Topic: C4's sound bright? Also DPAs

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I posted this earlier today on the SP team board but haven't heard anything.  I was hoping it might get some more exposure here.

I've been doing a little taping with my new C4's (SP-C4>MiniMe>USB Sony Vaio).

Most recently was the Umphrey's show at Bell's.   The mics have really only taped one loud shower prior to UM so they are very new.  I setup DIN FOB about 8' up with the card caps.   There is a DPA 4023>V3 (ORTF)>D8 seed of this show on etree that was made within 12" from my rig.

I've been having some fun comparing the C4s to those DPAs and trying to pick apart the differences.  Nevermind that the DPAs cost 10 times as much.  For comparison, my show was dithered from 24 bits to 16 with Cool Edit and UV22HR.

These comments are based on listening with Sennheiser HD280s and Linn SARAs.  Non-normalized levels were very comparable to begin with but I did normalize to reduce any volume induced bias.

Initial impressions:

The C4's are bright.  Especially with vocals.  In some cases they seem too bright.  In other cases, they seem to provide clearer detail than the DPAs.  I cannot listen to the C4 version at same volume level as the DPA because the brightness is just too much.

The DPA version has Much fatter bass. Not sure which is accurate here but I'm guessing the DPAs. Not sure if I'd say the DPA bass is muddy.  It shakes my floor, the C4 does not.

Audience noise rejection seemed comparable, though I did not check it with specific quiet passages.

A couple of nights ago, I mic'd my SARAs in DIN from about 5 feet away to compare the C4's to some SP-CMC4's and some newly acquired DPA 4061's.  Source material was Michael Hedges Live on the Double Planet.  The DPA bass was amazing. My impression of the C4 brightness was the same.  Crank up the DPA version and it gets Loud. Crank up the C4 version and the brightness becomes too much.

I'm being critical here asking these $300 mics to compete with $3K.  They're close.

Is some brightness typical with the C4s?  Should I expect the brightness to diminish with break-in?  Anything I can do to tame this brightness with setup, etc?

I'm recording The Headhunters on Thursday at the Blind Pig and I'm leaning towards using the small DPAs (which kinda blows my mind).  It is a small venue and I hope to be on a stand FOB.  I'm hoping to head down there tonight and tape a free band with both pairs of mics.

Thanks!

[Nick Graham]

Well, the MME you're running behind them should take the brightness down a notch anyway.

If they're as bright as you say, I'd hate to hear 'em in front of a V3!

[KingReptile]

I dont feel on there best day those C-4s could touch those 4061's or 4060's those are the best little mic...

[jimmc]

I run:  C4's (usually cards, DIN) > Digi-mod UA-5 > optical-in JB3 and I dont think my recordings are overly bright.  I've actually noticed more of a bass rumble than brightness.
Just my $0.02.
Everyones ear is different though.  Still for the price, I love my C4's.
Jim

[Busman Audio]

This is a very informative thread thank you all. A +T to you all for the nice comparisons and general opinions of these mics.

I think those C4s might sound better with a w-mod UA5 behind them.

[Chuck]

I ran C4's>Mini-Me for a while and thought it was a warm combination. I certainly would not say that the C4's are bright sounding microphones. I ran MBHO's for a while... Now, those are bright mics.
I have never run the DPA's, but I do know they are a more 'natural' sounding microphone.

Is it possible you had the high pass filter (on the mics) on when running the C4's?

[Ray76]

def. not bright, imho. warm more like it , no matter which pre ive used.
samples of a show i taped using

c4s>wmodua5>jb3 are here

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=24571

Ray

[jimmc]

This is a very informative thread thank you all. A +T to you all for the nice comparisons and general opinions of these mics.

I think those C4s might sound better with a w-mod UA5 behind them.

Here is a nice way to see what you think sounds best w/ the C4s as far as moded UA-5's go.
http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/rig_list.html

Personally, I liked the p-mod the best, but its all in the ear of the listener.
Jim

[marc0789]

I posted this earlier today on the SP team board but haven't heard anything.  I was hoping it might get some more exposure here.

