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Offline SonicSound

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microphone matching
« on: December 30, 2009, 04:56:02 PM »
I recently purchased a new "matched pair" of microphones and wanted to confirm if they are really matched.  According to the response curve / general data sheet, the mic's were measured as follows:

Mic "A": 21.6mV/Pa = 0dB
Mic "B": 21.3mV/Pa = 0dB

I am assuming this is the microphone sensitivity but what are realistic/acceptable delta values to consider microphones "matched"?

May the schooling begin…
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 05:09:33 PM »
I recently purchased a new "matched pair" of microphones and wanted to confirm if they are really matched.  According to the response curve / general data sheet, the mic's were measured as follows:

Mic "A": 21.6mV/Pa = 0dB
Mic "B": 21.3mV/Pa = 0dB

I am assuming this is the microphone sensitivity but what are realistic/acceptable delta values to consider microphones "matched"?

May the schooling begin…

I would say that .3 mV difference between two mics to be very VERY close. I think you also have to consider your signal chain and know that there is always going to be differences between left and right no matter how well your capsules are matched particularly in mic bodies and preamps. Even in preamps with detented gain knobs unless there is a way to do a fine adjustment Ch 1 and Ch 2 Could be way off.. So in the end response curves are important and so is relative sensitivity. You can go nuts trying to perfectly match a pair of mics.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 07:32:06 AM »
I agree with the other replies you've received so far. The difference in sensitivity is <1/8 dB, which is a closer match than you'd probably get if you bought two calibrated measurement microphones from the best manufacturer in the world.

Enjoy your luck while it lasts--these things drift over time.

The one caution I'd raise is that ~21 mV/Pa, while certainly not out of range, is about twice the sensitivity of many other studio condenser microphones. People around here--including me, even though I'm a classical guy--like to record things that GET LOUD sometimes, but many preamps and recorders (especially small, portable ones) are still designed for consumer-grade dynamic or electret microphones. Professional trappings such as balanced inputs with XLR connectors don't always mean that what's inside can handle professional microphone signal levels without distorting. Just be sure that any recorder/preamp you buy for use with these microphones can handle input signals of several hundred millivolts without clipping.

--best regards
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Offline SonicSound

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 05:23:48 PM »
Thanks all around!
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 05:28:22 PM »
I agree with the other replies you've received so far. The difference in sensitivity is <1/8 dB, which is a closer match than you'd probably get if you bought two calibrated measurement microphones from the best manufacturer in the world.

Enjoy your luck while it lasts--these things drift over time.

The one caution I'd raise is that ~21 mV/Pa, while certainly not out of range, is about twice the sensitivity of many other studio condenser microphones. People around here--including me, even though I'm a classical guy--like to record things that GET LOUD sometimes, but many preamps and recorders (especially small, portable ones) are still designed for consumer-grade dynamic or electret microphones. Professional trappings such as balanced inputs with XLR connectors don't always mean that what's inside can handle professional microphone signal levels without distorting. Just be sure that any recorder/preamp you buy for use with these microphones can handle input signals of several hundred millivolts without clipping.

--best regards
In many cases these "hot" microphones can be useful for recording directly into mini "flash" devices.  For example, I've had great luck running Beyerdynamic MC930 directly into mic in on the R09 (original model).  I power the mics with a (self-made) 18v phantom supply (18v through a 2k2 resistor).  This is a perfect match for the somewhat noisy front end of the Edirol.

  Richard
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 05:33:19 PM »
I agree with the other replies you've received so far. The difference in sensitivity is <1/8 dB, which is a closer match than you'd probably get if you bought two calibrated measurement microphones from the best manufacturer in the world.

Enjoy your luck while it lasts--these things drift over time.

The one caution I'd raise is that ~21 mV/Pa, while certainly not out of range, is about twice the sensitivity of many other studio condenser microphones. People around here--including me, even though I'm a classical guy--like to record things that GET LOUD sometimes, but many preamps and recorders (especially small, portable ones) are still designed for consumer-grade dynamic or electret microphones. Professional trappings such as balanced inputs with XLR connectors don't always mean that what's inside can handle professional microphone signal levels without distorting. Just be sure that any recorder/preamp you buy for use with these microphones can handle input signals of several hundred millivolts without clipping.

