Topic: Best mic config for mk21s ???

[F.O.Bean]

as you can see, i have MANY active mounting options and im wondering what config is best for mk21s FOB/DFC i was thinking either NOS/ORTF or WideORTF im recording the tv w them in NOS and that sounds nice and open! i was thinking ORTF would get a lot of use but when using ORTF, are the caps just too close together? i dont want to go too wide with WideORTF, thats why i was thinking NOS would prob be best
thanks,
bean

[bryonsos]

Based on this: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/mk21/application I'd be inclined to try PAS.

[F.O.Bean]

Based on this: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/mk21/application I'd be inclined to try PAS.

that just says its particularly good in M/S and near coincident configs ala DINa/DIN/ORTF/WideORTF/NOS/MS/etc..
says nothing about PAS althought im sure PAS would sound killer too. id rather use the hypers PAS and the subcards NOS/ORTF/WideORTF even DIN

[bryonsos]

Based on this: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/mk21/application I'd be inclined to try PAS.

that just says its particularly good in M/S and near coincident configs ala DINa/DIN/ORTF/WideORTF/NOS/MS/etc..
says nothing about PAS althought im sure PAS would sound killer too. id rather use the hypers PAS and the subcards NOS/ORTF/WideORTF even DIN

"The MK 21’s orientation is less critical than with a cardioid, since direct sound arriving on axis and reverberant or other sounds off axis are both reproduced accurately. This lack of coloration in the off-axis pickup produces a “warm” and natural sonic impression."

[brianp]

I don't really like to use the mk21's indoors for the most part. I feel like they end up picking up too much unwanted reverb from the room. If I do run them up close inside, I've found NOS works fine. On stage is a different story and ORTF wide has served me well.

Outdoor, open air recordings are where the 21's truly shine. I don't really hear much difference when using ORTF wide vs. NOS outside. I tend to run the ORTF wide if I'm really close and the NOS bar when a little bit further away. You really can't go wrong using the NOS bar with the 21's though. I've experimented using just the ORTF bar and found the sound to be too bloated with more low end then I would like. You can however use the ORTF with fine results really close in an open air environment. I think they need just a little more spacing to get that nice punch that these caps are famous for.

[F.O.Bean]

I don't really like to use the mk21's indoors for the most part. I feel like they end up picking up too much unwanted reverb from the room. If I do run them up close inside, I've found NOS works fine. On stage is a different story and ORTF wide has served me well.

Outdoor, open air recordings are where the 21's truly shine. I don't really hear much difference when using ORTF wide vs. NOS outside. I tend to run the ORTF wide if I'm really close and the NOS bar when a little bit further away. You really can't go wrong using the NOS bar with the 21's though. I've experimented using just the ORTF bar and found the sound to be too bloated with more low end then I would like. You can however use the ORTF with fine results really close in an open air environment. I think they need just a little more spacing to get that nice punch that these caps are famous for.

Thanks Brian, I was looking for a post like that I won't be running them much indoors, def mostly outdoors, but in my usual indoor taping spot, these might shine in NOS. can't wait til I get another kcy and TB so I can run both the mk41s and mk21s at the same time. Taylor just did a p groove show like that and it SMOKES hard core!!!

Thanks for the post buddy

[H₂O]

NOS period!

[F.O.Bean]

NOS period!

Thanks Richard, that's what I was thinking from the get go besides, the TV sounds nice and clear in NOS

[F.O.Bean]

Anyone else?

[acidjack]

Anyone else?

The few times I was involved, they sounded great NOS onstage, though ORTF was also great (we had two separate pairs of 21s to compare, one NOS, one ORTF.  I think I slightly preferred the ORTF.

Further back I'd never go with a higher angle than NOS, personally.   If you're going to run them ORTF from the "impact zone" you might as well just run omnis IMO.  Though I have to say, I really only have loved tapes with the 21s and 22s when they were onstage or really close (like 10-15 ft from stage) in a smaller club.

[F.O.Bean]

Anyone else?

