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Author Topic: Schoeps or AKG ?  (Read 22268 times)

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Offline tgakidis

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 08:06:44 AM »
Both great companies with lots of options.  As you can tell by my signature, I am an AKG man all the way.  For me, the value/performance vs. cost is a no brainer.  AKG's are a much better value then scheops, bottom line.  If you added up all my AKG Gear and purchased the comprable scheops products (even used) you would go bankrupt.
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Mics: Schoeps CMC6 x 4, Schoeps CMC1K x 2 / Schoeps KC 5G x 2 / Schoeps MK4,MK41,MK21,MK22 x 2 / Austrian Audio OC818 Dual Set+ / Telefunken TF-11 x 2 / Telefunken ELA M 260 x 4 / Telefunken M960FS x 2 / TK60,TK61,TK62 x 2 / Telefunken M60,TK60 x 2 / AKG c426b / AKG c34 / nBob AKG Actives>PFA x 4 / CK61,CK63,CK8 x 2 / AT853 4.7k Mod (Card,Sub)
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My Recordings: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%28Gakidis%29&sort=-da

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 09:10:05 AM »
483's still kick the crap out of any other hyper out there > Cold Hard Truth   >:D

If you intend to use the microphone solely as a hammer, then I agree.  But not if you intend to record.

What is the OPs playback system?  That makes a big difference in how a recording sounds.

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 09:16:53 AM »
I have 1 primary beef with the AKG house sound; The texture of the 8-11khz range (or there abouts) creates a "sizzle" that I think sounds like ass. It's just the color of the mics and not a tonal balance issue. Something about it just doesn't jive with my hearing.

Can you provide an example of this? I've heard this complaint as well, and have noticed it in one of my recordings (http://www.archive.org/details/db2007-06-30.akg451.flac16 about 7:30 into Digital Buddha note the guitar). Is this what you are talking about? I'm wondering if this is just a combination of a bad mix, me running the levels a bit too high, annoying disco biscuits trance, and bad playback. The highs are a little unlistenable at that part. BUT, now listen to the same show, and the Gamma Goblins jam. That has some room for potential sizzle!  If you listen to the Schoeps source, (http://www.archive.org/details/db2007-06-30.mk4.flac16) the guitar highs seem to be a bit more manageable at that same part (~7:30). Schoeps source, Gamma Goblins jam, actually I think sounds better than the AKGs, probably because the mics I were using were 20years old and weren't exactly "minty".. (let's just say I found them wrapped in duct tape, stored in a box with some other Shure SM58 mics). But maybe you could elaborate a bit more on the frequency range you were talking about. I'm not too sure about what the 8z-11k range sounds like... Note that this show was  outdoors, I was probably 100-150 ft from the stage, FOB, close to DFC.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 09:27:16 AM by eclark »
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 09:20:26 AM »
What is the OPs playback system?  That makes a big difference in how a recording sounds.

I have a pair of Sony MDR-V500 s headphones, not exactly high end. Some Bose Companion II desktop speakers, and mainly, the car stereo in my VW!
But not to say, I won't want to listen to these recordings (Phish) on a pair of MagnePans and a tube preamp, or Totems with a Audio Research power Amp  ;)
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

Offline page

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 09:42:57 AM »
I'm not too sure about what the 8z-11k range sounds like...

mostly cymbal, some voice articulation shows up there as well. 12-14khz sounds like "air" in my experience for lack of a better description.

Can you provide an example of this?

I'll listen to the samples when I get home this evening but when I notice it most is in listening to someone ride a cymbal. I remember it's more promonant on the 480s than the 460s but I find it on both.
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Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 09:49:27 AM »
If i was limited to only these two, I'd pick the AKG's. That being said, I'd say neither and stop wasting your time, go to the Microtech Gefell's. These would be examples of German's who actually know what they're doing.  ;D  ;)
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 09:53:12 AM »
483's still kick the crap out of any other hyper out there > Cold Hard Truth   >:D

If you intend to use the microphone solely as a hammer, then I agree.  But not if you intend to record.

What is the OPs playback system?  That makes a big difference in how a recording sounds.

 :clapping:
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline raymonda

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2011, 10:34:03 AM »
I have AKG's, Neumann's, Schoeps and many, many others that I use. The AKG's are a good mic and one I use for particular purposes but rarely, if ever, now that I have a large selection of mics, do I use them for 2 point stereo. That's not to say that they don't make a great recording, they do.........and I would certainly recomend anyone to use them...........It is that they don't seem to create the same organic 3d soundfield as other mics I have, with the exception of the 414's and the C12's. That being said, often times the way you configure the pair for recording will have more of an impact on sound than the mic itself. Tony S., has his recording technique down to a science and gets consistantly the best sound from the mics he uses, and has so for a long time. He will sacrafice demensional soundfield for a tight, full sound, which has a strong appeal. He made during the 80's, some of the best recording with nak 300's that I have heard....and I'm not a big nak fan due to their coloration. But he knows how to use them and get the best out of them.

As for tonal balance, I find it a bit difficult to complain about this when recording PA systems, which are usually pretty colored to begin with. As long as the mic is within close tonal striking range, I can usually get acceptable results. The sound of the PA will bother me more than the sound of the mic. I think it is certainly more valid when disussing naturally mic'ed instruments in real space. That being said.......Scheops and Neumann and 414's seem more natural to my ear. However, situation may lend you to wanting a certain sound and thus reaching for that mic.

The old saying is, "Mic's are like crayons......Grab the color for the job that needs to get done".