--best regards
Hey David, while I've got you "on the thread" may I ask how mics are mathced?

You have to match over a range of frequencies, right?

My "cheap and dirty" technique, for lav mics at least, is to put both mics side by side and record pink noise, approx 12" in front of a speaker.  Then I play back and look at the spectrum (the Waves plugin in Wavelab for example).

I've also heard of putting the capsules "head to head", with a bit of space in between so they phase cancel.  I think someone said Countryman demo their mics this way.

Anyway, what I've noticed is some mics are dead on (eg., Sanken COS11, DPA406x, Countryman B6).  Some others (eg, Countryman B3, Nevaton MCE400) sadly, vary quite widely.  They typically "cross over" somewhere in the middle, but typically one falls off faster at low or high frequencies.  I suspect this is dependent on manufacturing technique.  These are all mass produced devices in the lav market, right?

  Richard
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Offline DSatz

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 05:55:30 PM »
Richard, for one thing "matching" really means selection--no manufacturer (that I know of) trims or tweaks anything so that two microphones will come out better matched. Rather, the regular quality control procedure includes a precise measurement of sensitivity at 1 kHz and a frequency response curve across the audio spectrum, and capsules are then selected for the best (or a good enough) match from among the current production batch.

There's no agreed-upon or standardized definition for the maximum allowable deviation; that is up to each manufacturer. Some manufacturers' "selected pairs" may well have more difference between them than the random output of a more careful manufacturer, for all we may know.

One thing that's for sure is that the ads occasionally seen on eBay for "matched pairs" of vintage microphones are a total lie. For one thing the tolerance limits of even the best manufacturers were wider in the old days; for another, they didn't used to sell matched pairs of microphones (it's a relatively recent phenomenon) and finally, as I indicated earlier, microphone response drifts somewhat with age and use, so even a perfectly matched pair today may no longer qualify in a few years--let alone a generation or two later.

The midrange frequency response shouldn't be an issue; it'll normally be almost identical in all capsules of a given type. But the frequency extremes, and the high frequencies in particular, may need a closer look. The two flattest capsules may not also be the two closest-matching capsules; that's a matter of probability and statistics. And since at any given level of manufacturing quality the capsules generally have wider deviations than the amplifiers, as a rule it's the capsules that are selected.

--best regards
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 06:02:44 PM by DSatz »
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2010, 06:45:02 AM »
DSatz pretty much has said it. I will only add some small collected tidbits.

First of all, as already said, what the manufacturer does when "matching" mics is not defined anywhere.

I would guess that in some factories the junior janitor simply takes any two mics with consecutive serial numbers and calls them matched. He might of course check that they are the same model but you cannot really be sure about that. In this case matching does not really guarantee anything at all. But as you might expect some of these manufactures to buy the lowest price of components in batches, matching will probably improve the chance that the two mics at least use components from the same manufacturer which probably is a good thing.

In other instances the manufacturer claims that the tolerances are so small that any two mics coming out of the factory are matched. All others are discarded early on and never leaves the factory. Neumann claimed this for the small condensors for a long time, KM184 or KM140 beeing examples. Market pressure forced the US importer to put the mics together two and two and call them matched. Many years later, even the conservative Germans started putting them in boxes calling them matched. I am not at all sure that any real "matchning" is done for these mics.

In other instances there are stories of manufacturers that take lots of mics produced and carefully evaluates which two that not only measures closest but also sounds closest, not necessarily the same thing.

Others simply measure the sensitivity of the mics at one frequency and from the ones they have around select the two closest.

Bottom line is that you need to check what the manufacturer really means by "matching" mics. It most probably is a good thing, but how good is difficult to know.

My suggestion for checking your mics matching is to put them very close to each other on a stand in the middle of a large room. Now walk around the mics while recording in steroe. Talk all around the mic, whisper, jangle a set of keys (making high frequency sounds). If the stereo image wawers a lot your mics are not matched, if the sound stays square in the middle the mics are very well matched.

In my experience the best place to check if mics are matched is from the "back side", not from the front. This is where, to my experience at least, the difference is largest and easiest to hear.

