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Author Topic: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)  (Read 24660 times)

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2011, 08:03:41 PM »
^^^ Nice description.

Some additional points: 1) This is not for those who prefer non-coincident methods (spaced, or near coincident).  This is a personal decision, but I prefer to get stereo information from both intensity and phase information, hence the desire for non-coincident mics.  2) The quality of the recording depends on the capsules.  So, if you love the sound of Sheops or whatever, you may not be satisified with the capsules used in the Soundfield mic.

Questions: What are the "first order" patterns?  For example, can I get a highly directional pattern oriented in any direction or is it limited to hyper-sub- cardioid through figure-8 shapes?  How much actual distortion of the patterns do I get due to non-coincident placement of the capsules?

In my opinion these mics are probably best suited to ambient recording or film work.  Places where you may want to adjust the pattern in postprocessing.  Even then, a good sound guy with a shotgun mic may outperform them anyway.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2011, 10:39:46 PM »
^^^ Nice description.

Some additional points: 1) This is not for those who prefer non-coincident methods (spaced, or near coincident).  This is a personal decision, but I prefer to get stereo information from both intensity and phase information, hence the desire for non-coincident mics.  2) The quality of the recording depends on the capsules.  So, if you love the sound of Sheops or whatever, you may not be satisified with the capsules used in the Soundfield mic.

Thanks.  You're absolutely right about these being coincident only, but of course if you have the channels it can be combined with other mics.  I like to run spaced omnis with it, partly for my own comparison, partly because I also have favored the open, atmospheric 'sound' of spaced mics, and partly for the ability to play with combining the sources or routing them to different channels for surround at some point.

Yes, the ultimate quality of the recording depends on the capsules, but this is a slightly different and unusual case compared to most microphones.  In this case the quality of the capsules determines an upper limit to the capabilities of the mic, especially in noise level, clipping level, and distortion, and also in the hard to quantify subjective measures, but at least for the Tetramic, the unique measurement and post correction process that is specific to each individual capsule in each specific microphone, attempts to optimize the performance and minimize variations between capsules within that ultimate envelope of capsule potential. In doing so the system somewhat compensates for production variations and for general response irregularities of the specific capsules used. 

The system corrects for response irregularities which vary from the ideal response in a way somewhat analogous to playback 'room correction' devices that measure the response of a speaker, then create inverse filters that correct for phase and eq response irregularities in the sweet spot.  It can only correct so much though, within the ultimate limits of the capsule and the S/N ratio of the system, and can't correct for some things at all such as the dynamic range limits. Actually the Tetramic corrective system has a somewhat easier job to do than playback 'room correction' devices, because it is simply correcting and matching the anechoic on-axis response of each capsule.  Speaker/room correction devices correct for the sweet spot while sacrificing the response elsewhere in the room and people like to move around.

I don't have any first hand experience with speaker/room correction devices, but I did get to demo a room/stereo/surround virtualization technique for headphone monitoring a few years ago that actually makes for a far better analogy here, not only because you can't move out of the haedphone sweet spot.. I’ve posted about it here elsewhere, but briefly, it was also was a measurement based correction system that required calibration to be useful.  Calibration was done by placing miniature omni microphones in each ear canal and running sweep tones though all the various speakers in turn for a few different head rotation positions.  The response of the headphones coupled with my ears was also measured.  The dataset for that combined speaker/room/head-rotation/individual-ear-response and headphone/ear-response data was collected, manipulated and then convolved with whatever audio program I cared to hear.  The result was incredible- my brain was completely convinced that I was hearing actual speakers in the original room, even though I was listening through headphones.  Of course the ability of the system to make those corrections was ultimately constrained by reproduction limits of the headphones.  The system I tested used entry level Stax headphones and amp which the developer considered more than sufficient in response (combined with a seat shaking device).  The point I’m belaboring is that music through this sounded nothing like the Stax phones themselves. It sounded instead like the speakers and room where the measurements were made… as long as the phones were ‘good enough’.

The question then becomes, “what headphone (or what microphone capsule) is good enough to support the correction requirements?”, rather than, “what is the particular sonic signature of this headphone or microphone capsule and do I like it?”

The Tetramic is designed to a price point and the specifications of the capsule used constrains the system, but unlike standard mics, the system attempts to remove the unique sonic signature of the capsules themselves.

