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Offline kuuan

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spaced omnis placement confusion
« on: July 30, 2006, 11:58:29 PM »
just when I thought to have understood that spaced omnis are a prefered option if recording from minimal distance to the sound source, e.g. when possible to place them on stage, I ran across this:
Quote
Omnidirectional microphones and A-B Stereo are often the preferred choice when the distance between microphone and the sound source is large.
eehhh? ???
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2006, 10:34:02 PM »
spaced omni's kick ass on stage but usually only if you have a pair of cards in the middle and it's a full room.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2006, 12:06:42 AM »
I like Omni mics when I am recording acoustic stuff, but for amp'ed music I would personally never put a set of mics on stage, all you will get is a loud Guitar amp and cymbals, and if your real lucky a wee bit of vocal. But if you’re doing acoustic stuff it can be great to use Omni mics, or if your out front of the P.A in a good room omnis are great.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be ( EDIT OR TEDIT ) Umm three times the distance apart as they are from the source. Meaning if you are 5 feet away from the source you should be (TEDIT) Umm 15 feet apart from mic to mic. Or introduce a boundary ( jecklin disk ) between the mics and you will not be limited to the two to one ratio for placement to avoid phase cancellation. This rule applies to Omni mics Cardioid mics do not have to adhere to the two to one ratio that Omni mics do.


Chris Church


just when I thought to have understood that spaced omnis are a prefered option if recording from minimal distance to the sound source, e.g. when possible to place them on stage, I ran across this:
Quote
Omnidirectional microphones and A-B Stereo are often the preferred choice when the distance between microphone and the sound source is large.
eehhh? ???
quote taken from: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ /Microphone University/Stereo Techniques/A-B stereo

« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 01:46:17 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2006, 03:42:32 AM »
but for amp'ed music I would personally never put a set of mics on stage, all you will get is a loud Guitar amp and cymbals, and if your real lucky a wee bit of vocal.

While my experience mirrors Chris's with regards to weak vocals, I've not had the same experience getting only loud guitar amp and cymbals.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

I suspect this ratio originated for unamplified recording for orchestras and such, I'm not convinced it applies to on-stage recording of amplified performances.  I've found my mic placement depends on the layout of the band on stage, don't pay any attention to the 2:1 ratio, and have enjoyed the results.  In many cases, I couldn't physically use the 2:1 ratio even if I wanted to due to space restrictions.
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Offline kuuan

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2006, 07:18:13 AM »
thank you for the input.
I always have found confusing that on one hand the 2 to 1 ratio is recommended, but then again a spacing of just a few feet. It must depend on the situation, quality of sound source as you mention Brian. In the end I guess one has to experiment and find out oneself.
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2006, 08:46:42 AM »
a j-disc will be more consistent than spaced omnis. (there, I said it).

Teddy was fluffing Josephson C617s with 45cm (18") separation, I hve been using the C617s with various J-disky baffles.  I hope to try the spaced omnis next month, any other reports of good results with that small a separation?

Jeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2006, 08:58:23 AM »
a j-disc will be more consistent than spaced omnis. (there, I said it).

Teddy was fluffing Josephson C617s with 45cm (18") separation, I hve been using the C617s with various J-disky baffles.  I hope to try the spaced omnis next month, any other reports of good results with that small a separation?

Jeff

I've had decent results with narrow spaced omnis for on-stage recordings. Initially I was afraid the stereo image would be destroyed, but I think because of the very close proximity to the sound source a decent stereo image can still be achieved.

here is a sample... http://www.archive.org/details/tls2006-02-16.adktl.flac16

ps. one of the only problems that i am aware of with running omnis on-stage is that if the people in the front row are talking you will pick it up . The sample above shows that.


Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2006, 10:48:29 AM »
I guess you can not apply a (TEDIT) Umm 3:1 ratio on everything, my own Omni mics do not need to be spaced like that but, I have run into problems with spaced Omni mics not being spaced via the 3:1 rule. I guess the biggest thing about mic placement is that yes, there are some rules but they do not always apply to every situation. I have definitely, as I am sure we all have had Omni mics spaced closer then the 3:1 ratio and ended up with good sound. I should have said that in my original post, not everything is written in stone.

but for amp'ed music I would personally never put a set of mics on stage, all you will get is a loud Guitar amp and cymbals, and if your real lucky a wee bit of vocal.

