Topic: Recording classical piano

[thunderbolt]

Undecided about what micing technique.  Steinway grand (unsure exact model) in a college auditorium with a reputation for not great acoustics.  Hall seats probably about 300.  I'm looking for perhaps the safest approach that will yield a good-sounding, usable recording.  I have never taped piano in a performance space.  Will have the ability to walk around pre-performance, and know about covering ears, listening, etc.  Have read as much as there is out there on technique--obviously tons of options.

Gear:
Pre: Lunatec V3
Deck: SD722
Mics: AKG 482, or Avantone CK-40 (can do XY, M-S, Blumlein)

I assume that it would make sense to close-mic instead of Jecklin or Blumlein.  Was thinking about:

1.  Omni AB at the curve (assume piano at full-stick), at five feet out and 6 feet up, pointing down toward the soundboard.

2.  Omnis inside the piano facing soundboard, one mic mid-hi on soundboard, the other low, avoiding hammers, pedal dampers.

3.  Stereo mic in M-S, in approximately the same location as #1.

OR:

4. Jecklin in approximately the same location as #1, 3.

5. Blumlein in approximately the same location as #1, 3.

Thoughts?  I know, opinions are like a**holes....

[WiFiJeff]

Jecklin disc and Blumlein work very well if the hall acoustics are good, I often use them.  But I've also had very good results from a pair of Schoeps MK22 caps in "modified" ORTF (slightly diffrent angles) at about 7 feet up and 6 feet back, pointing into the open lid, stand just to the right (facing the stage) of the bend in the piano.  This minimizes audience noise, too.

Jeff

[Gutbucket]

Solo?  You have two omnis and a coincident LD stereo mic, right?

All the options you list can work well for solo piano. I'd coose by considering the type of music, the player & the room.  Classical generally benefits from less of an up front and direct sound than popular music, jazz and the like, so I'd tend to rule out mics placed under the lid or too close based on the genre.  If the room sounded good you could more easily get away with moving farther away and using any of the options you've outlined.  But if the room is not complementary you may want something that lets you get the mics relatively close (clasically speaking) yet still sounds spacious and not too up front- and that suggests A-B omnis to me over the others for its extra spaciousness that can help bolster a less than optimal room reverb.   Blumlein can sound stellar but is more placement specific IMO, where omnis are both more forgiving in placement and also in helping add some atificial spaciousness if the room sound is mediocre but acceptable.
 
I'd suggest the omnis spaced 2' apart or so, around where Jeff mentions, possibly closer if the room dictates and you have a chance to optimize it by monitoring the direct/reverberant ratio while setting up.  I'd like to run the Avantone in Blumlein as well at the same time though if you have access to a second recorder.  It's essentially omnidirectional in the horizontal stereo plane too, but may be able to be moved slightly farther away than the omnis because it isn't picking up diffuse sound from above and below.  If you need to place the Blumlein mic closer than you'd prefer in order to get the correct reverberant balance, you can narrow the angle between capsules to somewhat less than 90 degrees which will open the recording angle and solidify the center so you don't end up with a piano that sounds 20' wide.

[thunderbolt]

Great ideas, guys, thanks.

I do have omnis, but also have the card and hypercard caps for the 480s, and yup, the Avantone is a LD stereo.  I would love to run Blumlein, but it would take time to determine if the acoustics would really support it, and they're suspect.

My second recorder is a Sony PCM M-10. My only option would be to run some form of AT U853 (and I have all the caps, including subcards), or an AT822.   I do also have some old Rat Shack PZMs (unmodified, although I have the higher voltage batteries for it).  I know that might be an option, too.

[noahbickart]

M-S at the height of the open piano lid. Adjust the stereo width in post.

[John Willett]

My starting position for piano is 20cm spaced omnis at about ear height about 2m in front of the piano.

This would be adjusted according to the piano, room, music, etc.

I would normally get the pianist to play and move around to find where it sounds best to my ears and then put the mics there.

[dlh]

I'm somewhat new to piano recording so I did some testing with omnis and cards before I recorded a recital in a college chapel.
The cards were 461's and the omnis were SP C4's.
The omni's pointed at the sound holes just under the lid sounded nice and rich, not agressive.  But still didn't sound like the piano in the space.
The spaced omni's 6' in front of full open lid 6' up sounded nice, but with lots of reverberance. (It was a stone chapel).  Downside was that they were the C4's, not the 460's.