Quote
Questions: What are the "first order" patterns?  For example, can I get a highly directional pattern oriented in any direction or is it limited to hyper-sub- cardioid through figure-8 shapes?  How much actual distortion of the patterns do I get due to non-coincident placement of the capsules?

All 1st order patterns can be described as the sum of an omni and figure-eight response mixed with various levels: that means any pattern along the continuum from omnidirectinal, subcardioid, cardioid, hypercardioid and figure-8.  The theory relies on all the capsules being perfectly coincident.  The virtual patterns tend to be far more accurate than most all standard microphones at low and mid frequencies, but start to breakdown at high frequencies and get very odd shaped as the wavelengths of the frequency in question approaches the capsule spacing.  There are mathematical techniques that attempt to correct for the effects of the capsule spacing, but closer is better.  Luckily the capsules are typically close enough to push irregularities above about 10kHz or so (I think) into the region where the brain is less critical about imaging.

Quote
In my opinion these mics are probably best suited to ambient recording or film work.  Places where you may want to adjust the pattern in post-processing.  Even then, a good sound guy with a shotgun mic may outperform them anyway.
 

Yes, film/TV dialog guys will continue to use shotguns on booms. ‘Shotgun’ interference mics are a different animal that have greater directionality at mid and high frequencies than any 1st order pattern. I’d guess many ambient guys want the open, ambient sound of spaced techniques for many things, but I know film sound guys collect location sounds and effects with Soundfields.

However, the post-processing pattern adjustment is what makes these things particularly attractive for the type of recording we do where we must set-up quickly, often in less than ideal situations, with limited ability to monitor and re-adjust things before recording.

If a coincident technique is appropriate, an ambisonic mic leaves the most options open.
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Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2011, 12:47:48 PM »
If you take the average multipattern LD, they have the 2 diaphragms which adjust pattern by voltage to come up with a single output.  I noticed some new mic (at least new to my radar) recently which had the 2 diaphragms putting out 2 outputs, so you could decide in post if you want omni - card - figure 8 based on how you decide to sum them.  I thought " that's a great idea, why isn't that more common?!!"   I think that was either Senn or AT, but at any rate a pair of them was above my budget.  It shouldn't be that difficult I wouldn't think... double the electronics in the mic, but I would think someone like Busman could put out a 4 channel LSD2 sized mic with crossed double capsules at a reasonable price.  Probably it's not that simple in practice.

I also have 4 similar AT853's that I keep intending to make a mount with 4 coincident stacked caps at 90 degrees.  I obviously don't have the capsule correction curves, and the fancy plugins but it might be interesting none the less.... especially for those bluegrass bands that like to huddle around 1 mic.   When I mix mid/side in post, I don't use plugins... I duplicate and flip wave files and play with it that way, so I'm comfortable doing it "manually", and I think the same technique could apply to my "poor man's quadramic".
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »
If you take the average multipattern LD, they have the 2 diaphragms which adjust pattern by voltage to come up with a single output...

Not a new idea, and not anymore complex internally than a typical single output, multipattern dual diaphram mic (actually simpler since there is no pattern switch and matrixing circuitry).  It does require two preamp channels and matrixing of the two channels to generate patterns other than cardioid.  There are a number of manufacturers that currently make microphones of this type including Sennheiser, Milab or Pearl (I'd have to check which), Josephson, Sanken (I think), among others.

Neumann made a four channel LD quadraphonic mic in the 70's that had four individual capsules arranged at right angles and four discrete outputs.

Quote
I also have 4 similar AT853's that I keep intending to make a mount with 4 coincident stacked caps at 90 degrees... I think the same technique could apply to my "poor man's quadramic".

I know some mic DIY types have built their own mics like you mention.  You might do a serach to find out more about that.  That arrangement would be somewhat similar to the Schoeps double M/S approach in using individual compact mics to form a horizontal only, 2-dimentional array.  One difference between those horizontal layouts and ambisonic style mics is that the ambisonic mics have their capsules mounted 3-dimentionally- one on each face of a regular tetrahedron.  In that way, the capsules point up and down as well as front back and sideways so that they record height information as well, allowing the virtual mic patterns to be pointed up and down (and rotated or rolled around any horizontal axis) as well as turned right and left.  That's where the Tetramic gets it's name.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline John Willett

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2011, 07:00:35 AM »
If you take the average multipattern LD, they have the 2 diaphragms which adjust pattern by voltage to come up with a single output.  I noticed some new mic (at least new to my radar) recently which had the 2 diaphragms putting out 2 outputs, so you could decide in post if you want omni - card - figure 8 based on how you decide to sum them.  I thought " that's a great idea, why isn't that more common?!!"   I think that was either Senn or AT, but at any rate a pair of them was above my budget.