// Gunnar

Offline DSatz

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2010, 01:37:17 PM »
Gunnar, the term "matched pair" is certainly open to abuse, and it actually is abused sometimes, particularly by sellers of used equipment. But for a serious manufacturer such as Neumann it isn't a casual matter or just a slogan to be thrown around without any meaning. I think that we benefit greatly from the attitude which certain manufacturers take toward their work, and I like to see that appreciated. Companies such as Neumann are still operating in a professional manner even though many of their customers nowadays aren't professionals. And when they say "matched," they actually mean something by it.

As far as I can tell, pair matching wasn't an explicit concern before the late 1950s when stereo recording became common. Before then the issue was the more general one of consistency in production, i.e. if you've used one U 47, do you then know what you can expect from another one? As Neumann began to produce stereo microphones starting with the SM 2 in 1957, they began to select the capsules for those microphones, since the entire basis of coincident stereo recording is a very close match between the microphone channels. This practice continued with their later stereo and quadrophonic microphones.

With the introduction of the K 67 capsule in 1960, Neumann's capsules themselves were now being built from halves which required selection and matching so that the synthesized omnidirectional and figure-8 patterns would come out correctly. (That had always been a problem in the U 47 and particularly the U 48.) And the multi-pattern KM 66, and later the KM 76 and 86, were made with a pair of cardioid capsule heads enclosed within a larger, screened enclosure, and those two internal capsule heads were specially selected as matched pairs. If you sent Neumann one of those microphones for repair and one of the capsules was defective, they would replace them both, and they would charge extra for their selection as a matched pair.

Similarly, by this time Neumann would provide selected, matched pairs of any of their microphones for an additional fee (or sometimes, I suspect, simply as a favor to an important client). They didn't publicize this, however; they have long been one of the manufacturers that claim their microphones to be so consistent that specially matched pairs aren't required. But very small shifts in the balance of a stereo recording can have a significant influence on how the sound is perceived, and I think that if they could economically produce their microphones within even narrower tolerance limits, they would be glad to do so.

Anyway in the late 1990s Neumann began to introduce factory-matched "stereo sets" of some models; if a match could involve consecutively-numbered microphones, that was done. Then the U.S. branch began to sell their own "stereo sets" of additional models in which the microphones weren't selected as matched pairs (something which only the factory could do) but which had consecutive serial numbers. The success of that program persuaded the company as a whole to start selling "stereo sets" of further models--and with the factory now involved, it became possible to provide both matched capsules and (quite often) consecutive serial numbers. So that is how things stand today.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 08:57:30 AM by DSatz »
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 01:47:12 PM »

Thanks for that info, DSatz.

I think some (most?) companies (DPA and Beyerdynamic, at least) also provide frequency response charts.  These are measured only at zero degrees incidence (ie., front of the microphone), but at least you can see visually how close the microphones are.  I also saw (on a DPA chart posted here) a difference plot for the mics.

It seems reasonable to get a matched pair, at least from the major manufacturers.

  Richard
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 01:59:09 PM by illconditioned »
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stevetoney

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 07:33:42 PM »
While I understand and respect all the input, I'd really like to hear what people have to say about why they feel that matching of capules is really worth my concern, or whether it's kind of a red herring subject.   

I've given this a bit of thought over the past couple years.  I guess what I've wondered is that, if preamp bodies of a mic pair aren't similarly matched, and I've never specifically heard that preamp channels are always precisely matched, not to mention the other devices in the chain such as the ADC, then why should we be concerned if a capsule pair is or isn't matched? 

Not only this, but as Chris Church pointed out earlier in this thread, we twist/turn/tweak away on the knobs of each channel separately anyway, in effect un-matching the channel response to a specific sound source, so what difference does a couple of db make if the capsules aren't matched precisely? 

Finally, with the great dynamic range offered by enhancements in recording technology (24bit word length), it seems to me that perhaps there's no real need to have to squeeze every single db out of a microphone/preamp/ADC signal chain in order to get the hottest/best sound possible, like some might have wanted to in the days of 16bit recording.

