Topic: AKG 460, mod 460, 480, comparison

[thegreatgumbino]

Anyone seen the 460's with horizontal switches?

+T for the pic, tfrench!  I've never seen one of the bodies with the 3 horizontal switches.  FYI, JW told me that if you want to go the JW mod route on the 460's he prefers to do it on the mics with one vertical switch and not the 3 horizontal.  AKG made the change some time around serial #9,000 from what JW told me.  I don't know for sure if he can still do the JW mod on the one's with 3 switches or not, just remember him urging me to find ones with the one vertical switch.

[JAH]

I can say this about the 460mod Vs the 480...Both hydropanic and I ran mod 461>mme and 481>mme for the Brothers in Nissan....A quick test on the ride home resulted in the mod 460's being more open...maybe almost brighter...I need to get his copy and do a real listen...but we both had the same preception.  The sound is definately different. Both sounded good.

peace
jah

[tfrench]

+T for the pic, tfrench!  I've never seen one of the bodies with the 3 horizontal switches.  FYI, JW told me that if you want to go the JW mod route on the 460's he prefers to do it on the mics with one vertical switch and not the 3 horizontal.  AKG made the change some time around serial #9,000 from what JW told me.  I don't know for sure if he can still do the JW mod on the one's with 3 switches or not, just remember him urging me to find ones with the one vertical switch.

Thanks for that information ........... I emailed AKG about the 3 horizontal switches to see what they had to say.  The JW question was next on my list....+T to you!

[EA]

How do you tell the difference between the 3 caps? I have 3 ck1x caps, at least I think they are all x caps. 2 have the same shape(cone) and one is more of a funnel shape. None of them have any markings, other than ck1 and  one has a 4 digit serial #. That would be a bummer if I'm recording with one x and one s cap.

edit. after looking at the AKG website archive, looks like I have 3 CK1x caps, one being a slightly different shape, as like the one in the picture archive.

Are you sure you don't have just regular ck1 caps that have the adaptor to make 'em fit 460's? The adaptors would make them rather "cone shaped".

[d5]

I don't think that the mod 460's and the 480's sound anything alike. Not one better than the other...just different sounds. Two different animals really. Everyone insists on trying to compare them though. But the mod 460's are far superior to stock 460's. No freakin' doubt. If you like transparent, super detailed mics (the "high speed sound"), the mod 460's are the way to go. But not everyone likes that sound. It's like V3 Vs. Mme. Different sounds for different tastes.

I've never heard an A/B of mod 460's vs. 480's, so I can't comment. But I do agree with the above that mod 460's are transparent and detailed and this is a big improvement over the stock 460's. JW compared the mod to when your driving up a mountain and your ears pop. Another effect of the mod is extended bass response and when talking to JW about the mod, he stressed the need really good wind screens.

[goose]

I've read several posts where people think the ck6 series caps have better sound than the ckxx caps, albeit minimal difference when you gain the ability to run actives. Also read a few that say the active cables make the ckxx a bit brighter than with out the actives.

The problem is that there were 3 ck1 capsules. The ck1, ck1s and ck1x. Both the ck1 and ck1s have freq response curves available, but the only thing available about the ck1x is the technical data, which is different from the ck1. The ck1s definitely has a bump in the high end that AKG calls "presence" but no technical data available. I believe that all 3 capsules likely have subtle differences from each other and are definitely different from the ck61 not only in the response curves/technical data, but also that the ck1 caps are all FET whereas the ck61 is a true condenser cap. If anything, I would suspect that the ck1x cap sounds like the ck91 since it is also a FET cap. I think that the ck1s may be the one that people think of as bright, but without a curve on the ck1x, who knows? It would be great to AB all four, but like you said, it is darn hard to find the ck1x and ck1s caps.

Just for clarification, my AKG documentation for the ck1x caps show that they are a true condenser, NOT a FET capsule.

[JAH]

I've read several posts where people think the ck6 series caps have better sound than the ckxx caps, albeit minimal difference when you gain the ability to run actives. Also read a few that say the active cables make the ckxx a bit brighter than with out the actives.

