Topic: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?

[Jonas Karlsson]

Hi!

Been reading a lot of threads on the board, regarding different caps in different situations. Some say this and some say that.

Been taping since 1992 but it wasn't until 2006-07 I started to really focus on mics. Therefore I'm kind of used trying to get to a good spot to tape.

Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both (look me up at Dimeadozen as "jontebus"). I tend to always search for a good sounding spot in front of either of the PA's (left or right), but when using the cardioids I get a "thinner" sound and using the omni's I pick up too much crowdnoise. This means I spend more and more time in post trying to make the recordings sound more like a want them. Oh, I always STEALTH.

Therefore, I want to add a pair of Schoeps to my weapon of choice, and I would greatly appreciate any inputs of which capsule I should aim for.

I tape shows in smaller clubs (2-300 people) up to large hockeyarena's (8-10.000 in attendance) and I ALWAYS stand on the floor trying to get in line with the PA. Outside at festivals I tend to do the same. I get my mics at around 1.75 meters up, since I'm 1,82 meters tall, which avoids some crowd chatter - but not the clappers who clap over their heads.

I read the MK41's are great at longer distances, and crappy room acoustics etc - but that the MK4's are great at a good taping spot... I need a mic that will have good stereo image in my own setup (stealth, A+B).

Also, which capsule I should choose: is it a must to get hold of a "dead rat" or windstopper for use outdoors at a festival? Used the omni's this summer at a large Swedish Rock Festival and had no issues what so ever, but then again - I used the omni's....

Anything else you feel I should add to get answers or input - let me know!

Love to you all 

/Jonas "jontebus" Karlsson, Gothenburg, Sweden

[F.O.Bean]

I would go with the mk41 super cards if I were you. Especially if you're recording in small and large venues. If you can only afford one set of caps, I'd go with the super cards IMO. I have used them up fron FOB and in the OTS way back, and they ALWAYS sound great. Twoodruff even used them onstage last year and they sound killer from everywhere. And they will DEF cut down on chatter! They're my main capsules even since I've gotten my mk4s! The mk4s sound killer in a good spot, but the mk41 sound killer from just about everywhere. As always, YMMV

[page]

I would go with the mk41 super cards if I were you. Especially if you're recording in small and large venues. If you can only afford one set of caps, I'd go with the super cards IMO.

this

[sparkey]

I would go with the mk41 super cards if I were you. Especially if you're recording in small and large venues. If you can only afford one set of caps, I'd go with the super cards IMO.

this

me three

[achalsey]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

I have no experience with stealth and have never used Schoeps, so this response will be (mostly) just secondhand knowledge picked up from being around here for a few years, but my first reaction was: MK4.  Only reason is that a card pair should be a more forgiving when moving around.  How much though, is unknown to me.  If its pretty negligible, then disregard this comment.

From the two people I tape with most often, one (jbell) runs MK4 and the other (stustu) runs MK41 (when inside, which is often).  I generally grab a track from each to see how everyones recordings from the night sounded.  Personally, I can't tell much a difference between the 4 and 41.  Granted I do have a pretty limited playback (just beyer cans out of my macbook), so I'm not doing any really critically listening, but for how subtle the difference is on my end, I would go with the pattern that is easier to stealth with.

I know people fluff the hypers in general around here, but honestly I doubt there is any sort of legitimate difference in OP's situation.  Subtle, minutely tangible crowd rejection?  Maybe.  The question for stealthing I would ask: does the minor increase in rejection outweigh the sensitivity when moving your head?

[edtyre]

Personal opinion is that if you record in spaces where you need the directionality of a hypercardiod, then the mk41 can be a worthwhile addition.  But of you have a fair bit of control of your location at the venue, you don't need 41.  Generally, i think the mk4 is a better, warmer sounding capsule.

I'll agree with this ^^ After using both the 4's and 41's for years, i sold my 41's. I just stopped recording in bad sounding rooms from bad locations. I only record in a handful of venues where the 4's sound
great, no need for the 41's. This is me, others may disagree.

[F.O.Bean]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

I have no experience with stealth and have never used Schoeps, so this response will be (mostly) just secondhand knowledge picked up from being around here for a few years, but my first reaction was: MK4.  Only reason is that a card pair should be a more forgiving when moving around.  How much though, is unknown to me.  If its pretty negligible, then disregard this comment.