While my experience mirrors Chris's with regards to weak vocals, I've not had the same experience getting only loud guitar amp and cymbals.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

I suspect this ratio originated for unamplified recording for orchestras and such, I'm not convinced it applies to on-stage recording of amplified performances.  I've found my mic placement depends on the layout of the band on stage, don't pay any attention to the 2:1 ratio, and have enjoyed the results.  In many cases, I couldn't physically use the 2:1 ratio even if I wanted to due to space restrictions.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 01:48:15 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: 2-1 rule
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2006, 12:19:57 PM »
Now,
   this is the first time I have ever heard about any 2:1 rule. I cannot fathom how in any way that would help in setting the distance between the mics making up an AB stereo pair.

In my mind I think we could scratch that 2:1 rule forever.

When recording symphone orchestras I very often use two omnis. They are placed far enough into the room to get the best balance between direct and ambient sound, to capture the right amount of room. The distance depends a lot on the acoustics of the room. Sometimes one omni pair will not be the best solution.

The distance between the mics is set to get as good stereo separation as needed. Too far apart and there will be a large hole in the middle of the stereo picture, too close and there will not be enough separation. In my experience the distance between the two mics goes between about 1 foot up to maybe 8. In my recordings I generally end up at about 1.5 foot.

One different technique usable on symfony orchestras is to use three omnis, rather closer to the stage than with an AB pair. One goes in the middle, the two others flank it about 1/3 and 2/3 of the width. The mics are panned left, mid, right and the volumes set to a pleasant mix.

This is of course not very relevant to stealth micing of rock, where most of the sound comes out of the PA speaker stacks and the room ambience is mostly seen as a nuisance. I think you could use omnis to good effect in that environment as well. I would put the two mics on a stereo bar about 2 foot apart and hoist it high up in the air, using a stand at least 12 foot high, preferably more, to get away from the audience chatter.

Gunnar

Offline JasonR

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2006, 12:35:26 PM »
Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

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Offline Shawn

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2006, 01:15:52 PM »
does anyone have a good example of the 'hole in the middle' effect? I have an idea of what I am listening for, but I'm curious if I'm listening for the right things.

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2006, 01:16:07 PM »
actually it is 3:1, not 2:1, Chris.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

- Jason

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2006, 01:29:56 PM »
does anyone have a good example of the 'hole in the middle' effect? I have an idea of what I am listening for, but I'm curious if I'm listening for the right things.

Check out any Fritz Reiner RCA recordings for very obvious examples.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2006, 01:44:08 PM »
Hey I said 3:1 not 2:1  :wink2:

actually it is 3:1, not 2:1, Chris.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2006, 01:47:46 PM »
Hey I said 3:1 not 2:1  :wink2:

actually it is 3:1, not 2:1, Chris.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

- Jason

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Just remember the two to one ratio
:P

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2006, 01:50:18 PM »
 ;D

you can, though, using spaced omnis , get a cool comb filtering so bad that it sounds like Galaga when you record a solo instrument... :)

Offline muj

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2006, 01:55:46 PM »
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.... nice one :-* :-* :-* :-*

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2006, 02:02:23 PM »
+T for catching that one Ted.


Hey I said 3:1 not 2:1  :wink2:

actually it is 3:1, not 2:1, Chris.

Just remember the two to one ratio, that Omni mics should be twice the distance apart as they are from the source.

That rule basically tells you to use AB spaced omnis only close to the sound source.  If you try to follow this rule at any significant distance, you'll have your mics out of the building, or if it's outdoors, you'll have a huge hole-in-the-center effect.

A more realistic rule might be the one from the New Stereo Soundbook that references keeping the spaced omnis apart by between 1/3 and 1/2 the width of the soundstage (ie: the PA in most cases).

