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Author Topic: How split do split omnis need to be?  (Read 21880 times)

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Offline lsd2525

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2014, 09:21:51 AM »
I might make a trip to Home Depot at lunch today looking for some parts to pretty this up a bit. Going to see Alejandro Escovedo tomorrow night and then leaving early Friday to go to Black Mountain for Hornsby, so if it ain't ready by tonight, it ain't ready lol. I just MacGyver'ed my ass off last night just to make sure I'd have something functional. 70" split for the omnis, X-Y on the 853s. Hoping to pull some heat.......Tent poles, pipe insulation, velcro......check. I'm just hoping that big-ass Shure stand is as wookie-proof as I think it is.........Oh yeah, got that 50,000 mha charger Monday, got it fully charged up. Will be interesting to see how good that thing works. You run your DR-60 plugged into the 1 amp or 2 amp USB port?
Mics: SKM184's; ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
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Offline hoppedup

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2014, 09:42:33 AM »
I've been using the 1 amp with no issues.
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Offline lsd2525

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2014, 09:53:44 AM »
Cool. Build quality on my box seems nice; just hoping it actually is a 50000 unit. If it is, should power the 60 till Chrismas lol. Got those omnis from Doodie this weekend. Hope to see him tomorrow for Alejandro. FWIW, if any of you ever need couch space for a Charlotte show, let me know......
Mics: SKM184's; ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2014, 09:59:06 AM »
I should to add a public service announcement as a reminder for everyone building elaborate super-cool erector-set contraptions to support wide spacings off a central stand-

When designing an implementing these setups, always aim to keep the profile of the rig as stealthy as possible.  When running them, set up in a location which won't block the view of everyone behind you.  Sometimes two stands, or clamping a microphone to another taper's stand is a better option than hoisting the equivalent of a highway bridge I-beam.


I'm editing technical instruction manuals today with lots of similar warnings and notes, and that mindset is spilling over here I suppose.  I did smile to myself this morning when adding explanatory instructions for "deadheading" a hydraulic system to purge trapped air.  :P
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2014, 10:06:19 AM »
...to split the omni's at 3 feet or so. Is 3 feet enough to even matter when you're 50 feet back from the stage? What kind of distance do you need to even call something a "split omni"?.

Since both omnis are going to pick up essentially the same sounds, the spacing is primarily going to affect the phase effects you hear in the playback. Spaced omnis can sound spacious due to the phase effects, but there'll be no real imaging.

I suggest that you consider mounting the two omnis on a Jecklin or Schneider Disk. The disk will preserve all the good features that omnis offer (extended and flat frequency response, resistance to wind and handling noise, off-axis pattern consistency) and also add good imaging cues.

Please see our Web site for more details about the two disks.

Len Moskowitz
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Offline ts

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2014, 12:00:54 PM »
Did anyone ever not space omnis at a distant and technically speaking what would the result be? My widest bar is only 12 inches. If I just pointed the caps straight out with no angle what would I get? :P

Offline Chuck

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2014, 12:07:49 PM »
Here's a recording I made with 8" A/B spaced omnis: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html#hwc2012-08-04
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2014, 12:10:49 PM »
Sorry Len, but I simply disagree on several counts.

First off, spaced omnis have a long history of making outstanding recordings both around here and in the professional classical world.  That record speaks for itself.  I needn't defend the technique.

Level based imaging isn't the only 'real' imaging.  It is different, more pin-point with less depth, and mix-pan like. Time of arrival imaging is more diffuse, but arguably far more 'real' in terms of the live music experience.  At a distance, pin-point imaging of a distant near-mono mixed PA is pretty much pointless.  And with the addition of the coincident pair in the center like we've been discussing recently in the thread, we get both types anyway.

Spaced omnis often provide valuable level difference information.  When used on stage close to the sound sources, significant level differences from to proximity of sources to one microphone or the other are produced.  One of the technique's advantages on-stage is that the 'sampling points' are spread out in space, and the recording is less likely to highlight whatever source happens to be closest to a near-spaced microphone pair (which can only be placed in one spot).  That's a different situation than from farther back in the audience outdoors, but even then there are important level differences.  In that situation with a wide spread of 6' (or more), I've found that very nearby audience noise sources will have a larger level difference between channels and a higher degree of decorellation than they do with near-spaced configurations.  On playback, the audience reaction and (hopefully minimal) distracted conversations tend to image diffusely off to one side or the other, rather than in the same position towards the center of the playback stage as the primary music sources.  I find that makes the audience noise much less distracting in the resulting recording even if it isn't lower in level.  It competes less with the music because of the way it images differently.

