Topic: anyone using Omnis exclusively?

[genesisoh]

I have both CA-14 Cards and Omnis.  I really like the sound of the omnis (just a personal preference) but I am not always in front of the speakers or in the spots where omnis are generally at their best.  However, I would still like to use the omnis and am curious if there is anyone else out there that uses omnis either exclusively or predominantly and how have your results been?  Thanks in advance!

[bryonsos]

I rock the omnis as a first choice. 3ft spread brings the heat!

[adrianf74]

I have both CA-14 Cards and Omnis.  I really like the sound of the omnis (just a personal preference) but I am not always in front of the speakers or in the spots where omnis are generally at their best.  However, I would still like to use the omnis and am curious if there is anyone else out there that uses omnis either exclusively or predominantly and how have your results been?  Thanks in advance!

I almost exclusively run my omnis these days (and have for several months).  Out of the last 25 shows I've recorded, 23 of them have been using the omnis and I wish I had used the omnis for a 24th.  At the same time, there were two shows of these 23 where I would have liked to have used the CA-14 cards, however, due to security issues, etc., I couldn't and ended up with a (IMHO) subpar capture.   

I generally prefer ths sound that the omnis capture over the best placed cards and that was why I recently upgraded to DPA 4061s.  The CA-14 omnis served me well but I also like the idea of having something that is smaller, and IMHO, better sounding.  I would not say the DPA's are even 2x better sounding than the CA-14s but at 7-8x the price (new), I wouldn't have gone that route if I didn't get a good deal on a used pair. 

For recording, I generally try to get as close as I can to stacks towards the front of the club. If it's not GA, then I always try to get seats in the first eight to ten rows of a theatre/smaller venue.  If I'm at an arena/amphitheatre/stadium show or even a larger GA club where I can't get up close and get stuck back by the soundboard area (i.e., a 3000 capacity club), I'll run the cards because I can't get close enough.  There will be times where your cards will be better suited to pull a better recording, however, I find I usually go with the omnis and am very happy that I did.

[acidjack]

I have both CA-14 Cards and Omnis.  I really like the sound of the omnis (just a personal preference) but I am not always in front of the speakers or in the spots where omnis are generally at their best.  However, I would still like to use the omnis and am curious if there is anyone else out there that uses omnis either exclusively or predominantly and how have your results been?  Thanks in advance!

Depends on your situation. Stealth it's a reasonable move. Normal open taping situations back by the sbd or even FOB, indoors, hard to rely on omnis exclusively. 

[Drgiggles1]

I currently use omni's exclusively (CA14's) and have used them FOB, side of board, up close, as well as mezzanine level and loved the results in all situations. Haven't had the opportunity for a stadium show but next summer will get the chance with RW doing the Wall. Stealthy only for me.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Only when I'm "not allowed" to use my directional mics.

I have been running my omni's as a second source when running open without soundboard access. Now that I can run 6 channels easily I'd also like to try to run the omni's on stage + cards in the OTS + SBD. Not sure when I'll have the opportunity to do that in the near future though.

If I had the choice to only have a single option, I'd go with the cards.

[page]

I could have really used a good set of omnis (or even a set of subcards) last night... I'm mildly envious of those that have sets.

[F.O.Bean]

I could have really used a good set of omnis (or even a set of subcards) last night... I'm mildly envious of those that have sets.

Why dont you pick up a set of CA14 Omnis? I scored mine in the YS for $80.00/Shipped

[adrianf74]

I could have really used a good set of omnis (or even a set of subcards) last night... I'm mildly envious of those that have sets.

Why dont you pick up a set of CA14 Omnis? I scored mine in the YS for $80.00/Shipped

And for $80, that's a bargain (even at $100 you're laughing).

[Walstib62]

I've gone to omni's almost exclusively. Often omni/card 4 channel.

[cybergaloot]

I like omnis when they work with the venue acoustics. If you are facing bleed over from another stage or are in a boomy room, cards or hypers are the way to go.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I've had situations where omni's are great and just the tool for the job.  But, most often, I usually run cards.

