosting the volume when it came to mastering. 

I'm using a Zoom H2 now -in fact I've got a show tonight. I gave it a test run at gig on Thursday and was very impressed with the results considering I was playing around with the settings for most of the night!!  Tonight should be a good test- small club but one I've had decent recordings in , one all instrumental band, one with loud shouty vocals type band - I'll try post a sample or two tomorrow.

I've just heard back from the guy who has the CA11's and CA-14's and he's fine with me loaning his CA-11's - which is damn good of him as I only know him through sharing shows over on DIME!! If I get them in time for next weekend, I've got three days of gigs lined up so I can give them a real test!!

[fmaderjr]

Chirpy sound is not from using Hi-SP. Hi-SP sounds great-indistinguishable, for many people, from wave.

[Church-Audio]

I listened to your samples - and you are getting good results with the mics you have...sounds like you know how to use gain properly and make a clear distortion-free recordings. You seem to operating from safe distances, nothing that's really going to test the mics too much.

So - I can understand that an upgrade is a "hard sell"

Get that loaner set and see for yourself...that way you'll be able to compare the build quality as well...

I think you'll find your Green Machine recordings to sound a bit "chirpy" and not as strong or musical in the bass...(although you current rig produced a lower note than I expected, in the sample)

I understand what you're going through - I never thought I'd give up my trusty Radio Shack Stereo mic...

Last advice - looking back, (as someone who has done this for 20 years) - I always regret not upgrading sooner!

Cheers for that - the 'chirpy' thing could come from me recording in Hi-SP mode rather than WAV on the Hi-MD I was using up to last weekend (when both those recordings were made).  I could record the loudest of shows at maximum recording level and still have no distortion issues - in fact I'd still find I was boosting the volume when it came to mastering. 

I'm using a Zoom H2 now -in fact I've got a show tonight. I gave it a test run at gig on Thursday and was very impressed with the results considering I was playing around with the settings for most of the night!!  Tonight should be a good test- small club but one I've had decent recordings in , one all instrumental band, one with loud shouty vocals type band - I'll try post a sample or two tomorrow.

I've just heard back from the guy who has the CA11's and CA-14's and he's fine with me loaning his CA-11's - which is damn good of him as I only know him through sharing shows over on DIME!! If I get them in time for next weekend, I've got three days of gigs lined up so I can give them a real test!!

Remember the techniques needed to get good sounds with cardioid mics are different the the ones needed to get good sounds with your omni mics. With my cardioids you must point the mics at the sound source. And in order for this to be a fair test the mics signal chain should be the same two different recorders will not do because unless you have a way of acoustically calibrating the two mics so they read exactly the same level it will be difficult to evaluate the mics subjectively. Also I assume your mics are not matched from left to right. That also adds another dimension of issues to the comparison. Good luck let me know if you need any advice. I could not listen to your samples I am not a member of Dime. If you are a big fan of omni mics then these mics will be the best choice for you but they are expensive but they are also very VERY small they are called my CAFS mics.




Chris

[bobcat]

 damn man! it sounds like you are indecisive i am the same way too, these replies i hope lead you in the right direction. 

 for the most part if your using cheaper mics (sorry i forget what u are using) and you spend a bit more money then you will have something better.  you get what you pay for is true. not completely but it is regardless.

 then also it depends what sound you like, everyones different..and different speakers things sound different too.

 i must say using cardiods is probably the best choice. most omni shows i hear kinda blow unless you are really close to the stage. then u get an amazing sound.
 
 anyway u know all this so i'll stop.

[printguy]

I know I'm a bit late to the party but... Another thing to consider is what are you listening to the recordings on? Computer speakers, a high quality set of headphones, a true hi-fi system, etc? All of those will make a huge difference in how your current mics sound vs. another set.

When I started recording and editing I was using my iPod headphones and most shows sounded pretty much the same regardless of what gear was used. Then I upgraded my headphones to studio quality AKGs and the difference became instantly obvious.

But as a number of people have said - if you're happy with what you've got and the results you achieve that's all that matters.

[powermonkey]

Can't you just download a couple of shows done with Ca-11's or 14's from http://bt.etree.org/ and see what you think?

I have mate!!!..look back in the thread and you'll see I've mentioned I've done that, but surely it has to go deeper than that- From a link on the page Chris sent me to, I  downloaded a really nice semi - acoustic show recorded by someone who didn't have to stealth and that sounded fantastic, but that isn't the type of gig or the situation I'll be recording in, so it's not really a fair comparison.  I know a guy through DIME who goes to similar shows who has the 11's and the 14's  and he recorded the same band I did last weekend -albeit in a different venue - and while his recording is really nice, I wouldn't say it was any 'better' that the results I got.  I'm going to try and sort out a loan of one or other from him to try them for myself.. which I think is going to be the only real way to convince me!!

Listen folks... seriously..I' m really not just 'Trolling' here, thanks for all the replies and guidance so far

I've got a stealth recording with CA-11's that might be of interest to you as an example. Really proud of this one, and all I had to do was plug my CA11s into my R09HR and point my mics in the right direction.



http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WV38ZT1L

^^^ Ida Maria, London ULU, 2008-06-02. No eq, just bumped up the volume a touch and bob's yer uncle.

[stevetoney]

No offense inabsentia, but your thread responses are really quite silly. 

You asked if upgrading mics is worth spending the money over $29 mics.  Absolutely 100% of the people stated emphatically YES without a single dissenting opinion, then you debate them for two pages about why you don't seem to want to upgrade. 

It seems as if you really wanted to ask this forum for confirmation that your recordings are good enough...but you are the only one that can answer that question for yourself. 

You seem smart enough to realize that you're asking this question of a forum where some people have invested $10,000 in microphones.  I don't make this statement to intimidate you, but simply to state, 'what would you expect the answer to be when it's intuitively obvious that the audience for your question are experienced tapers.'

They gave you what you precisely asked for, but you don't seem want to accept this advice.  If that's the case, then why did you even ask?

[inabsentia]

No offense inabsentia, but your thread responses are really quite silly.

Now there's a start that really wants to make me listen to your opinion...

 

You asked if upgrading mics is worth spending the money over $29 mics.  Absolutely 100% of the people stated emphatically YES without a single dissenting opinion, then you debate them for two pages about why you don't seem to want to upgrade. 

It seems as if you really wanted to ask this forum for confirmation that your recordings are good enough...but you are the only one that can answer that question for yourself. 

Eh? How did you you come to that fantastic realisation?? It was only when someone suggested I post a link to one of my recordings that I went down that route

You seem smart enough to realize that you're asking this question of a forum where some people have invested $10,000 in microphones.  I don't make this statement to intimidate you, but simply to state, 'what would you expect the answer to be when it's intuitively obvious that the audience for your question are experienced tapers.'

They gave you what you precisely asked for, but you don't seem want to accept this advice.  If that's the case, then why did you even ask?

Lets see..Technical help>Microphones and set up... yes, yes I'm pretty sure I'm in the right place, or are you saying that unless I'm spending a quite stupid amount on microphones I've got no place here? Listen Bud, I've been taping for nearly 5 years with my old set up and I made my first recording back in 1975 so I'm not excactly new to this- ok? I was pretty happy with the way things were turning out I just simply wondered if I would get anything better by investing in a new set of the Church mics. The answers - like yours  - of 'of course you will' didn't back that up, neither did the samples I was being directed to or that I had come across myself Thanks to one of the members on here, I got a loaner set (If you'd read the thread you'd have seen that) to make my own mind up -and that really was the only way I could confirm it myself.