It was the Sennheiser MKH 800 TWIN and it's available in Nickel or Nextel.



With one of these and a fig.8 you can do 5.0 surround with just three capsules.  :D


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2011, 10:55:20 AM »
Thanks John, that's the one I was thinking of.  Two seperate capules facing opposite directions each with individual outputs that can be combined any way you choose.  The MKH 800 TWIN is somewhat unique in that it offers 'after the fact' pattern control, yet can not function as a stereo or surround mic on it's own.  But as you mention, with the addtion of another mic it will produce be used to generate virtual first order mic patterns in the 360 degree horizontal plane for single-point stereo or surround.

Here's some info on a couple others I mentioned.. interesting that all of these mics use a different capsule arrangement for a slightly different approach, but each in similar in having seperate outputs from their individual capsule elements.

The Neumann QM69 had four cardioid elements arranged at right angles, each with it's own individual output.  It was designed as an extension of the SM69 stereo microphone as quadraphonic mic. A good history and photos are here.  A small number of early versions had a double body which looks like it was designed by Gene Roddenberry-


The current Josephson I was thinking of is the C700S- a three capsule design with individual outputs that can be matrixed in multiple ways.  It features two figure eight capsules arranged at right angles like the mics mentioned above plus an omni, all in one housing.   The PDF datasheet explains the concept and the different ways the outputs can be combined very well.  This is basically a complete 'native-B format' microphone that can generate virtual first order mic patterns in the 360 degree horizontal plane, but it's flexibility allows it to be used for non-ambisonic applications as well. Photo below shows the C700A two capsule version (one 8 + omni), the 'S' version adds the second fig-8.


The Milab SRND360 is a also a three capsule microphone.  This one is different in that it uses 3 cardioid capsules arranged at even 120 degree angles in the horizontal plane.  Because of that the matrixing values different, but it works similarly for generating virtual mic patterns in the 360 degree horizontal plane I think.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline aracu

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2011, 01:57:09 AM »
Personally, I record on a Nagra VI and link all four mic. pres. to a single control.  I monitor only front left and right capsules to give me an idea and then sort it out in the DAW, with the Soundfield SurroundZone plug-in, later.

Interesting... I was wondering how one would monitor the mic on location without having to convert  to B-format. Do you feel you able to get a good enough idea of mic positioning with this method of listening to the unprocessed front l.r. capsules, for critical music recordings?

I noticed there is very little info on the frequency response of the sps200. How would you
describe it or compare it to other capsules based on your experience?


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2011, 11:20:53 AM »
..Personally, I record on a Nagra VI and link all four mic. pres. to a single control.

I recently picked up a Tascam DR-680 primarily for use with the Tetramic.  The latest DR-680 firmware update which allows ganging channel controls is what drove my decision.  Very convenient to gang/link the first four channel gains for the Tetramic, and 5&6 seperately for omni outriggers or a SBD feed.  Besides the ability to quicky and evenly adjust gain across the entire 4 channel (or six channel) set as required in the field, the freedom from needing to match the trims on each channel using a signal generator and voltmeter along with making a safety recording of the test signal to each channel to allow for checking/correcting that gain match later on the computer is a great ease of use improvement over using the R-44 with this mic.

..This is not for those who prefer non-coincident methods (spaced, or near coincident).  This is a personal decision, but I prefer to get stereo information from both intensity and phase information, hence the desire for non-coincident mics..
..You're absolutely right about these being coincident only, but of course if you have the channels it can be combined with other mics.  I like to run spaced omnis with it, partly for my own comparison, partly because I also have favored the open, atmospheric 'sound' of spaced mics, and partly for the ability to play with combining the sources or routing them to different channels for surround at some point..