The actual recital was in a different chapel, very reverberant, not as pure as the stone one.
My favorite sound was the 461's ORTF about 6' in front of the full stick open lid about 1' above the lip of the piano near the end of the bend.  Not much hall sound but captured the players beautifully. (many compliments).
I also ran the omni's during the recital.  They did sound good, much more room sound.  But I still preferred the 461's ORTF.  I did pull them together a little in post.
The recital was recorded for the parents of the two players so my goal was to capture as much subtlety of the instrument and players as possible.
Reverberance was noticable during pauses with very little when the piano was in full "voice".
The recorded omni's suffered the most from being C4's but I still preferred the card approach in the two reverberant spaces.

BTW, I think the 460's are great piano mics, and the two student players were outstanding and moving.  Gave me a new appreciation of Chopin (and Prokofiev).

Just my $.01  (would be $.02 if I had more experience)

Dave

[Gutbucket]

Reverberance was noticable during pauses with very little when the piano was in full "voice".

That sound like a good balance, and that balance can be one of the more difficult things to get just right unless you can listen while moving the mics around.

[thunderbolt]

M-S at the height of the open piano lid. Adjust the stereo width in post.

^^^^^^^^
I'm going to experiment with omni AB, but I think I'll go this route, with an omni mid instead of a card.  Should improve the low-end and perhaps provide a fuller sound.  Thanks.

[dlh]

Reverberance was noticable during pauses with very little when the piano was in full "voice".

That sound like a good balance, and that balance can be one of the more difficult things to get just right unless you can listen while moving the mics around.

Yes, my "rule of thumb" when adding reverb in post is, "You can't tell it's there until you turn it off."

Dave

[F.O.Bean]

Schoeps MK2S Omni A/B

[John Willett]

Using directional mics on a concert grand for a recital recording makes it sound pretty thin comapred to using omnis.

I did an extensive test before a recording once with an MS pair and an omni pair - the MS pair very clearly lost the bottom end - and the cardioid I used for the test was am MKH 40 which goes a lot lower than other cardioids.

Hearing reverberation is normal and not something you should get rid of - you just adjust the mic. position to get the right balance - and don't forget that the audience will deaden the sound a bit and will tame a more reverberant environment.

As I said - 20cm spaced omnis at ear height 2m from the piano is a good starting position for a piano recital recording - I have done many piano CDs like this.

MS with an omni mid gives you the same sound as a pair of cardioids back-to-back, facing away from each other, 90° to the piano - ie: looking at the side walls.

[thunderbolt]

Thanks for the information, John. 

I found out that there will be solo piano, then four hands (two separate pianos), then a vocalist with several stringed instruments.  I'm thinking now that I'll run two rigs: a Jecklin on stage and perhaps M-S from the stage lip.  There's no way I can move mics around and expect it will work. 
It's a concern that the room doesn't sound very good, but I really don't think I can close-mic more than the solo piano.

It is going to be professionally recorded by a guy/company that has a contract with the university.  From what my faculty friends say, he rarely does multitrack.  It sounds like he usually uses a single stereo pair in these situations.  I'm hoping to talk with him.  There are a lot of performing spaces at the university, and many aren't acoustically very good.  I'm just recording to get a handle on these rooms with an eye towards having a side business down the road, in the future (student recitals, not the faculty stuff he does, so no competition). 

I'll let you know how it turns out after Sunday's performance.

[F.O.Bean]

Best of luck

[guysonic]

HRTF baffled omni is the ONLY configuration giving natural and consistant recored results./  Proven for this ability for over 27 years with dozens of sample recordings of classical piano at: http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm#sessions

[WiFiJeff]

HRTF baffled omni is the ONLY configuration giving natural and consistant recored results.

While I am a great fan of baffled omnis, I might have mildly objected to this in the past as a bit too doctrinaire.  Since last Friday, however, I don't even think it is true.  Josephson C700S using only X and Y channels in Blumlein.  I doubt I'll ever use anything else on piano (I've used Jecklin disks and Guy's LiteGuy baffle with Schoeps MK2S, Josephson C617s, Sanken CO 100K, DPA etc. omnis).