Though I have to say, I really only have loved tapes with the 21s and 22s when they were onstage or really close (like 10-15 ft from stage) in a smaller club.

Thats great, because thats how close I usually am

[page]

I don't really like to use the mk21's indoors for the most part. I feel like they end up picking up too much unwanted reverb from the room. If I do run them up close inside, I've found NOS works fine. On stage is a different story and ORTF wide has served me well.

Outdoor, open air recordings are where the 21's truly shine. I don't really hear much difference when using ORTF wide vs. NOS outside. I tend to run the ORTF wide if I'm really close and the NOS bar when a little bit further away. You really can't go wrong using the NOS bar with the 21's though.

I wouldn't expect you to, I've found spacing creates more of a difference then angle once I hit about 20cm and it's only 3cm difference between NOS and what we call a "wide ortf" (which is 27cm/110*). Anything past that and I'm getting more stereoness (for lack of a better term) with the time difference then I am with angle. I want the same approximate SRI/etc values so I use the 27cm/110* config outdoors more often as a result, but have used NOS before. The benefit of NOS comes in that you get a better on-axis response with the stacks or whatevers going on onstage. I personally favor the wide angle to help with level-difference stereo and not just time-difference stereo, but it's a personal preference and how the caps response off axis. There is the stereophonic zoom chart that will help with determining that (take an indoor config with cards that you like, find it's value, then look at the subcard charts and find the new spacing/angle combinations for that value). It's floating around on this site somewhere, but Redding has a copy online too (look for the hypocardioid for the relevant entry).

On stage is a different question though, the recording angle is much wider so I can pull off a respectable (but not overdone) stereo image with as little as DIN (20cm/90*) or if it's a really wide angle (almost on either side of each cap sort of wide) then I've even dropped it down to 17cm/100* and gotten great results with subcards. I hover around that 19-22cm area and shy away from going over 23cm though, that starts to push and pull stuff too much IMHO and it sounds sort of unnatural. ymmv.

[F.O.Bean]

I don't really like to use the mk21's indoors for the most part. I feel like they end up picking up too much unwanted reverb from the room. If I do run them up close inside, I've found NOS works fine. On stage is a different story and ORTF wide has served me well.

Outdoor, open air recordings are where the 21's truly shine. I don't really hear much difference when using ORTF wide vs. NOS outside. I tend to run the ORTF wide if I'm really close and the NOS bar when a little bit further away. You really can't go wrong using the NOS bar with the 21's though.

I wouldn't expect you to, I've found spacing creates more of a difference then angle once I hit about 20cm and it's only 3cm difference between NOS and what we call a "wide ortf" (which is 27cm/110*). Anything past that and I'm getting more stereoness (for lack of a better term) with the time difference then I am with angle. I want the same approximate SRI/etc values so I use the 27cm/110* config outdoors more often as a result, but have used NOS before. The benefit of NOS comes in that you get a better on-axis response with the stacks or whatevers going on onstage. I personally favor the wide angle to help with level-difference stereo and not just time-difference stereo, but it's a personal preference and how the caps response off axis. There is the stereophonic zoom chart that will help with determining that (take an indoor config with cards that you like, find it's value, then look at the subcard charts and find the new spacing/angle combinations for that value). It's floating around on this site somewhere, but Redding has a copy online too (look for the hypocardioid for the relevant entry).

On stage is a different question though, the recording angle is much wider so I can pull off a respectable (but not overdone) stereo image with as little as DIN (20cm/90*) or if it's a really wide angle (almost on either side of each cap sort of wide) then I've even dropped it down to 17cm/100* and gotten great results with subcards. I hover around that 19-22cm area and shy away from going over 23cm though, that starts to push and pull stuff too much IMHO and it sounds sort of unnatural. ymmv.

So what do you recommend when about 15-20' from stage FOB/DFC in doors and outdoors? Outdoors I'm usually a ill father back than that tho. But my regular taping haunt I'm about 15-20' from stage FOB/DFC

[page]

So what do you recommend when about 15-20' from stage FOB/DFC in doors and outdoors? Outdoors I'm usually a ill father back than that tho. But my regular taping haunt I'm about 15-20' from stage FOB/DFC

Unless I'm onstage, I won't run my subs indoors.