I'm not suggesting that capsule matching isn't a worthwhile service being offered by manufacturers (especially when clients are asking for and willing to pay a premium for matching), but I've had the above thoughts for awhile and I'd really like to hear input from people about why they feel that capsule matching is worth our concern, in light of the above factors.


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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 08:48:17 PM »
I don't think it has anything at all to do with use or abuse of dynamic range, it's about integrity of a stereo image.  It's true that variations in preamps can cause an issue (slanting of the stereo image to one side or the other), but preamps aren't subject to the same sort of variation in frequency response that transducers are.  Thus, even if you cannot calibrate your preamps, if you have a closely matched pair of microphones you can use the microphones to calibrate the recorded stereo channels in post-production (it helps to generate a dead center test tone at the start of the session, but it can be done through analysis as well).

I am guilty as any at the preamp problem, given that I produce a preamp with independent channel pots.  Even so, visual matching of the gain setting results in a 0.3dB tolerance, not too bad I don't think.

Yeah, I understand about the dynamic range portion of your response.  When crafting my question, I was going through a mental checklist of all the reasons, perhaps, of why channel matching might have validity.  So, let's scratch preservation of dynamic range from the discussion.

OK, your response makes sense and I also see how matching the frequency responses to get two capsules with graphs that parallel each other will help to keep the stereo imaging consistent for all frequencies.  (In my earlier response, I was focused on the mic sensitivity aspect of matching and not the frequency response aspect.)

Question:  Can the stereo imaging change alot from DFC calibration between unmatched vs. matched capsules such that there would be very obvious changes in imaging? 

I ask this with consideration of the idea that I'm not sure that I would care that much if my audio image put, say, a kick drum in the absolute center of my soundfield versus ever-so-slightly shaded to one or the other side in the image.

Having said this and somewhat answering my own question, I suppose the issue in matching is getting accurate reproduction of the stereo image, so whether the stereo image shifts a little one way or the other in the soundfield due to un-matching, the point is that matching would tend to eliminate that from happening. 

Offline ghellquist

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 05:59:50 AM »
Same sounding mics in the two stereo channels is indeed one of the aspects that help to create a good and stable stereo image. It makes much more sense when you record acoustic instruments -- recording sound from a PA is already artificial.

What you can experience when recording acoustic instruments with mics that differ too much is that the position of the instrument may wander in the stereo position depending on what tones it plays. A low tone on the cello might come from center while higher tones (in frequency that is ) might come more and more from the right. So in my mind, if you plan on hiring the London Symphony orchestra for a session then you should use well matched mics, if nothing else because the extra cost incurred is tiny compared to the session cost.

You can actually try this yourself very easily by using two different mics in a stereo recording. I once had to resolve to using a cardioid on one channel and an omni on the other, and the result did come out useable.

As has been said ( as always DSatz has a lot of background info ) , high end mic manufacturers do make mics that are generally good enough without any extra selection steps such as matching. When you ask them to do it they will do a respectable job of matching your pair.

So the interesting effect is that when you stay with these top end manufacturers there is not really any need for a normal user to order matched sets, but they actually do a good job when selecting the mics for you.

On the low end of things, you can never be sure. Have you ever really understood what the low-price manufacturers does when they sell you a "matched set" of mics. Select consecutive numbers or anything more? And yet, these mics are where things really differ so here is where matching really would make a difference. I know that in older days, as an example, the Octave mics from Russia often needed to be matched, and importers in many countries did this as a service. Quality has gone up in Russia so the selection is less needed now.

The large difference is bound to be in capsules. Making capsules is still a bit of "art" as they are mechanical things that all differ. The electronics is in that respect easier - use low tolarance high quality components and they all pretty much comes out the same. The problem though is that low priced manufactures has to use low-quality, high tolerance components so even there they might differ a lot.

Bottom line:
 - buying high quality mics : they are good enough, no matching needed but the factory does a high quality job in selecting pairs. My suggestion is that if you plan to buy the likes of Schoeps, Neumann, Sennheiser, DPA, Microtech Gefell ( non-exhaustive list ... ) then pay the small premium for a matched set.
 - buying low price mics : they can differ a lot but what the factory does to match is a mystery so if they are matched in sound is anybodies guess. So my suggestion is not to pay anything extra for matching.

