Topic: Super Stealth -- No Battery Box/Preamp Big Mistake?

[acutejam]

Hello Taperssection! Long time taper here, and just stumbled upon this forum as I thought about upgrading my "rig." Gotta couple hundred to spend on some mics.

I used to tape with other folks' gear in the 80s, "Dude, here's a ticket, you're wearing this hat and you're standing right there." So I have a lot of the vibe down for recording. Stopped for a decade or so, then I got the Zoom H2 to record my jam session, scratch pad for acoustic guitar stuff -- so I thought, what the heck, I'll try and stealth tape a show with this -- just with the internal mics! Results are not optimum, but I can listen to 'em on a car stereo.  (I use Cubase for a solid weekend tweaking each recording!)

But now I'm looking at some super events I want to nail, so I've got the Sony M10 coming and want some mics. But I'm on the fence about the battery boxes or preamps. I know I need it. Recorded at the SF Fillmore and can totally hear the effects of SPL (recorded really low level, but bass and kick drum got muddled regardless?). But many of the lighter folk music stuff I've got came out fine.

I've got some winery events, symphony halls and amphitheater/stadium events so I'm all over the board -- but one thing I'm awful at is getting the gear in. I've been caught at the door 2-3 times with the H2 in the last few years. So I just don't wanna hassle with ANOTHER component. Of the dozen events I've got over the next few months, I'd say at least 1/3 will be extremely heavy door security/scrutiny.

So I'm on the fence of getting a set of mics AND a pre-amp and just not taking the preamp to some shows. But I'd get different mics than what I'm looking at for the "no battery box/preamp" route....

Core's Low Cost Binaurals say they'll run off the mic-in power. SP and CA don't mention that on any of their mics, so I'm thinking of starting with Core's Low Cost Stealthy Cardiods. Otherwise I'd prolly go CA.

SO what are the implications of NOT running a battery box or preamp -- is SPL the major factor?
Will distance from the PA (stand back further) help at the massive loud shows (not an option at Fillmore)?

[SmokinJoe]

A battery box is generally 9v-12v.  The plug in power is more like 2-3v.  Some mics will overload (brickwall, distort, etc) much more quickly at 3v than they will at 9V, others don't.   The term is "head room"... how much more SPL you can take before distorting.

And there are some battery box's and preamps that are scarcely bigger than a 9V battery.  Look at the "CA-ugly".  And SP makes some battery boxes with small car-remote control batteries in them that are pretty small.

I had a set of Church Audio STC-11's... which is the predecessor to the CA-11's.  I sold them to a friend and he has run plug-in-power with an R09HR on stage at Derek Trucks many times.  They didn't brickwall, even on stage.  If you aren't doing heavy metal, there is a decent chance you can run these plug in power.  Also, I think there are some Sonic Studio mics that are said to work with the Sony M10 just fine... and Guy is very explicit on what will power his mics, and what won't.

[F.O.Bean]

Good advice Joe

[cashandkerouac]

Hello Taperssection! Long time taper here, and just stumbled upon this forum as I thought about upgrading my "rig." Gotta couple hundred to spend on some mics.

...then I got the Zoom H2 to record my jam session -- so I thought, what the heck, I'll try and stealth tape a show with this -- just with the internal mics! Results are not optimum, but I can listen to 'em on a car stereo.  (I use Cubase for a solid weekend tweaking each recording!)

But now I'm looking at some super events I want to nail, so I've got the Sony M10 coming and want some mics. But I'm on the fence about the battery boxes or preamps. I know I need it. So I'm on the fence of getting a set of mics AND a pre-amp and just not taking the preamp to some shows. But I'd get different mics than what I'm looking at for the "no battery box/preamp" route....

SO what are the implications of NOT running a battery box or preamp -- is SPL the major factor?
Will distance from the PA (stand back further) help at the massive loud shows (not an option at Fillmore)?

man does this story sound familiar.  that's exactly how i got started a few years back.  i bought a Zoom H4 to record guitar stuff at home and for studio rehearsals... then decided to try it out at a show... it worked great, but eventually i really craved better sound quality.  not too long ago i got an M-10, CA-14 cards and a CA 9100.  great rig for the money, i highly recommend it.  i also bought a battery box, but i have never used it.  even for loud shows i prefer using the pre-amp, and i have never encountered a show that's too loud for a pre-amp as long as you are using the line in jack on the M-10. 

then... it kinda snowballs from there.  if you like recording shows, then the stealth rig just makes you want an open taping rig.  after the Church set-up i got some Sennheiser MKH8040s and an Aerco MP-2 to use with my M-10 and that rig has generated some extremely nice recordings.  i'm absolutely in love with the MP-2 and the MKH mics. 

anyway, to get back to the original question... my vote is for the CA-14 cards and a 9100 (or 9200).  the 9200 is probably going to give you a lot more flexibility to get the right gain for loud shows as well as quiet acoustic shows.

good luck!   

[Church-Audio]

You can use my ANY of my mics with plug in power. However I dont guarantee you wont run into distortion issues. I do make a version of my ca-11 or ca-14 that will run on 2.4 to 3.0 volts of plug in power and not overload but they cant be used with a preamp or battery box later on down the road.