The problem is that there were 3 ck1 capsules. The ck1, ck1s and ck1x. Both the ck1 and ck1s have freq response curves available, but the only thing available about the ck1x is the technical data, which is different from the ck1. The ck1s definitely has a bump in the high end that AKG calls "presence" but no technical data available. I believe that all 3 capsules likely have subtle differences from each other and are definitely different from the ck61 not only in the response curves/technical data, but also that the ck1 caps are all FET whereas the ck61 is a true condenser cap. If anything, I would suspect that the ck1x cap sounds like the ck91 since it is also a FET cap. I think that the ck1s may be the one that people think of as bright, but without a curve on the ck1x, who knows? It would be great to AB all four, but like you said, it is darn hard to find the ck1x and ck1s caps.

Just for clarification, my AKG documentation for the ck1x caps show that they are a true condenser, NOT a FET capsule.

perplexing...I'll have to look at my sheets on the ckx caps...as I really believe that they are FET caps as they need it to push it over the wire. I've bought parts for them too...  no big deal either way but i can check my papers this weekend cause my folder is at home.

peace
jah

[JAH]

just checked the file and it shows them as FET based...actualy there were 3 different configurations of fet boards..the orig, then one w/ RF decoupling caps and a drop down R (orig must have been too sensitive), then a third to correct the phase difference from when they switched from electret membrane to back electret technique.

another bit of useless knowledge 

peace
jah

[ts]

I don't think that the mod 460's and the 480's sound anything alike. Not one better than the other...just different sounds. Two different animals really. Everyone insists on trying to compare them though. But the mod 460's are far superior to stock 460's. No freakin' doubt. If you like transparent, super detailed mics (the "high speed sound"), the mod 460's are the way to go. But not everyone likes that sound. It's like V3 Vs. Mme. Different sounds for different tastes.

I've never heard an A/B of mod 460's vs. 480's, so I can't comment. But I do agree with the above that mod 460's are transparent and detailed and this is a big improvement over the stock 460's. JW compared the mod to when your driving up a mountain and your ears pop. Another effect of the mod is extended bass response and when talking to JW about the mod, he stressed the need really good wind screens.

Iv'e only used my modded 460's once, but the ear popping thing is a pretty good, straight forward description. What about his windscreen comment? Could you elaborate on that a bit? Good beefy screens just attenuate the highs even more. Is he saying that the mod can make them a tad bright and that "good screens" will compensate for it. After one use(large DPA screens on CK1x caps) I didn't think they were bright enough. Just my opinion.

Tony

[d5]

I don't think that the mod 460's and the 480's sound anything alike. Not one better than the other...just different sounds. Two different animals really. Everyone insists on trying to compare them though. But the mod 460's are far superior to stock 460's. No freakin' doubt. If you like transparent, super detailed mics (the "high speed sound"), the mod 460's are the way to go. But not everyone likes that sound. It's like V3 Vs. Mme. Different sounds for different tastes.

I've never heard an A/B of mod 460's vs. 480's, so I can't comment. But I do agree with the above that mod 460's are transparent and detailed and this is a big improvement over the stock 460's. JW compared the mod to when your driving up a mountain and your ears pop. Another effect of the mod is extended bass response and when talking to JW about the mod, he stressed the need really good wind screens.

Iv'e only used my modded 460's once, but the ear popping thing is a pretty good, straight forward description. What about his windscreen comment? Could you elaborate on that a bit? Good beefy screens just attenuate the highs even more. Is he saying that the mod can make them a tad bright and that "good screens" will compensate for it. After one use(large DPA screens on CK1x caps) I didn't think they were bright enough. Just my opinion.

Tony

The comment wasn't directed at the high end response, but instead it was meant when using the mic's outdoors... I should have been clearer.  There is a high level of low-frequency energy in wind noise and the mod considerably extends the bass response. This makes the need for good windscreens more important when using the mic's outdoors.

[ts]

I don't think that the mod 460's and the 480's sound anything alike. Not one better than the other...just different sounds. Two different animals really. Everyone insists on trying to compare them though. But the mod 460's are far superior to stock 460's. No freakin' doubt. If you like transparent, super detailed mics (the "high speed sound"), the mod 460's are the way to go. But not everyone likes that sound. It's like V3 Vs. Mme. Different sounds for different tastes.

I've never heard an A/B of mod 460's vs. 480's, so I can't comment. But I do agree with the above that mod 460's are transparent and detailed and this is a big improvement over the stock 460's. JW compared the mod to when your driving up a mountain and your ears pop. Another effect of the mod is extended bass response and when talking to JW about the mod, he stressed the need really good wind screens.