// Gunnar

Offline SparkE!

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2010, 12:57:59 PM »
I've got to agree with Gunnar's "bottom line" conclusions on this, but I'd like to add a bit of my own opinion as to why those are the correct conclusions.  Unfortunately, we tend to find explanations for our observations that may fit those observations, but are nonetheless based on junk science.  We humans like to be able to explain everything we encounter, even if we don't fully understand what's going on.  That's not to say that our badly founded explanations are not worthwhile.  Usually there is a strong correlation between our explanations and our observations.

That being said, I agree with DSatz that the concept of matching mics became important when stereo recording became more common.  The easiest thing to match is sensitivity, and that is usually done by measurements at the single frequency of 1 kHz. That is usually a reasonable surrogate for matching the amplitude response at all frequencies. What's ironic is that amplitude plays a relatively minor role in how we hear stereo images.  It is actually differences in the time of arrival of audio signals between the two stereo channels that most strongly affects the stereo imaging.  So insisting that the phase response is consistent from mic to mic is actually more important than matching the amplitude response.  Fortunately, the phase response of mics generally doesn't change significantly from one mic to another mic of the same design.  So in a weird way, it actually is amplitude response that is important.  Phase response kind of takes care of itself without matching.

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stevetoney

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 04:42:14 PM »
^ Not only that, but most people on this list are hobbyists recording in settings where very few of the variables leading to the end result can be controlled.  In those settings, I can't see where a matched capsule pair would ever need to be a requirement.  Granted, all things being equal, it would be nice to have a matched pair though.

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2010, 07:03:41 PM »
DSatz pretty much has said it. I will only add some small collected tidbits.

First of all, as already said, what the manufacturer does when "matching" mics is not defined anywhere.

Agreed, I noticed on my ck930s that they are matched as a pair of specific cap and specific body against another specific cap and specific body. Now, do I run them that way in the field? Probably not (I have a 50/50 chance), but it's stated on the plots I have that the following pair result in the following data that was used for evaluation.

Unfortunately, we tend to find explanations for our observations that may fit those observations, but are nonetheless based on junk science.  We humans like to be able to explain everything we encounter, even if we don't fully understand what's going on.  That's not to say that our badly founded explanations are not worthwhile.  Usually there is a strong correlation between our explanations and our observations.

That is an awesome articulation on the subject of fear of the unknown as it pertains to reasoning. I've thought about this in the back of my mind for years now when doing any type of research (academic or otherwise).
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Offline DSatz

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2010, 07:08:10 PM »
tonedeaf, I wouldn't call ultra-precise matching a requirement by any means, but it is certainly an advantage for stereo recording with coincident or closely spaced main microphones.

By the way, when I mentioned earlier that the more serious manufacturers would prefer if they could make microphones with even greater consistency than they do now, there is also an interesting contrary viewpoint which I've come across, especially among aficionados of "vintage" microphones. As you may know, there are people who practically worship certain older designs such as the Neumann U 47, M 49 and M 50, KM 54 and U 67, the Schoeps M 221 B, and the AKG C 12 and Telefunken Ela M 250 and 251.

But for each engineer or producer who swears up and down that no microphone made today is in the same league as these classics, you will usually find that they own one or a few of these microphones which they have particularly become fond of, and it's only those particular examples that they mean. As a thought experiment, if I could bring together, say, the twelve or fifteen most outspoken devotees of these microphones and have them put all their individual microphones on a table, then if I scrambled up whose microphone was whose and returned them, those people would probably hang me from the nearest lamppost in short order.

What this comes down to is that if someone is looking for a particular sound quality which is not exactly the "center line" of the microphone's tolerance field, then if production tolerances are wider, that person has a greater likelihood of finding a microphone they really like than if all the microphones of that type sound the same.

It also implies what I think is the truth in this case: If companies such as Neumann or AKG could re-issue the old microphones exactly as they were made in the past (something which some people loudly and insistently demand), many of the most ardent fans of vintage microphones would dislike the result--because what they really like isn't the sound quality which that type of microphone was originally intended to have, and (on average) did have; instead, they like an individually altered version of that sound quality which happens to have come about due to the more or less random circumstances of component tolerances and aging in the particular instance(s) of their own favorite microphone(s).