[setboy]

ever thought about bring someone along to carry another small box?

[mfrench]

ohh goodie,... another stealth thread!

[TimeBandit]

got a Tascam DR-7 (old model) + Church pre and mics. never got problems to get this stuff in... for harder cases like yours i got a pocketrak w24 from yamaha, with tweaks in record EQ setting and finding the optimal spot it sounds fine ...

other option: Marantz pmd620 with oade concert mod + mics

[aaronji]

The M10 has a pretty decent pre in it; in my opinion, you can probably skip the external pre.  I would definitely get a battery box, though.  You can get a really small one (as SmokinJoe mentioned some are barely bigger than a 9V battery and even smaller models exist if you don't mind more difficult to find batteries) and it is good insurance.  Plus, if the show is too loud for the mic input, you'll be able to run it through the line input (anything too loud for the mic in should be sufficiently loud enough for line-in)...

other option: Marantz pmd620 with oade concert mod + mics

I have had good success with the Oade PMD620.  I often use it instead of the M10.

[fmaderjr]

I have had good success with the Oade PMD620.  I often use it instead of the M10.

Even a stock PMD620 is great without a battery box (at least for concerts that aren't too quiet). It will power even CA-14's or DPA 4061's without distorting when the music gets very loud. It's hard to get one at a reasonable price though. I only got one because someone put it up on E-Bay for $150. Haven't seen anything remotely close to that since.

Richard (illconditioned) has reported that the M10 will power some mics just fine with plug in power including CA11's (despite Chris' warning) and AT853's.

[Belexes]

Check out the Church Audio battery box in the Retail thread.  It's not even fair to call it a box as nothing surrounds the 9v.  If you get busted with that, then it may be time to give up the hobby. 

[Church-Audio]

I have had good success with the Oade PMD620.  I often use it instead of the M10.

Even a stock PMD620 is great without a battery box (at least for concerts that aren't too quiet). It will power even CA-14's or DPA 4061's without distorting when the music gets very loud. It's hard to get one at a reasonable price though. I only got one because someone put it up on E-Bay for $150. Haven't seen anything remotely close to that since.

Richard (illconditioned) has reported that the M10 will power some mics just fine with plug in power including CA11's (despite Chris' warning) and AT853's.

The huge problem with saying that it will work is this.. Yes it will work but there is always a chance it will not. Unless you always carry a db meter with you and know what the max my mics will handle with a given recorder, you will never know until its too late. Thats why I recommend a battery box or a preamp with my mics.. And its not to sell more preamps and battery boxes. Its because I have no idea what concerts my customers will be attending, now or in the future and I would rather be safe then sorry. Sneaking in a battery box is very easy. So when someone says "it will work" they are not being 100% truthful yeah under the conditions they were in it worked. Well how loud was it exactly? What was the mix like? Where were you in the room? lots of questions.

[acutejam]

Thanks for the input everyone, it's what i was already rapidly concluding from a number of other threads ... that it's a mistake. I'm all over the place from acoustic folk, jazz, symphony to rock and metal so I think I will at least get a battbox. It's the loudest shows that seem to really suffer. Advantage of the preamp is that it helps set gain, zero it in better? Does it color the recording at all, would think so? I don't mind recording low and post processing, but I imagine it'd be best to listen to unadulterated masters?

 I would LOVE to not tape all stealthy, but one can only attend so many elementary school ensembles before It's a Small World comes back to sounding like the masterpiece it is! But that's a topic for other threads -- where is all this open taping happening?

I noted the legal thread outlining various state laws about this hobby. And I've predominately been reading gear and tech threads, but is it OK to talk about getting gear in? Cause I've got some awesome stories of duct tape, girlfriend's thighs and the screams that eminated from the ladies room once we were in. So yeah, it's pretty much up to me now. When I go to shows, if i'm not solo, friends I'm with don't even know I'm taping! (So right, my boots aren't something worth trading beyond the quality issue.... full conversations throughout!)

But I do enjoy taping, I'm extremely aware of the folks reactions around me of course, but I'm also laser-like focused on the performances! Seems to really zero me in, and I get soooo excited "OMG i hope I'm getting this, OMG OMG!"

Hmmm, db meter? I do carry a light meter most of the time, something else for my hipster's kit!

[acidjack]

^^ A lot of bands that are medium-to-smaller size (and some big ones) will be happy for you to tape.  Check the "Taping Policies" section - lots of variety there.  Lots of variety on the LMA for that matter.

Other than huge stadium acts like U2, Springsteen, Metallica, etc. I think you'd be surprised how many bands are really into the idea.  This obviously varies by genre, but it is a totally different world than the 90s when there was basically jam band open taping, and everything else (to make a gross generalization) was "bootlegging" in the eyes of artists.  That is not the case at all now.

And obviously, there are many great bands that have always been in favor of open taping - some of them "jam bands", some not.

[F.O.Bean]

Great thread I would DEF at the very least get a Battery Box I just scored a Sound Professionals one for $25.00/SHIPPED, and its barely bigger than a 9volt battery