Jeff

[dlh]

HRTF baffled omni is the ONLY configuration giving natural and consistant recored results.

Josephson C700S using only X and Y channels in Blumlein. 
Jeff

Oh my!  I'd love to hear that!
I've dreamed of owning a Josephson; maybe a second mortgage.

[guysonic]

HRTF baffled omni is the ONLY configuration giving natural and consistant recored results.

While I am a great fan of baffled omnis, I might have mildly objected to this in the past as a bit too doctrinaire.  Since last Friday, however, I don't even think it is true.  Josephson C700S using only X and Y channels in Blumlein.  I doubt I'll ever use anything else on piano (I've used Jecklin disks and Guy's LiteGuy baffle with Schoeps MK2S, Josephson C617s, Sanken CO 100K, DPA etc. omnis).

Jeff

Greetings everybody,

Jeff knows better, but continues to post his complaints with the LiteGUY baffle.  He has been advised that the LietGUY is ONLY sold as a system of HRTF baffle AND DSM mic that ALWAYS satisfies as a system of Baffle and DSM mic.   

Changing anything produces dissatisfying results.  Below is Jeff’s first reply after trying the SYSTEM as it was intended to work!!!


In a message dated 05/13/2006 8:17:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jff@ix.netcom.com writes:
Holy shit, Leonard.  Holy shit.  Holy shit.

The LiteGuy baffle arrived Thursday, and I took it out for a spin
yesterday.  I was taping a chamber music ensemble, lots of
different instruments in different arrangements with no time to
do any major repositioning between pieces, with xy cardioids
I would have had major balance issues.  I ran a set of
Josephson C617 bodies with Microtek Gefell caps, into a
Sound Devices 722 at 24/96.

None of the artifacts I heard with Jecklin disk or Schneider disk
recordings.  I'm totally thrilled.  When I first started taping five
years ago, I thought the LiteGuy was the funniest weirdest
thing I had seen, and was certain I'd never use THAT!  I'm
going to fluff it on taperssection, hope I don't lose too many
tickets!

Jeff

Jeffrey

[WiFiJeff]

??  You have posted one of the weirdest comments I have seen.

Please read what I wrote.  I was not posting "complaints" about the Lite Guy baffle.  I have certainly not "continued" posting complaints, in fact I identified myself as a great fan of baffled omnis, as you quote but seem not to understand.  I was saying that the Josephson C700S is hands down the best microphone I know of for classical music recording, including piano.  I do most of my listening on headphones, and the stereo imaging of this mic is eerie compared to what I am used to, using a wide range of equipment, including yours.  A friend of mine auditions my stuff on a high-end system with $15,000+ speakers, he wrote of a string quartet recording "I'm really searching for words.  The old one had presence in spades and nice spread.  The new one (C700S) has presence on a completely different order of magnitude, if you can quantify that.  It's not only about depth and localization, I can feel the contours of their space with my hands.  You can follow different instruments not because of spread or localization (only).  It's something I can't define - ... I can tell them apart through something more real.  Also, they are not so much in front of me, but I am sitting in a space surrounding all of us.  There is just no way to convey this." 

My enthusiasm for your mics and baffle FIVE YEARS AGO was real, I still like them but I have found what I think is better (it is also admittedly frightfully more expensive).  YMMV, but that's what my ears say and so do other folks I've shared with.  What about this constitutes a "complaint"??

Jeff

[newplanet7]

FIRST OFF
I do believe we are not supposed to post PM's or e-mails on this forum.
SECOND
I don't think what jeff wrote was at all a slant on YOUR baffle. Matter of fact, the only thing he said about it was that he's used it in the past on piano. He looks as if he was merely stating that he is psyched with his results using his NEW C700S and was getting sick results, IE natural and consistent, and was stating that baffled omnis were not the only way to achieve that.

Just because he got what he considers great results without using HRTF baffled omni in no way even remotely ties together with him complaining about your product. In the beginning he actually said if it weren't for his new experience, he would be just about in agreeing with you.
YOU are stating it's the ONLY way, he is stating it's not.
Am I reading that right Jeff?

[WiFiJeff]

Am I reading that right Jeff?

Absolutely.  70% of the recording I do is head baffled omnis, the C700S is not exactly low profile.

Jeff