Iv'e only used my modded 460's once, but the ear popping thing is a pretty good, straight forward description. What about his windscreen comment? Could you elaborate on that a bit? Good beefy screens just attenuate the highs even more. Is he saying that the mod can make them a tad bright and that "good screens" will compensate for it. After one use(large DPA screens on CK1x caps) I didn't think they were bright enough. Just my opinion.

Tony

The comment wasn't directed at the high end response, but instead it was meant when using the mic's outdoors... I should have been clearer.  There is a high level of low-frequency energy in wind noise and the mod considerably extends the bass response. This makes the need for good windscreens more important when using the mic's outdoors.

No, you didn't need to be clearer. I didn't read your post closely enough, more focused on the ear popping remark. You did mention bass response and wind screen in the same sentence. My bad.

[d5]

Another funny remark by JW... took me a little time to find this one on rec.audio.pro

The AKG 460 will respond down to a few hertz once the output
transformer is removed. Air blasts pick up quite well. If you have a DC
or 2 hz response of the playback system, you can watch the woofers pump
in and out as you move the mic forwards and backwards.

Makes for really tight and deep bass, just watch out for wind! (And
subways)

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.pro/browse_thread/thread/6a0c07bd109e1271/c37678d82cd86465?lnk=st&q=jim+williams+akg+460&rnum=8&hl=en#c37678d82cd86465

[goose]

just checked the file and it shows them as FET based...actualy there were 3 different configurations of fet boards..the orig, then one w/ RF decoupling caps and a drop down R (orig must have been too sensitive), then a third to correct the phase difference from when they switched from electret membrane to back electret technique.

another bit of useless knowledge

peace
jah

The "User Instructions" that came with my CK1X capsules read: "Permanently charged condenser capsule design in well-proven CMS technology."  It also has the polar response grids and the technical data for the capsules.  If you don't have one already, it may be good info for your file.

I don't see any reference to FET in the booklet, but then again, I don't understand that stuff very well.

[JAH]

just checked the file and it shows them as FET based...actualy there were 3 different configurations of fet boards..the orig, then one w/ RF decoupling caps and a drop down R (orig must have been too sensitive), then a third to correct the phase difference from when they switched from electret membrane to back electret technique.

another bit of useless knowledge

peace
jah

The "User Instructions" that came with my CK1X capsules read: "Permanently charged condenser capsule design in well-proven CMS technology."  It also has the polar response grids and the technical data for the capsules.  If you don't have one already, it may be good info for your file.

I don't see any reference to FET in the booklet, but then again, I don't understand that stuff very well.

Permanetly charged???  No Idea what that means or what cms is as long as you like 'em that's what counts 

[bluegrass_brad]

just checked the file and it shows them as FET based...actualy there were 3 different configurations of fet boards..the orig, then one w/ RF decoupling caps and a drop down R (orig must have been too sensitive), then a third to correct the phase difference from when they switched from electret membrane to back electret technique.

another bit of useless knowledge

peace
jah

The "User Instructions" that came with my CK1X capsules read: "Permanently charged condenser capsule design in well-proven CMS technology."  It also has the polar response grids and the technical data for the capsules.  If you don't have one already, it may be good info for your file.

I don't see any reference to FET in the booklet, but then again, I don't understand that stuff very well.

Permanetly charged???  No Idea what that means or what cms is as long as you like 'em that's what counts 

Permanantly charged is referring to the style of electret condensor.. ie. Permanantly Charged Back Electret. Instead of getting an electrical charge to the microphone capsule with phantom, these electret mics diaphragm's are made from a material that has a permanent electrical charge. You still need a body to act as a preamp and alot of these were run off battery (an example would be the NAK CM300's or the Senn ME).  So with the AKG's the active head is permantly charged and the 48v is really only operating the body. I got this info straight from AKG.  My understanding from the email that is the way they had to be. Something about the bodies not originally being made to support an active head.  I sent along a bunch of questions to them once (My main question was if they still serviced any of the active components, which unfortunately they no longer do).  But all P.C. Back electrets arent like the NAK and Senn (mid level mics).  They have some very quality ones as well, I found a website which enlightend me to the fact that a bunch of B&K mics were back electret, the Shure KSM32 is also back electret, The Crown CM700, also mics like the AKGC-1000 (which is more at the level of the NAK 300 and the Senn's).