I ran the Tetra>DR-680 for the first time a couple weeks ago at Springfest (an Americana/Bluegrass festival on the Suwannee river) along with a SBD feed into channels 5&6 via a burried cable run back to the board.  That freed up the R-44 for spaced omnis.  Using miniature omnis on lightweight telescopic antennas which I've posted about here before, I was able to get something like a 2meter L/R base spacing for a 3 channel Decca tree setup plus a single rear surround channel.  All mics were fixed to a single, small stand (Manfrotto 007) with the Tetramic at the center, all 8 channels worth of mic cabling 'techflexed' into a single snake running from the top of the stand to my recording bag.  The small stand could quickly deployed or collapsed and the telescopic arms retracted/folded without detaching the cabling to the bag for easy portability.  That allowed me to not only setup and breakdown very quickly and easily move the rig between performance stages, but to quicky take advantage of good oportunities by moving the entire setup to the stage-lip for a few things.   At the ampitheater I could attach the small stand to a larger one I had permanently screwed into the ground at the sweet spot along with a couple folding chairs and the burried SBD feed.  It all worked out quite well. I'll post some photos later in my Oddball Mic Techniques thread if anyone is interested in seeing the rig.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 04:17:38 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2011, 11:43:18 AM »
..can I get a highly directional pattern oriented in any direction or is it limited to hyper-sub- cardioid through figure-8 shapes?

Live2496 recently posted a new thread about a very interesting B-format decoding plugin which apparently uses perceptual techniques to further optimize the directivity of virtual mic patterns well beyond the 1st order patterns of the pure mathmatical decoding approach for human listeners.   It also features an very helpful looking visual interface for displaying sound direction vectors and control of the virtual mic patterns.  The output is currently horizontal only or binaural encoded, though horizontal stereo or surround decodes are all most people are working with at this point.  I haven't tried the demo yet, but the information on the site and the video at the bottom of the page are quite intriguing.  It seems that these techniques may offer a way to achive results similar to higher-order ambisonics with a 1st order recording.  That essentially means forming virtual pickup patterns which are more highly directional than hyper/supercardioid or figure-8.  I found the portion of the demo video where it was used to isolate individual voices in a choir especially interesting.  It's a seemingy powerful and very interesting new approach to manipulating B-format files, if a rather costly plugin.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 04:26:01 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2011, 04:14:53 PM »
^^^ It sounds like you're in deep.  I just love that daddy long legs spaced-out omni recording rig you've got.  Spiders have multiple eyes, right?

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2011, 04:37:07 PM »
Thanks, I've wondered a few times if I was going overy deep, but as long as it works, is manageable, doesn't encroach on the enjooyment of others, makes great recordings and I have a good time learning new approaches, I consider everything is OK. I really enjoy figuring out and building this stuff, especially when it works out well.

Maybe I should begin adding eyes to this eight eared spider for panoramic vision.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2011, 03:48:08 PM »
I'll post some photos later in my Oddball Mic Techniques thread if anyone is interested in seeing the rig.

I've posted some photos of the eight eared spider in the Oddball Mic Techniques thread-
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1864048#msg1864048

Link to the entire photo set on Flickr with descriptions on the individual photos-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41278426@N07/sets/72157626421689065/
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline live2496

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2011, 05:34:00 PM »
Nice setup! Are you going to be doing surround mixes or stereo? What software do you plan to use?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2011, 07:03:50 PM »
Both, though my efforts so far are very recoding heavy and light on mixing/processing/playback.  Currently I can playback the non-Tetramic material in surround only by patching the multichannel recorder outputs to my playback system.  I mix to stereo if I need to pass the recording to others.  I don't have multichannel output from the computer I'm currently using, so for that I simply mix the multiple channels of spaced omni material to stereo in Samplitude.  Basically I can get far enough with playback to confirm that I'm going in the right direction with all this, and eventually hope to put significantly more time into the second half of the equation.  I can enjoy it at home for now so I'm satisfied.

For the Tetramic, I can play the A-format files at home directly off the computer by dialing in a stereo decode using VVMic.  If I need to do EQ work and track it I write that output to a file, import it into Samplitude and work on it like any stereo file.  I have not yet played with surround decodes from the Tetramic, other than checking how well stereo surround matrix decoding with Dolby PLIIx and DTS Neo6 works, which is a good mix check and often works nicely. 

I have not seriously tried combining the spaced omni surround material with the Tetramic other than a few mad scientist efforts where I did thngs like decoding the Tetramic to a Left/Right stereo feed off the computer and manually sync'd playback of Center and Surround omni channels from the recorder - or the reverse - spaced omnis to Left/Right/Surrounds and the Tetramic dialed in to a single virtual mic to try messing around with pointing and focusing the Center channel.

Now that I have additional channels on the DR-680 and can lock clock to the R-44, I'm starting to generate more material that doesn't require stretching to sync, so I'm somewhat closer to mixing things up more freely.  Mostly I just need to dedicate a lot more time to doing that part.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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