I've alreay stated why I don't think near-spaced baffled omnis are an optimal choice for recording outdoor performances at a big distance.  Of course it can be done, it's just not optimal.  I can garantee that near-spaced baffled omnis will also produce zero level difference from a distant stage source or PA anyway.  The level diffences the baffle introduces will only be produced for sources that lie outside the central region where both mics can 'see' the source without one or the other being blocked by the baffle.  Just looking at the physical geometry of the mics placed on either side of the baffle makes it pretty obvious that isn't going to happen from 50' away and level differences will only occur for resonably wide recording angles appropriate when the recording position is pretty close.  Perhaps the biggest sonic drawback in trying to use it at a distance is that the techique provides very little low frequency differentiation, which is something we can use to our advantage from farther back and can only be accomplished with large spacings.

I don't consider Jecklin or Scheider baffled omnis as split omnis configurations, but rather as near-spaced omni configurations.  They can make exellent recordings in appropriate situations, but recording from far back isn't one of them IME.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 07:40:06 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2014, 01:19:01 PM »
Did anyone ever not space omnis at a distant and technically speaking what would the result be? My widest bar is only 12 inches. If I just pointed the caps straight out with no angle what would I get? :P

It may sound great (or it may not  :P). People do that all the time because it's what they can manage with what they have. It may be nice and natural sounding due to the positive omni attributes Len mentioned (extended and flat frequency response, resistance to wind and handling noise, off-axis pattern consistency). If you point them directly outwards instead of ahead you basically have the Healy technique which leverages a small bit of level difference at the highest frequencies from the inherent directionality of most real-world omnis.  It probably won't sound very spacious with wide imaging that fills the audio playback scene though.

In technical terms, you’ll get a recording that is more or less monophonic for the lower half of the audible frequency spectrum, with acoustic comb-filtering effects coming into play above that range. 

Adjusting the distance of the spacing re-tunes the comb-filter interaction and you'll hear that response difference as a sort of eq boost/cut sweep at higher frequencies if you were to listen as the narrow spacing distance is being changed.  The greater the spacing, the lower in frequency that comb-filtering begins to takes place and at the highest frequencies it becomes so complex that it is no longer heard as a sort of eq boost/cut but as random diffuse phase differences (the spaced omni 'air' and 'openness').  The acoustic comb-filtering is not 'bad' in itself, it is part of 'the sound' of near-spaced microphones and how they work.  This type of acoustic comb filtering is far more complex than the electrical comb-filtering of two mixed signals and varies with the angle of arrival of the sounds to the microphone pair.

For sounds arriving from far enough off-axis to have the right amount of phase difference between them to comb at high frequencies, a baffle creates enough level difference to limit the combing and some of it’s effects.  Sounds arriving on the medial plane (directly in front, above, behind) don't comb with or without a baffle because the arrival times (and phase) of the signals are identical at the two microphones.  The lack of random phase interaction at the highest frequencies for sources off the medial plane is probably what reduces the perception of ‘air’ up top in a J-disk recordings and why they’ll often benefit from more high frequency eq boost than spaced omni recording made from the same location.

I recommend anyone who wants to really get a feeling for what this sounds like to put on some well isolating headphones or IEMs and listen while changing the microphone spacing.  Even if that means just holding one omni in your hand up next to one mounted on the stand and listening while you move them together and farther apart (during sound check, while the opening band plays, listening to the FOH music or whatever).  You'll quickly get a much more valuable seat of the pants feel (errr, lobe of the ear understanding?) for this stuff which you won't get from us talking abstractly about it here for days on end.. although I'll probably do that anyway.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 07:46:04 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2014, 01:22:06 PM »
I was digging through some old recordings last night, and found what I think is a nice example of a wide-spaced omni recording I did several years back.  Please keep in mind that this is before I found this forum, which means it was before I really knew what I was doing. ;D  It's a middle-school concert band occupying the full width of about a 30'-40' stage.  Mics were set in the first row of house seats, about 20' or so from the stage, and on stands about 10' up.  They were spaced all the way to the extreme left and right of the center seating area for visual purposes, making them way too wide by normal standards - I think at least 25' apart.  I still think it sounds pretty great though.  Please also excuse the obvious limiter squashing in a couple places.  I would like to point out though that mics used (Naiant X-Q omnis) only cost me about $65 for the pair at the time, but I think they hold up against some far more expensive choices.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/khd7fbct9d5ogqh/AAAwddYHrQT1rRLD33-DGRyca

Regarding the level-difference discussion, tools and graphs like the one linked below show NO level-difference information for omnis of any spacing, just time-arrival information.  Click on AB60, AB90, AB120 and you'll see what I mean.  In practice, I have to agree with Gutbucket that this doesn't tell the whole story, especially when you are dealing with musicians located in different places.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2014, 01:31:56 PM »
Here's the practical take away of the technial stuff I posted above-

When the omni spacing is relativley narrow, slight differences in spacing distance have relatively large sonic effects upon the mid and upper frequency range.  The "critically-spaced omni" Oade Dead AUD's from the 80's sound great for a number of reasons but the key phrase, "critically-spaced" isn't meaningless but.. largely critical to the result.