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 07:11:33 PM by DSatz »
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Offline ero3030

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2010, 09:54:29 AM »
sounds alittle like vintage wine/new bottle off the shelf!?   ed
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2010, 12:51:55 PM »
Great discussion. I'm primarily posting to follow the thread.  As for the vintage mic craze, DSatz's last post soundly reinforced my personal thoughts.  I've never seen it stated so clearly:

(snip) But for each engineer or producer who swears up and down that no microphone made today is in the same league as these classics, you will usually find that they own one or a few of these microphones which they have particularly become fond of, and it's only those particular examples that they mean. (snip)

Question: how useful is the basic home matching method which Richard outlined (ie- recording pink noise and visually comparing the frequency spectra) in determining how well mics are matched, or perhaps more importantly, in determining if the response of the capsules have drifted from each other over time?  Is it worth putting some time, thought and discussion into how to best perform a test or might I just end up playing mind games and fooling myself? Would I be better off forgetting about trying to determine the deviation of frequency match between mics myself and instead find a lab to do it for me? Any idea what a ball-park cost to do that might be?

I have an older Gefell pair which seem off.  I also have four DPA miniature omnis which I use for surround recording that should be pretty close to each other.  I bought one pair new and paid a bit more to have the two matched by the US distributor. That pair has remained very closely matched to my ears. I've become suspect of one mic of the second pair which I bought second hand.  I'm not concerned with overall average sensitivity which is simple enought to correct for (as long as the sensitivity difference is linear across differing dynamics), but differences in frequency response.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2010, 01:21:25 PM »
I almost hate to go there because there might be some waffling, but there has been alot of discussion about manufacturers that do a good job with quality control and how that affects matching and those that don't do such a great job.  A logical follow-on would be, is it fair to ask which manufacturers fall in which category, or can we simply use price point as a good indicator of the answer to that question?

Answering in part, it seems that this thread has already ascertained Schoeps, Neumann, Senn, DPA, and MG, as high quality manufacturers that use tighter tolerances on what they'll allow to leave the mothership.

What about some of the others; AKG, Peluso, Josephson, Shure, Milab, Audio Technica, and so on?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 01:24:20 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline illconditioned

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2010, 01:39:03 PM »
Question: how useful is the basic home matching method which Richard outlined (ie- recording pink noise and visually comparing the frequency spectra) in determining how well mics are matched, or perhaps more importantly, in determining if the response of the capsules have drifted from each other over time?  Is it worth putting some time, thought and discussion into how to best perform a test or might I just end up playing mind games and fooling myself? Would I be better off forgetting about trying to determine the deviation of frequency match between mics myself and instead find a lab to do it for me? Any idea what a ball-park cost to do that might be?

I have an older Gefell pair which seem off.  I also have four DPA miniature omnis which I use for surround recording that should be pretty close to each other.  I bought one pair new and paid a bit more to have the two matched by the US distributor. That pair has remained very closely matched to my ears. I've become suspect of one mic of the second pair which I bought second hand.  I'm not concerned with overall average sensitivity which is simple enought to correct for (as long as the sensitivity difference is linear across differing dynamics), but differences in frequency response.

For small omni mics (lav mics), this is a good sanity check.  Certainly for newly purchaced mics, you can get a quick sanity check.  I wouldn't trust anything until I test it, especially used mics.

As for bigger mics I think the problem is harder.  I have tried putting the mics in the same place in the room and recording the same (pink) noise pattern for each mic.  But this is more tricky (to line them up).  Not to mention, you're only measuring incident, not off-axis, performance.

Comments?  I'm willing to bet that some micbuilders/vendors use this method, as a sanity check, or to check a batch for defective capsules.  Though they may not disclose their "secrets".

  Richard
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 01:40:57 PM by illconditioned »
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2010, 03:47:15 PM »
It's very effective if you have a good tool to analyze the resulting recording.  Although you won't know about past capsule drift unless you have an earlier calibration.

Cross-Spectrum Labs does basic testing for a low price:

http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measurement/services.html

Thanks, I'll check that link..