I've been doing a little taping with my new C4's (SP-C4>MiniMe>USB Sony Vaio).

Most recently was the Umphrey's show at Bell's.   The mics have really only taped one loud shower prior to UM so they are very new.  I setup DIN FOB about 8' up with the card caps.   There is a DPA 4023>V3 (ORTF)>D8 seed of this show on etree that was made within 12" from my rig.

I've been having some fun comparing the C4s to those DPAs and trying to pick apart the differences.  Nevermind that the DPAs cost 10 times as much.  For comparison, my show was dithered from 24 bits to 16 with Cool Edit and UV22HR.

These comments are based on listening with Sennheiser HD280s and Linn SARAs.  Non-normalized levels were very comparable to begin with but I did normalize to reduce any volume induced bias.

Initial impressions:

The C4's are bright.  Especially with vocals.  In some cases they seem too bright.  In other cases, they seem to provide clearer detail than the DPAs.  I cannot listen to the C4 version at same volume level as the DPA because the brightness is just too much.

The DPA version has Much fatter bass. Not sure which is accurate here but I'm guessing the DPAs. Not sure if I'd say the DPA bass is muddy.  It shakes my floor, the C4 does not.

Audience noise rejection seemed comparable, though I did not check it with specific quiet passages.

A couple of nights ago, I mic'd my SARAs in DIN from about 5 feet away to compare the C4's to some SP-CMC4's and some newly acquired DPA 4061's.  Source material was Michael Hedges Live on the Double Planet.  The DPA bass was amazing. My impression of the C4 brightness was the same.  Crank up the DPA version and it gets Loud. Crank up the C4 version and the brightness becomes too much.

I'm being critical here asking these $300 mics to compete with $3K.  They're close.

Is some brightness typical with the C4s?  Should I expect the brightness to diminish with break-in?  Anything I can do to tame this brightness with setup, etc?

I'm recording The Headhunters on Thursday at the Blind Pig and I'm leaning towards using the small DPAs (which kinda blows my mind).  It is a small venue and I hope to be on a stand FOB.  I'm hoping to head down there tonight and tape a free band with both pairs of mics.

Thanks!

no way you can accurately compare c4>mme to 4023>v3. no way. and if the c4 sound that bright into a mme, they'd be about unbearable into a v3, imo. and no they're not "close". imho.

[BC]

also don't forget mic config can have a big influence on the recording's tonal balance. If the DPA's were run true ORTF and you ran your C4's in a narrower config (pointing more directly towards the stacks), this will accentuate the high end on the C4 tape.

[marc0789]

also don't forget mic config can have a big influence on the recording's tonal balance. If the DPA's were run true ORTF and you ran your C4's in a narrower config (pointing more directly towards the stacks), this will accentuate the high end on the C4 tape.

and bring out lotsa bass in the 4023 tape, if true ortf.

[marc0789]

but don't get me wrong. these are fine, fine mics, particularly for the price and accessories included. I have lotsa o-dog tapes and they're all solid to very good.

[plucks]

hows the detail in the DPAs comared to your C4s...
No doubt the bass would be tighter & the highs not so harsh in the 4022s compared to the C4s.  Thats part of the reason they cost so much.

As it has been said tough to do a true comparison of mics unless the pre/ad's are the same....it helps get a good idea tho no doubt about it!!

Frenchy--i love those 4052s!!!

[jason]

Hey Freelunch! That was me taping next to you at bells.  For clarification, I did run the 4023's in true ORTF, using the ORTF/XY bar.
From what I could remember at the show, it was extremely bassy, and I anticipated that, initially wanting to run XY to reduce the boomyness, but it was windy that night and the windscreens don't fit in XY, so I ran ORTF anyway. 

To my surprise, as bassy as the sound was when we were there, the recording is not nearly as muddy or boomy as I thought it would be.  The bottom end is actually quite a bit clearer than I remember it.

I don't think you can compare the two recordings though. The MMe is different from the V3, based on the few comparisons I've done when I've run the dpas straight into a mme (which I don't like).  If you had a V2 in front of the MMe, it'd be a bit closer, but even still, that little bit of warmth the mme brings to recordings cannot be compared to the transparency of a lunatec..imo.