When the omni spacing is wider, like around 2-4' the obvious sonic effects of adusting spacing tend to manifest in the lower-mid and bass range.

There is other stuff going on too but those timbral effects are the most obvious things I hear when adjusting omni spacing while listening.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 07:49:04 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2014, 01:54:12 PM »
Regarding the level-difference discussion, tools and graphs like the one linked below show NO level-difference information for omnis of any spacing, just time-arrival information.  Click on AB60, AB90, AB120 and you'll see what I mean.  In practice, I have to agree with Gutbucket that this doesn't tell the whole story, especially when you are dealing with musicians located in different places.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/SRAflash.swf

Level differences only come into play for sources significantly closer to one microphone than the other, such as when used on-stage close to the sources, or for the audience immediately adjacent to the microphones from a distance.  Sengiel's visualization applet doesn't model those situations.

The microphones in your example were outside of the 'critical-distance' from the concert band in the hall, which means the largest portion of sound being picked up is indirect room sound rather than direct from each source.  So even the musicians well off to one side or the other will produce similar levels at each microphone.

However, getting back to the imaging thing, there is probably a lot more going on imaging wise in that recording than just "phase effects".  Even though the levels are the same, the microphone on one side will record different sounding versions of the instuments close and more distant to it than the microphone on the other side- primarily differences in timbre and reverberant depth which contribute strongly to a sense of imaging in the sonic scene on playback.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline jefflester

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2014, 05:26:22 PM »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2014, 11:29:08 PM »
Just made time to listen to some of the sample links in the thread tonight. 

Chuck, those Audix Micro omnis sound nice, I haven't heard much from those before.  That 24"@RR Further recording is a really enjoyable AUD, nice job.  The 8" one you posted above is a good example of the same microphones sounding quite similar in many ways despite the very different recording scenario but with a much more monophonic presentation from the narrow spacing.  With that spacing, I think that one that would benefit from a baffle in the middle.  Great examples.

voltronic, quite enjoyable recording with that super-wide 25' spread too. I do hear a 'hole in the middle' which could be fixed either by placing the mics closer together, which I understand couldn't be done, or by leaving them where they were and putting a third one in the middle even if it couldn't be anywhere close to the same height, down beneath the audience line of sight. Personally the errors of over-wide usually bother me less when listening than those of over-narrow but I'm sure that's a subjective thing.

There are definite level differences happening between channels apparent by watching the level meters, or by muting one channel or the other during the same passage and hearing not only the difference in level for the instruments off to one side or the other, but also large difference in timbre and reverb, none of which have anything to do with 'phase effects' substituting for 'real imaging'.


lsd2525, way to rig it up man. That should do just fine. Please let me know how it goes!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Chuck

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Re: How split do split omnis need to be?
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2014, 08:12:04 AM »
Just made time to listen to some of the sample links in the thread tonight. 

Chuck, those Audix Micro omnis sound nice, I haven't heard much from those before.  That 24"@RR Further recording is a really enjoyable AUD, nice job.  The 8" one you posted above is a good example of the same microphones sounding quite similar in many ways despite the very different recording scenario but with a much more monophonic presentation from the narrow spacing.  With that spacing, I think that one that would benefit from a baffle in the middle.  Great examples.

voltronic, quite enjoyable recording with that super-wide 25' spread too. I do hear a 'hole in the middle' which could be fixed either by placing the mics closer together, which I understand couldn't be done, or by leaving them where they were and putting a third one in the middle even if it couldn't be anywhere close to the same height, down beneath the audience line of sight. Personally the errors of over-wide usually bother me less when listening than those of over-narrow but I'm sure that's a subjective thing.

Thanks Gutbucket. Yeah, I'm happy with those omni's. The 8" spacing was the first recording i made with them. I ended up deciding that 26" is the best compromise between sound and reasonable set-up, as I can carry a lightweight separator that size. Any longer than that becomes somewhat unwieldy for me to implement.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

 

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