From the two people I tape with most often, one (jbell) runs MK4 and the other (stustu) runs MK41 (when inside, which is often).  I generally grab a track from each to see how everyones recordings from the night sounded.  Personally, I can't tell much a difference between the 4 and 41.  Granted I do have a pretty limited playback (just beyer cans out of my macbook), so I'm not doing any really critically listening, but for how subtle the difference is on my end, I would go with the pattern that is easier to stealth with.

I know people fluff the hypers in general around here, but honestly I doubt there is any sort of legitimate difference in OP's situation.  Subtle, minutely tangible crowd rejection?  Maybe.  The question for stealthing I would ask: does the minor increase in rejection outweigh the sensitivity when moving your head?

I agree about the subtle differences between the mk4/mk41. Tonedeaf runs a completely diff rig than me. He used to run mk4>psp2>ad2k>dr680 and I ran mk41>LB(OT)>m10 and even then, the differences were barely audible. Mine did have slightly less chatter, which I find VERY useful in small clubs where everyone is drunk and talking. And when your farther back in an arena, the mk41 is FAR superior IMO!

IMO, you really can't go wrong with either, as always, YMMV I would still go with the mk41s tho. And the mk41 is unlike ANY other super/hyper card IMO. It has a very full bottom end and silky smooth mids/highs? Most hypers sound somewhat thin. Well, the mk41 DOES NOT IMO!!!

[page]

From the two people I tape with most often, one (jbell) runs MK4 and the other (stustu) runs MK41 (when inside, which is often).

Here is why I fluff the 41 over the 4; rejection, but it's not rejection of talkers or bottle clinks or whatever, it's rejection of the sound off the back wall or to your sides. I don't like the reverb cavern of most venues with amplified music so I want as little of it as possible. I really thought about a set of the DPA shotguns for this reason; compared to cards, it doesn't really cut out the crowd noise (some, but not revolutionary), but it does cut out a lot of venue reverb which really cleaned up the tape and left a nice clear sound.

That and I don't think the schoeps 41 cap shares the same tendencies of other hyper caps in that it's a compromise between sound quality and rejection. I think it holds it's own there (but I don't think the 4 caps are particularly excellent on their own...)

[bombdiggity]

Here is why I fluff the 41 over the 4; rejection, but it's not rejection of talkers or bottle clinks or whatever, it's rejection of the sound off the back wall or to your sides. I don't like the reverb cavern of most venues with amplified music so I want as little of it as possible.

I'm totally with page on this element.  I don't have 41's but would be tempted if I wanted to record with Schoeps in totally uncontrolled settings. 

I'm not totally convinced Schoeps are the best mics for stealth (and I have listened to a lot of those recordings on them and own a pair).  If you have control over your location then they can be a great choice (leaving aside the issues of crowd behavior, venue characteristics/ambient sound/mix).  To me they are realistic to a fault which means if all is in your favor they're great, but if there are issues in the ambient sound you will hear those more clearly than from most other mics. 

Honestly I only use mine when I know what I'm getting into...  otherwise I run my SP-CMC-25's.  They are much more forgiving of the typical uncontrollable issues. 

For example I had my Schoeps with me for a fest last weekend and they never left their box.  The main stage was indoors and had a heavy echo/low end throb (massive subwoofers that were cranked up pretty high for my taste).  Given the character of the room it could have been worse but didn't sound like I would have wanted it mixed.  On the acoustic stage where I thought I would be using them I got a board patch and since there was a loud "hard music" stage close enough that there would have been considerable background bleed from it on any audience recording it just didn't seem suitable to run them at all.  Every time I felt tempted to try a set with them some screamo metal band would kick up... 

[stevetoney]

Unfortunately, in describing the situations in which you'll be taping, some of those I would say the MK4 is the better choice and in others the MK41.  You've described a scenario in which you need a one-size-fits all-capsule that doesn't exist...at least not when you've put forth the question in the context of 'should I get MK4 or MK41'.  For your taping needs, I think the best answer is to get both, but that's not what you asked. 