Anyway, nice meeting ya that night. I'll never forget the massive pile of empty beer cups, guardian of the taperless tapers section ;o)

Jason

[Evil Taper]

If you have 4061s get within 10 feet of the stage if possible.  Too close and you might miss the vocal throw at some clubs so watch out.  I can't say I have any complaint about the DPAs except that the omni effect can suck it a car   The bass is always FAT and CLEAN, even if it sounds like shit in the venue.  Try the jecklin disc also, it works fabulously with those mics, think pinpoint spacial information while listening with phones.  +T to me for fluffing my mics once:D

[Ray76]

If you have 4061s get within 10 feet of the stage if possible.  Too close and you might miss the vocal throw at some clubs so watch out.  I can't say I have any complaint about the DPAs except that the omni effect can suck it a car   The bass is always FAT and CLEAN, even if it sounds like shit in the venue.  Try the jecklin disc also, it works fabulously with those mics, think pinpoint spacial information while listening with phones.  +T to me for fluffing my mics once:D

theres your +T.

youll be -56 at the end of the day anyway, dickface.
 

[Evil Taper]

You know what man, I think that there's a couple of people who -T me every day just cuz they hate me.  I don't know who they are and I don't know why they do it...but they do.  Whatever though.  I try to be helpful to the people here when I can.  I'm evil so being on the negative side of the sprectrum isn't bad, it's good.

[Ray76]

You know what man, I think that there's a couple of people who -T me every day just cuz they hate me.  I don't know who they are and I don't know why they do it...but they do.  Whatever though.  I try to be helpful to the people here when I can.  I'm evil so being on the negative side of the sprectrum isn't bad, it's good.

it doesnt matter man.
youre alright by me.

Ray

[Ray76]

I can't say I have any complaint about the DPAs except that the omni effect can suck it a car

en ingles por favor.


what is the omni effect that can suck it a car?

he said the omnis can suck in a car cuz of the big bass. not a bad thing. thats what i got out of it.
Ray

[Ray76]

I can't say I have any complaint about the DPAs except that the omni effect can suck it a car

en ingles por favor.


what is the omni effect that can suck it a car?

he said the omnis can suck in a car cuz of the big bass. not a bad thing. thats what i got out of it.
Ray

oh.
nevermind.
its just barely past 6am here, and coffee is still in the pot, and its not being slurped yet.

my truck has a cassette deck (and is rarely used), and the radio is usually tuned to KNX Newstalk 710 AM, which doesn't exhibit omni effect.

its all good. nothin like mornin mental fog.

Ray

[rocksuitcase]

Man, I have so many comments here I can't even quote all of you.
First of all, any TRUE mic comparisons need to be made with the same pre/recording rig.

freelunch, I DO understand your specific conditions and agree that any meaningful comparison is always good from a critical point of view.  I have never run either mics, so I will refrain from personal comments on the "tone" or "sound" of either mic.  I do feel that most of the comments to the effect it's hardly fair to compare the DPA's to the CP-4's are accurate.  I think it is generally agreed on that the MME should be "warmer" than a V-2 or V-3.  Let's not even get in to playback system colorations.

configuration and location can also be a definite cause of differing frequency response between two mic set ups.  I would agree from experience that true ORTF should have more bass response than an X-Y.  The X-Y may be more "focused" or "accurate". ( to some ears)

Any discussion of stereo micing techniques has to encompass the reality of our ears all differing in what we "prefer" to hear, so there is always room for discussion and differing preferences in this taping game, that's what makes it fun.