What would qualify as a good analysis tool?
Can I simply open an RTA frequency analysis window in Samplitude- probably with a very long time average, wait for the oscillation in the displayed curve to settle and take a screen shot of each mic's average curve for comparison?

How about using something the Room EQ Wizard java application (freeware), which probably provides the ability to save and compare response curves and even calculate the difference between curves? [Hmm, i thought we could indent without making a list.. oh well here is the overview blurb]-
  • Room EQ Wizard is a Java application for measuring room responses and correcting modal resonances. It includes tools for generating test signals; measuring SPL; measuring frequency and impulse responses; generating spectral decay plots, waterfalls and energy-time curves; generating real time analyzer (RTA) plots; calculating reverberation times; displaying equalizer responses and automatically adjusting the settings of parametric equalizers to counter the effects of room modes.

Talking that line of thought one step farther.. Could I then use the measurement of a known-good mic as a reference, figure the difference between that measurement curve and the subsequent measurement curve of an off-specification mic, invert the difference and apply that curve as a corrective eq band-aid for the 'problem mic' which I could apply after I've made a recording?

Isn't that partially what the corrective portion of the software for Len's Ambisonic 'Tetramic' does, allowing Core to use less expensive capsules and furnishing 'correction files' which are specific to each mic?  In that case there is no burden in applying those response corrections since the 'A-format' signal needs to be matrixed in the software before it is useful anyway.  I'd imagine that any tetrahedral, near-as-possible-to-coincident 4-capsule design would be more demanding in terms of mic matching than most any other application. 

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2010, 06:41:51 PM »
You nailed it.  I basically want to get an idea of how well matched my four identical mics are, and use that information to EQ the deviants in a broad sense back to usefullness- or perhaps just help me to varify and accept that I may just need to replace a couple of them.  I don't use Wavelab, but I'll check the FFT in Samp for looking at this.  I have a good grasp on the general test rigor required of keeping everything unchanged except for the single variable of the mic capsule under test.  When I get some free time I'll give it a try. 

As it is, I currently EQ the playback channel with the one suspect mic by ear to achieve a similarity of tone with the others when I'm using them all in a single array.  I agree completely on the slippery slope of attempting fine granular corrections like the impulse response manipulation.  The room correction stuff is most interesting to me for analysis of the bottom-most few octaves.  I'd think attempted correction of high-Q variations in mics would create problems similar to those found in agressive electronic room correction- loosing the view of the forest for the trees.  I'm not going that route either, but it is interesting to think about.  It may be that electronic correction of small omnis to an appropriately smoothed curve might be practical, but again I mostly want a general picture as an 'EQ-ing guide'.

Fortunately I'm not looking to duplicate the sound of a completely different mic, just one that differs from it's siblings, and to make that correction in a broad, low-Q tonal sense. Both the off and on-axis response of the suspect mic will be adjusted by the same amount and appropriately so since the models are identical, small and about as omnidirectional as achievable in the audible range. 

As for my Geffells, I'd just like to test them to see where they stand before I send them both in to a pro for a checkup and re-work.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2010, 08:26:01 AM »
Hey Gut and MSHil...what language are you speaking in?  I'd like to use a translator to try to understand your discussion!  So far, nothing comes up for the word 'anechoic'.  LOL!  ;D

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2010, 05:41:18 PM »
Those fancy terms make it easier to get the meaning across without writing so much. 

I’ll try to explain a bit on what’s behind what we’re talking about and explain what anechoic is-

One part of measuring the microphone response is the physical measuring part, which includes: Choosing and producing a sound picked up by the mic (that's called the test signal); Placing the mic in front of the sound source that produces that signal (a speaker); The environment in which the source and mic are located and the measurement is made.  Each of those things effect the measurement.  Consider the last one.

Since the microphone and sound source are in some kind of room or enclosure, the microphone will pick up all the sound that bounces around that space, not just the direct sound from the source.  You end up measuring not just the microphone, but the combination of the microphone, the speaker that produced the sound, and the reflections from the room that the sound bounced around in.  Of those three things, the microphone often has the most neutral response, which means that what you're trying to measure is buried beneath a lot of extra information. 