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2011, 10:47:02 AM »
The old saying is, "Mic's are like crayons......Grab the color for the job that needs to get done".
thanks for the input
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2011, 02:25:42 PM »
I myself own both (Schoeps Mk41s and AKG 414s) and I owned AKG ck91 and ck93 in the past.  Between me and the other nyctaper guys I get to hear a good bit of Schoeps (Mk41, Mk5, Mk4V), AKG (2 sets of 414s), DPA (3 sets of 4021s) and Neumann (KM150).  Let's just get this out of the way - in terms of pure value and bang for the buck, the AKG product line wins hands down, particularly in the LD mic that gives you every pattern for ~$1200-1400 used.

That said, obviously, the statement you made about "Schoeps" was a blanket statement that includes, potentially, a wide range of products.  I feel like the "Schoeps are boomy" comment applies primarily to the MK4 cap, recording PA systems.  Let's leave aside for a moment other applications, like onstage, etc.  To me, the MK4 and DPA 402x are pretty comparable in that they are both pretty accurate but also pretty dark.  When recording a boomy PA system, especially in a sub-optimum placement, they will let you know.  A steady and judicious hand with the EQ, however, can turn recordings with these mics consistently into gold, as they give you a very pure reproduction to work with.  AKGs are brighter off the bat - the 414 B-XLS being specifically built with an HF bump, just like the MK5 - so it is not surprising that an un-EQ'd recording with them that you heard on the LMA might be preferable to, say, the MK4.

If you're talking solely about stereo pairs, recording PA systems, before EQ, I'd say among what  my buddies and I have done, having the chance to compare different sources of the same show, I prefer the Schoeps MK5 the most often, the MK41 next, the AKG 414 after that, then the Neumanns (which can either be best or worst, depending on application, given their response pattern) and DPAs.  But again, that's a tight set of criteria - I (and the guys I record with) almost always use at least some EQ, and we don't do plain vanilla stereo all that often.   I suspect my feelings about the Schoeps MK4 would be closer to my feelings about the DPAs, based on the MK4 pulls I've heard.     

What raymonda said is the real truth, which is different mics have different ideal uses.   But I would say that, having had the chance to try out some of the high-end kinds, and not considering price, the Schoeps not only sound the best, but they offer by far the most diversity of possible setups with their wide range of capsule offerings, cablings, mounts, etc.  Obviously their customer service is excellent, although I would suggest DPAs is even better as they have a stateside office for servicing, whereas Schoeps requires you to go through a distributor back to Europe.

Price aside, I think Schoeps wins hands-down in sound quality, versatility and size.  If I were not considering size but was considering price, I don't see how you could do a lot better than the AKG 414s, and for an SDC, certainly, the 46x and 48x mics are a very high quality mic that costs less than Schoeps, DPA or Neumann.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 02:28:38 PM by acidjack »
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2011, 02:39:29 PM »
I can see you having the preferences you do in the other mic's, but Neumann's over Gefell's?!?! That's just blasphemy! I also don't know why Gefell's are not even in this discussion. The M21's & M27's smoke any other hyper or omni.  ;D
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2011, 02:49:56 PM »
I can see you having the preferences you do in the other mic's, but Neumann's over Gefell's?!?! That's just blasphemy! I also don't know why Gefell's are not even in this discussion. The M21's & M27's smoke any other hyper or omni.  ;D

To be honest, I owned the MG210s that SmokinJoe now has (traded for his 414s).  For the bands I record and places I record I did not care for them AT ALL - every pull I did was just nasty and midrange-y.  I didn't do that many pulls with them, and I know how beloved they are, but they just didn't do it for me.  Again, speaking solely of what I recorded and where, I found they had the thin low-end of the 150s without the crisp high-end.  Again, this is speaking solely to my own situation, not to the great pulls others seem to get with them.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline willndmb

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2011, 02:50:43 PM »
this is the first time i have ever seen someone disagree that the ck63 hypers are not the best
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
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Offline Chuck

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2011, 02:57:24 PM »
I can see you having the preferences you do in the other mic's, but Neumann's over Gefell's?!?! That's just blasphemy! I also don't know why Gefell's are not even in this discussion. The M21's & M27's smoke any other hyper or omni.  ;D

To be honest, I owned the MG210s that SmokinJoe now has (traded for his 414s).  For the bands I record and places I record I did not care for them AT ALL - every pull I did was just nasty and midrange-y.  I didn't do that many pulls with them, and I know how beloved they are, but they just didn't do it for me.  Again, speaking solely of what I recorded and where, I found they had the thin low-end of the 150s without the crisp high-end.  Again, this is speaking solely to my own situation, not to the great pulls others seem to get with them.

The Gefells do have a more pronounced mid-range. Which to my ears is a good thing sometimes when compared to the AKG's which I describe as having a more scooped mid-range sound. I find that scooped AKG mid-range sound often sounds good when recording PA systems.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2011, 03:03:11 PM »
I agree there is a more pronounced mid-range with the Gefells. One thing I do that helps alot with bringing in the low end is to use the right pre-amp. A transformer based pre-amp like the Neve Portico 5012 or Aerco MP-2 really brings in some great low end to the mix. A V3 is just too clean and didn't do it for me, but the transformer based pre's help out with that a lot. I'm about ready to post my pull from the Panic show in Boston, i'll post a link once it's done. If you don't think the Gefell's can give you the bottom end you want, check out my Jane's Addiction pull from the Vibes in the kickdown section.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:06:42 PM by Myco »
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

 

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