[Gutbucket]

My favorite pattern.. though often mounted on things like walls, floors, spheres, or bodies, in which case they are no longer omnis. If I could only have a few mics, I'd go with omnis.

[Smokey]

I'm recording with Nevaton MCE400's no matter what the venue. These mics seem a little bit directional and I'm noticing much less crowd noise (especially claps) than with my previous omni set (CS binaurals). I'm looking forward to using these outdoors where they should really shine.

I'm running through a Tinybox set up for 16v phantom using a dual-XLR>6-pin mini-XLR cable from Naiant with a pigtail out to an R09. The Tinybox has a separate minijack-out, so I have plenty of options if I decide to add another set of mics later. I'd probably look for a card or subcard pair which could be terminated with a 6-pin mini-XLR and no pigtail. But I digress- I'm happy with what I'm using now.

[Belexes]

Depends where my location is in the venue on what I will run. I will not back myself into a corner and run only cards or only omnis.  Choice is best.

I run mostly low-pro and do not like chatty folks, so I tend to favor cards in a reserved seat venue where I can not move so easily & am indoors.  Outdoors with no roof, I like omnis, especially if I am close to the sound source.
I know omnis sound more natural, but they also pickup unwanted indoor acoustics.  I have some venues I visit that sound like dog shit, acoustic-wise.

[DSatz]

When I started out recording in the 1970s, my first good pair of condenser microphones were omnis (AKG C 451) and so was my next, better pair (Neumann KM 83). I liked the spacious, sprawling feel of a recording made with omnis, and the easy, immediate "listenability" as long as the treble balance and the reverberation balance were within reason. When I upgraded to Schoeps (CMT 56, CMC 32 or CMC 35) some of my clients became positively ecstatic.

However, for the kind of recording I mostly did (classical and baroque chamber and orchestral music, often with soloists), the inability to localize the particular sound sources cohesively--the lack of "image stability"--was something that I soon learned to perceive as a problem. There could be a great wash of beautiful sound, but it was like being a jellyfish in the sea. I changed over to directional microphones, placed either in a "coincident" or a "near-coincident" type of setup, and used that approach for the next 20 or so years. But there were sensual qualities that I sometimes wished I could still get in my recordings.

Long story short, much of the swimmy imaging comes from the peculiar American notion that omnidirectional microphones need to be widely spaced apart to produce a stereo effect. Diagram after diagram in American recording textbooks shows a stage with omnidirectional microphones set at about 1/4 and 3/4 of the way across, or sometimes about 1/3 and 2/3. I had friends in Germany who were recording engineers, and I discovered that they never used omnis that way--instead, they placed the mikes only maybe 18" or two feet apart. And the stereo effect was much better (and much more stable) than I would ever have imagined. In their textbooks this method of stereo recording is called "small A/B" as compared with our "large A/B" approach.

I think that many people in this forum, who are putting pairs of omnis on single mike stands or are using body-mounted microphones, are approximating the "small A/B" technique out of necessity. That turns out to have some real advantages, is what I'm trying to say here (except that body-mounted microphones can't possibly function as omnis at mid or particularly at high frequencies, so that's a whole other kettle of phish).

--best regards

[Gutbucket]

I like the 'small A-B' technique of somewhere around two to three feet.  Even when I find a big spacing of two meters appropriate and good (like from farther back outdoors), it's even better with another mic in the middle, effectively cutting that bigger (if not textbook American 'wide A-B') mic-to-mic spacing in half.

The vage spaced omni 'image stability' can be a benefit for a lot of the recording done by most of the members here, making it easier to get other more important balances right, in situations that often have less than ideal sound source localization to begin with, changing or unpredictable acts.  Of course there are plenty of good exceptions to that, especially recordings made on-stage, or the 'stage-lip' with an appropriate stage setup.  Yet I find there are just as many similar on-stage situations where sonic image location is compromized and vageness helps.

[BayTaynt3d]

I use omnis all the time for jazz and classical/chamber when the space is condusive (aka, not a bar or loud scene). I tend to run about 18" split for onstage small ensemble acoustic jazz and 3' split high on a stand and slightly back in the sweet spot for classical/chamber. But for rock, loud, or shitty venues, cards all the way.