On the topic of the Jecklin disc: ( mini thread hijack)
Moke, please correct or forgive if this has been covered in your main thread.  
The main reason why it is an EXCELLENT way to record with omni capsules is that it brings the capsules physically close together on either side of the disc.  The baffle does it's job to split the signals to left and right and the physical closeness of the capsules brings them "in- phase" from an electro-acoustics point of view.  In the case of the Jecklin disc, "in-phase" means the difference of arrival times at each capsule is only related to left/right spatiality and NOT to large physical distances between the mics. ( just so any one that is not familiar with my use of the term "in-phase" I am not speaking of electrical phase such as speaker wires being "in-phase".  I am using the term in an acoustics sense, where 2 transducers that are aligned in the same plane in space are considered, "in-phase" ) ( mini thread hijack off)

I also see your quote below as a potential reason for thinking the C-4's are "bright" because you are hearing the mid-high bump in frequency response.

"The other big factor pointed out in the team SP thread is that the C4 cards are down about 7.5dB at 50 Hz and probably more at 40. They're also up 2dB on the mid-high."

I have had many car stereos blow bass speakers because of playback of live recordings.!  Most top level recording gear generally provides bass response far greater than the accepted RIAA bass levels that car stereos are designed for

Also what's wrong with a little Evil?  Go Team evil!  +T.

 

[rocksuitcase]

You are to be banished to the far right corner of the section.



Yes, you are exactly right.
xy is to cardioids, as baffled is to omni's.

The coincident arrival/capture also controls the bass, as the impulse is not extended in time relation as it is in spaced omni's, the microsecond spaced bass double whammy effect is avoided.

edit: fat fingers

He He.  First time I've ever been sent to the right, would be weird for this old lefty to hang there too long!

In my limited esperience with split omni ( late 80's, then again recently with kindms 414's) I hear this "spaced bass" whammy effect.  I think it is one of the things that most tapers like about spaced omni recording.  I also think it is artificial, not an entirely natural representation of the low freq's.  Jecklin disc or any other "coincident" omni seems cleaner, more natural.

[Ed.]

he said the omnis can suck in a car cuz of the big bass. not a bad thing. thats what i got out of it.

Ah.. I have the same problem with some lousy car stereos (like my truck). Recordings that sound great end up being a bass nightmare. I blame the stereo and not the rec.

i don't think my car stereo is really that bad, but whenever i play live discs in there it sounds like poo.  i think i have made like 3 recordings that sound good in my car.  i've messed with my amps, my eq's, etc, still can't get anything locked in that helps the sound.  so, i've given up and only listen to studio cds in the car.  kind of makes me sad.

[nic]

Ah.. I have the same problem with some lousy car stereos (like my truck).  Recordings that sound great end up being a bass nightmare.  I blame the stereo and not the rec.

vehicle interiors in general exibit a bass bump around 75-125hz.

[BC]

Ah.. I have the same problem with some lousy car stereos (like my truck).  Recordings that sound great end up being a bass nightmare.  I blame the stereo and not the rec.

vehicle interiors in general exibit a bass bump around 75-125hz.

I've found turning down the bass a bit in the car helps out a lot, reduces the load on my crappy stock car speakers and cleans things up quite a bit.

[Tim]

Ah.. I have the same problem with some lousy car stereos (like my truck).  Recordings that sound great end up being a bass nightmare.  I blame the stereo and not the rec.

vehicle interiors in general exibit a bass bump around 75-125hz.

I've found turning down the bass a bit in the car helps out a lot, reduces the load on my crappy stock car speakers and cleans things up quite a bit.

yep

there is just so much more low end information in one of our tapes than you'll find in any mastered studio disc

[creekfreak]

one of my John Brown Body recordings took out 2 friends car speakers...I was like...cool

[Evil Taper]

Wow I guess I should've reread my post there.  I meant to say that omni recordings can suck IN a car.  Why?  Well yeah all that creamy smooth bass that car stereos can't reproduce properly....but what I was more leaning towards was the directional sound information that gets fucked up by having a front and rear left and right speaker, so the louder of the 2 sets of speakers are going to overpower the other ones and attentuate the wrong frequency ranges sometimes.  You put on the headphones and it's gold...in the car it sounds like shit.  There is a solution though...turn the bass down and CRANK IT UP!

[marc0789]

face it....just about any aud *can* suck in a car. It's a car, for chrissakes.

[NJFunk]

I'm evil so being on the negative side of the sprectrum isn't bad, it's good.

LOL. -t.