One way to eliminate some of that extra information and clarify things would be to eliminate the room itself.  A perfectly anechoic room allows no outside noise in, and produces no reflections from sounds produced inside it.  All sound produced inside is absorbed completely with no reflections or echoes: an-echoic.  Those rooms are absolutely unnatural to be in (i've been told) and very, very expensive to build so only governments, universities, test facilities and big audio companies typically have them.  Even then, they are not perfectly anechoic to the very lowest frequencies, just good enough for most uses. 

Since we don’t have a real anechoic room, we do other things eliminate the influence of the room on the measurement.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2010, 06:40:15 PM »
there is an anechoic room up in Boston, at MIT I think. If I remember correctly, if you go by and it's a slow day (and you ask nicely), they will let you sit in it for a few minutes. It's been on my list of things to do for a while now.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2010, 12:09:59 AM »
Cool.  I wonder if it begins to sound like screaming ear ringing in there after a while, or not.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2010, 09:25:40 PM »
My dad worked for a manufacturer of audible signals, and they had an anechoic chamber for testing and tuning purposes. When I was a kid, I got to check it out a few times... it was downright weird. If you have tinnitus (and I've always had a bit) it becomes very noticeable.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2010, 11:54:34 AM »
After about 5 or 10 minutes in an anechoic chamber, I begin to hear the blood moving in my veins.  It's weird hearing your blood moving in your arms and neck.  It's also weird hearing the movements of your internal organs.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 12:04:33 PM »
After about 5 or 10 minutes in an anechoic chamber, I begin to hear the blood moving in my veins.  It's weird hearing your blood moving in your arms and neck.  It's also weird hearing the movements of your internal organs.
^
Wow - I have had tinnitus since I was a kid so I'm guessing that it would be pretty horrible for me...

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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2010, 01:19:22 PM »
Tinnitus is an issue for me too, though mine's not terrible.  I find that it doesn't get louder for me in the anechoic chamber.  I just start to hear the quieter sounds.

Actually, the anechoic chamber I've used was designed for low level rf and microwave testing where you need to be isolated from other signal sources.  It was designed as more of an electromagnetic isolation chamber than it was an acoustic anechoic chamber, but as it turns out, the microwave absorber material on the walls of the chamber also happen to be a very good acoustic absorber as well.

The first time I spent time in the chamber, I began to hear my blood moving in my veins and I kind of panicked, leaving the chamber quickly.  I couldn't believe how "loud" it was when I came out of the chamber and back into the normal electronics lab environment.  One of my coworkers, seeing me coming through the door of the chamber, kind of laughed and asked me if it was too quiet in there. He'd been there before and knew immediately what had just happened to me.
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 02:09:48 PM »
It's not only the general quiet in a well-isolated room that gets to you--though most of us are accustomed to having noise all around us, and it can surely be a shock to realize the extent of that, when one is temporarily "deprived" of it. But dead quiet is still within the range of normal experience. Most of us have "heard" it in everyday acoustical settings many times before.

The lack of any significant reverberation, on the other hand, is a much less common experience. If you've spent time in a desert or in deep snow when there is no wind, you get some part of it but if you make a sound in an anechoic chamber, the room tells you essentially nothing at all about itself. That's disorienting--we're used to a constant stream of auditory "feedback" about our surroundings.

If you bring a musical instrument into an anechoic room and play it, the effect can be devastating if you weren't expecting it--suddenly it feels as if there's just no point to anything, it all sounds so awful. The useful lesson in that is to realize how greatly the subjective experience of music depends on reverberant space of some kind.

The same is true of recording, and the experience of being in an anechoic chamber can help a person realize how broken the concept is of "aiming" a microphone at a sound source in a normal room. Even a directional microphone is something that you immerse in a complex field of sound energies coming from all directions at once. That's also why the off-axis response of a microphone is every bit as important as its on-axis response; only in an anechoic room is that not the case.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:14:58 PM by DSatz »
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Re: microphone matching
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 04:09:40 PM »
Kind of off the OP's topic but since it's being talked about - here's a link to the anechoic chamber at Meyer Sound Labs. The article is titled "Grateful for a Dead Room"

http://www.meyersound.com/products/technology/chamber.htm



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