[Gutbucket]

Ran my compact bastardized surround Decca Tree for amplified PA funk/horns/rock type material all last weekend at Bear Creek, mostly up front at the stage-lip or stage-rail, but also back about 20' for a few other acts/stages.  ~3' spacing between Left/Right mics (face of capsules angled +/- 45 degrees away from center, ~2' spacing between the Center/Surround mics.  DPA 4060 omnis mounted in sphere attachements for some high frequency directionality as well as mic security and radical dancer eye protection just above head level.  High SPL levels means crowd noise is relatively minimal, yet crowd energy and reaction between songs is great and well balanced level-wise with the music, though quiet sections are at the mercy of those surrounding.  For a few acts I pluged another recorder into the SBD back at the board and as it was also a 4 channel machine, ran a second set of omnis as wide A-B taped to the soundboard cage railing simply for possible additional surround ambience.  Go omnis.

[foofan38]

Total taping newbie here, but was looking to get both CA-14 cards and omnis and try to cover all my bases. Out of curiosity though, in a situation when you are up front (<4ft) with a very loud crowd (bar, club, etc) would it be worth trying cards just to avoid picking up too much of the crowd? Or is there such a thing as being "too close" for cards?

[Craig T]

No, I wouldn't say you can get "too close" for cards.  I have the CA14 cards and omnis and prefer the omnis because they sound more natural to my ears.  In a loud bar, I'd go cards DIN as a general rule.

[Gutbucket]

Cardioids work close.  Most mics used for singing and close mic'ing instuments on-stage are cards.  One thing to be aware of with most cardioids used really close is their 'proximity effect' zone, a region within which the microphone becomes increasingly sensitive to bass.  I don't know about the CA-14's proximity effect because I don't have a pair, but that usually starts within ~3 feet, increasing as the sound source and mic get closer still, though the extent of proximity and its 'sound' varies significantly between makes.  That's a distance usually closer than most of the setups used around here though, even when taping on-stage or from the front lip of the stage.

Generally, your good stereo options for a pair of cardioids are closer together and angled apart more verses less close and facing the same direction.. or any number of positions between that trades distance against angle.

If the aim is less pickup of crowd noise arriving mostly from directly behind, try configurations that use less angle between the microphones so they 'face away from the noise'. Having less angle between microphones usually means compensating by either increasing the distance between them or using something that acts as a baffle beween them.  If choosing wider, at some point you end up with the microphones parallel and spaced something like two feet apart, give or take a foot or so. 

[cybergaloot]

Cardioids work close.  Most mics used for singing and close mic'ing instuments on-stage are cards. 

One of the reasons for this is to prevent feedback by them picking up the monitors. It also helps isolate the instruments in the mix some.

[genesisoh]

Hi all,

For the past few months I have experimented by using CA-14 omnis all the time.  I have made some excellent pulls and one that came out subpar.  As someone mentioned above, I also like the audience sounds you get from omnis - the ambiance if you will.  For one show, I was a bit of a ways back and did get more chatter than I would like, however the instruments and in particular the drums sounded great (even though i was not directly facing the speakers).  For the other shows I was closer to the stage either dead center or off to the right.  These came out great (except for one show where everything sounds distant and muffled - I think it was lousy sound at the venue itself). 

All shows were VERY bassy and I shaped and/or rolled off bass at around 80hz.  This generally took care of it except for one show that had ALOT of bass and artifacts.  For this show I rolled off bass at 160 hz and shaped the lower end using Har Bal (anyone else use this program?). 

So overall I have had positive experiences with the omnis.  The CA-14's in particular have done a superb job in capturing all frequencies with little to no distortion.  I have been quite impressed!  Thanks Chris Church for making such great mics!!!  Right now I am debating whether to continue my "all omni" string of recordings, or to try and do an "all card" string using the CA-14 cards.  My goal is to get a good feel for what each type sounds like in a variety of situations.