Outdoors, as long as you're in that sweet spot of 60 degrees for an angle between the stacks, I think you can get away with either 27cm/110 or 30cm/90 (nos), but the further back you are from the stacks (and the smaller that angle), the more I'd be inclined to run NOS for that on-axis response. It's a game time decision and it's also based on what you prefer for a sound for your stereo soundstage. I like more level differences (angle), others are quite content with time-delay differences (spacing).

[F.O.Bean]

So what do you recommend when about 15-20' from stage FOB/DFC in doors and outdoors? Outdoors I'm usually a ill father back than that tho. But my regular taping haunt I'm about 15-20' from stage FOB/DFC

Unless I'm onstage, I won't run my subs indoors.

Outdoors, as long as you're in that sweet spot of 60 degrees for an angle between the stacks, I think you can get away with either 27cm/110 or 30cm/90 (nos), but the further back you are from the stacks (and the smaller that angle), the more I'd be inclined to run NOS for that on-axis response. It's a game time decision and it's also based on what you prefer for a sound for youmr stereo soundstage. I like more level differences (angle), others are quite content with time-delay differences (spacing).

Thanks Page!

[tim in jersey]

NOS period!

^This.

[hi and lo]

How about running a single MK21 as a center channel and compliment to a near-coincident MK41 pair? I haven't used my MK21s all that much, but I can say that I have not really cared for them except when run onstage. Any further back and I'd simply opt for cards or hypers, so the thought of beefing up the 41s when run up-close with a center channel MK21 might be an interesting concept to experiment with.

[F.O.Bean]

How about running a single MK21 as a center channel and compliment to a near-coincident MK41 pair? I haven't used my MK21s all that much, but I can say that I have not really cared for them except when run onstage. Any further back and I'd simply opt for cards or hypers, so the thought of beefing up the 41s when run up-close with a center channel MK21 might be an interesting concept to experiment with.

I don't have a second kcy or preamp yet. I plan on using these a LOT up close where I regularly record. I hope I'm happier with them than you were hi/lo

[hi and lo]

How about running a single MK21 as a center channel and compliment to a near-coincident MK41 pair? I haven't used my MK21s all that much, but I can say that I have not really cared for them except when run onstage. Any further back and I'd simply opt for cards or hypers, so the thought of beefing up the 41s when run up-close with a center channel MK21 might be an interesting concept to experiment with.

I don't have a second kcy or preamp yet. I plan on using these a LOT up close where I regularly record. I hope I'm happier with them than you were hi/lo

I hope so too, I just find them to be too challenging and really lack versatilitity. The way I've always thought about MK21s is that from the right spot, there is no better sounding capsule on the planet (think Kimmock on-stage), but that the genuinely ideal opportunities we encounter to use them are rare, if ever. I did run them twice outdoors this year and thought I would have been happier with cards in both instances.

These capsules are a challenge!

[noahbickart]

run a single mk21 as the M in a MS array, and fix the angle to your precise liking in post....

[F.O.Bean]

Ran them stagelip last night, about 2' high, and it smokes. recorded the SBD for vocals and this is going to sound SICK

[One Cylinder]

....which configuation did you go with Bean?

Ran them stagelip last night, about 2' high, and it smokes. recorded the SBD for vocals and this is going to sound SICK

[F.O.Bean]

....which configuation did you go with Bean?

Ran them stagelip last night, about 2' high, and it smokes. recorded the SBD for vocals and this is going to sound SICK

Wanted to try out wideORTF but "stage" wasn't that wide, so I went with NOS the band is trying to get on the LMA so ill post a link when it gets live. The mk21s picked up the instruments very nicely and you can hear ANY crowd except a wee bit between songs. The SBD did the vocals nicely, and IMO, it came out very nicely. The band plays in shithole bars so that's why I'm super happy about it!