That said, for stealthing, unless you stack tape and the volume of the music drowns out the chatter of the audience, I don't think you can eliminate chatter with capsule selection, no matter whether you're using a 4 or a 41.  After all, what's the difference if you hear the chatter from the people in front of you or a few more people that are in front and beside you.  Chatter is chatter on a recording, no matter where it's coming from.  And lets face it...yes the 41 is nice and directional, but it still will pick up the chatter of the people that are standing to the side of you (although maybe the level of the chatter coming from the sides will be attenuated slightly).  Look at the polar plots, the 41's side rejection isn't absolute, so side chatter is still going to be heard when you're standing amoungst the talkers (not to mention that a 41 has a rear lobe that a 4 doesn't have, so rear facing chatter is an issue for the 41 if you're standing in the crowd).  That said, there can be a huge difference when the capsule is suspended up above the crowd, yes for sure the MK41 is effective at minimizing the chatter of the people that are 4 to 6 feet beneath the capsule location.  But standing in the amonst the chatter...not as much. 

So, I think the answer then falls back on Page's comment about reverb, room dynamics, and even more important WHERE YOU RECORD FROM in the room...but with the added point that your best capsule choice is dependent on where you do MOST of your taping.  Your answer really becomes quite simple then...at least to me.  If you record mainly in closed in rooms and especially rooms that sound reverb-y or where you have to stand back enough that the sound breaks up, then I think the best capsule for you is the mk41 since that's going to give you the most bang-for-buck for your single capsule choice.  If you record mostly in open spaces or rooms that sound really good wherever you are able to record from, or you're always able to stand in the best sounding location in the room, then go with MK4 for the same reason.

EDIT TO ADD:  About your windscreen question...it makes no difference, both 4's or 41's will require a screen when you're outdoors although I suppose your hat or whatever could be an effective screen depending on the material. 

[bluntforcetrauma]

i would go with the 41's since you have cards.

I usually tape with 3 rigs DPA 4023, DPA 4061 and Schopes CCM41 so I get a good idea of omni's hypers, and cards.  And I also just stealth.  So from the same spot i can get a good idea of the sound and after i get home i can listen to each and see what picked up what.  All 3 types do offer different sounds. It does matter what you actually like in reference to sound.  So if you could I would try to borrow a pair to record with? I dont know if that is possible.  IN addition, traveling all over the country to record you never know which mic would work best for the venue. Past concert run included Vegas; houston, texas; orlando, fl and clearwater, fl. I would go with what sounds good to you. my .2 cents

[sparkey]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

Up front, in back, where ever

[F.O.Bean]

^^^   In response to the previous three responses: even for stealthing?

Up front, in back, where ever

Exactly! Achalsey, dig up some of Robb aka Darktrains recordings from the past few yyears. He mainly ran mk4/mk41>CMRs/NBob Actives>Tinybox>M10 I just listened to his acoustic Soundgarden recording from earlier this year. Its really DOPEASS! Plus, if youre rolling with the mk41 steal&h style, you can aim them right at the stacks and pull some tasty stuff. Take it with a grain of salt tho, because I havent steal&hed since 1998 tho, because thats when I bought my 480>DMIC20 setup

[Jonas Karlsson]

Thanks for all the input guys!

I always try to find a good spot to tape from, and I've become very good at it - since I mostly tape in the same halls/arenas. We have only one place in my hometown with good acoustics really, therefore the MK41 would probably give me better results for the most part. Also I'd like to sit at some bigger shows (which I never do) - and also there the MK41 would be better.

If I travel to an unknown city to tape in the future, I don't have any idea of what the sound will be like there - and that is something I'd like to do more than I do now. So there is another fact that says MK41.

When stealthing I have a "natural" windscreen, of course, but using the MK41 will make it more sensitive for wind than my current CA14 omni, for instance. Perhaps getting a proper (small) windscreen for the capsule would help? Do I get the "original" windscreens from Schoeps (if they have any?) or do I turn to www.thewindcutter.com or something like that? Any tips?

/Jonas

[stevetoney]

^ I'm not familiar with the official Schoeps screens, so I can't help you there. 

In general, you need a screen even in a gentle breeze.  Foam screens such as the popular DPA0896 are good enough to cut a gentle breeze, but not once the wind kicks up very much.  Then you'll want something heftier.  The Big Ass Shure's are the most popular, but they're too big for stealth work.  Alot of people go with the lightweight DPA screens, then if the wind kicks up, they'll put a fur over the top of the foam screen...see Tim Brown's dead muppets in the retail section for examples.  The foam/fur combo works quite well in my experience, but again it can be a fairly hefty combo.  For stealth you might consider using a fur screen directly over the mics without the foam, since alot of the fur screens don't have an inner basket, so if they're inside your hat, they fur takes on whatever shape is inside the hat.