- Jason

Quote from: Chris"amnesia"Church
Just remember the two to one ratio
:P
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2006, 02:34:04 PM »
I LOVE split omni's.  I would never go 3:1 though.  The widest I have gone was a 15' split and that was about 100' back.  Here is a pretty good example of that http://www.archive.org/details/ddbb2005-05-28.mbho.flac16 .  The soundstage is quite wide at a 15' split, and I actually like it but I don't think I would want to go any wider.  This was part of an 8 track multi/matrix but ddbb said no to posting the matrix.  The other recordings from the fest used the omni's in conjunction with board and 2 other pairs of mics on stage.  It was a nice treat being able to manipulate the image and kind of layer the soundstage.  I LOVE split omni's outdoors either alone or in a matrix.
     I have also used splits many times on stage.  The thing with stage placement of any config is you can get too much of some of the instruments and not enough of others.  When there are vocals don't bother, but for amplified jazz it is the shit IMO.  I did a 3 night series of Fareed Haque group last year and the first 2 nights I ran mono board + stage corner omni's + center-stage x/y.  The Tabla's player was set up center stage so I got way too much of him the first 2 nights.  It was a tight club and I didn't have a lot of option.  The third night was at a small outdoor stage and I ran split omni's at the lip and an ORTF pair from the audience.  That recording was much better.  I had a chance to listen to the other two from previous nights and noticed I was light on a few of the instruments, so I place the splits a little closer to instruments that I felt were light from previous nights and away from the tablas player!  When just going split on stage I usualy try to stay around 6-8 ft spread and just position the mics so I am away from direct sound sources.  Also, if possible I like to be centered on the drumset because I like to hear the placement of each cymbal and drum.  I guess the key to a good split omni stage recording IMHO is to think of each mic individually for what it will record, and try not to split them so far as to create that hole in the middle.  I would never go 15' spread on stage, but 6-10 is probably just fine depending on the spread and depth of the stage.
     I recorded fhg again a few months later and they set up after the opener.  Knowing the blunder I had made on the first two by using x/y I set up splits.  Turned out that the keyboard player wasn't there that night and the tablas player set up off to the side and was again to heavy in my mix!  Another nice perk of recording split omni's over a card/hyper config is that you get a little more crowd responce.  For a wild rock show this is not an advantage, but for an instrumental show this is often a big plus.  Getting crowd at appropriate times without a lot of room-boom is a nice thing to my ears.
     As for being too close, I once forgot to change the caps to cards for an x/y recording and did x/y omni's.  Surprisingly enough it was not a bad image!  It was far from what I got with splits but certainly not mono.  I recorded a multi/matrix using onstage x/y omni for the opener, and then split omni's for the headliner.  I can pull out just the mic tracks and do a comp if I can find the time in the next couple of days.  I think people here will be surprised.  I know I was.  That effor was with Brian Ska, and MattD at the Metro in Chicago for Goran Ivanovic Group and Andreas Kapsalis Trio.  Goran got the splits.  Actually my current avitar is from that show.

Matt
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Offline kuuan

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2006, 12:45:20 AM »
I am very happy that my question sparked this discussion, or rather disclosures of experienced tapers.
To me personally much of what is said is above my horizon as I am a beginner, but I try to assimilate and to study.
Certainly above all Moke also got me also interested in the Jecklin Disc. Here in hardware store they are selling solid rubber rectangular and also round pads, which I believe are sold to put underneath furniture or the like to prevent it from sliding or to absorb movement (?? - well, this is an earthquake prone country ) They are made of solid, heavy black rubber, come in various thinkness starting abt. 2mm untill 1 or 1,5 cm. Do you think this would make a good J-disc? ( if yes - o.k. I should research this, but why not ask at once: which diameter would you recommend? )
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2006, 04:16:31 PM »
Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2006, 06:00:05 PM »
Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar

I was gonna say!  Thanks for the proper clarification Gunnar.  +T

Matt
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2006, 06:06:22 PM »
i have never ran split omni's, but i do own a j-disc and ran it a few times last summer and loved the results, speaking of, i have to hit up grider and borrow his ck62's for a few months :)

as moke said, it gives a spaced feel w/ a LOT less hassle and i can never see myself splitting omni's too much PITA for me
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2006, 03:57:04 PM »
Actually RESPECTFULLY, you have it backwards phase cancellation happens when two mics pick up the same source at the same exact time and amplitude and frequency. The polar patterns overlap making this happen. This normally happens at one frequency like for example if I had two Omni mics on a single singer and he or she was hot at 2.5k I would need to apply the three * to one ratio to avoid phase cancellation and the peek frequency or dominant frequency.

Your scenario of the rule needing to be applied with two different sources would be almost impossible to get any kind of phase problem.  Hence the need to space mics with such open polar patterns (OMNI) in the first place. This is the reason why you never see a true stereo one point Omni mic; it would be a phase cancellation nightmare.

Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar
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Offline Chuck

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2006, 04:54:59 PM »
I almost have everything I need to start experimenting with J-Disc omni's and split omnis more. I wonder if the pan feature on recording software would be able to fix the hole in the middle thing if the mics are spaced too far apart. Specifically add a bit of the Left signal into the right channel and visa versa.

I have to say that Moke has been a real champion of omnis and baffled omnis in particuliar. I for one have paid attention and soon will be doing my own recording and experimenting. To me, no cardioid or hyper-cardioid has the same realistic representation of the way things really sound than omni's. For some this is not the goal, to have realistic representation. But, I always hear the compromise when listening to most two track live recordings made with anything other than omnis.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline pfife

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2006, 08:37:24 PM »
a successful split omni's recording, in an amplified situation, is going to depend greatly on the acoustics in the venue.  I've had good luck with it from balcony of a medium-sized club in detroit.  However, I've had less than stellar luck running them from a balcony of a local theater.  It's actually not much of a pain with DPA 406x's - in the smaller club I just taped them to the railing of the balcony, prolly 5' spread.  At the larger theater, I taped them to the lip of the balcony, about 6' spread. 

that being said, in general, jeklin is way easier, and in smaller venues (amplified sources) it gives me a might tighter sound, if that makes any sense.

Tickets are dead to me.  Except the ones I have, don't have, and lost.  Not to mention the ones you have, don't have, and lost.   And the ones that other dude has, doesn't have, and lost.  Let me know if you need some tickets, I'm happy to oblige. 

Tickets >>>>>>>> Oxygen

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2006, 12:45:54 PM »
Actually RESPECTFULLY, you have it backwards phase cancellation happens when two mics pick up the same source at the same exact time and amplitude and frequency. The polar patterns overlap making this happen. This normally happens at one frequency like for example if I had two Omni mics on a single singer and he or she was hot at 2.5k I would need to apply the three * to one ratio to avoid phase cancellation and the peek frequency or dominant frequency.

Your scenario of the rule needing to be applied with two different sources would be almost impossible to get any kind of phase problem.  Hence the need to space mics with such open polar patterns (OMNI) in the first place. This is the reason why you never see a true stereo one point Omni mic; it would be a phase cancellation nightmare.

Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar

Sorry Chris, but Gunnar is correct.  The 3:1 rule is for multiple mics on separate sources.  it is a multi-miking rule and does not apply to a single stereo pair. You are correct in noting that comb filtering is caused by the interference pattern of a single source, picked up by two mics and then summed again (either electronically or in air).  The 3:1 rule works by getting each source/mic pair far enough away from the next that any inevital bleed is or or less inconsequential for phase issues.  The rule has nothing to do with polar patterns other than more discriminating patterns can, by attenuation, help to reduce bleed and limit the comb filtering that the 3:1 rule aims to achive using distance.  The different path lengths between the source and the 3:1 separated mics proivides both attenuation and phase differences between the signals of all the mics that are picking up that souce, both intentionally (mic on that source) and unintentionally (bleed from other mics). 

It is physically impossible to apply the 3:1 rule to stereo micing, follow me here:

For stereo miking where some part of the source (say, the center of the stage) is equidistant from each mic, you cannot have more than a 2:1 ratio of source to mic vs. mic to mic distance.  The only geometry that would acheive a 2:1 ratio would be to put the mics in a line with the source on the midpoint of that line, centered between the mics.  As soon as you move the source away from the line the ratio drops. An equilateral triangle of source and mics would have a 1:1 ratio.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2006, 01:02:37 PM »
You are 100% incorrect The 3:1 rule does exist argue your point with GEFELL one of the most respected names in audio.
I have been a sound engineer for 20 years I know my mic techniques and not because I read them from a book because I have used them. This rule can be applyed to close micing and to distant micing BUT it is only a guidline I was only trying to say that this rule dose exist and it is used sometimes. The fact that someone says this rule does not exist does not make it so. Furthermore this rule does not always have to be used it depends on your situation.



Chris Church

Here is the url for the info I have posted. http://www.gefell-mics.com/stereo_mic_techniques.htm


Wide stereo
Set-up: Two directional or omnidirectional spread using the 3:1 rule
Primary use:  STEREO RECORDING OF ENSEMBLES AND ORCHESTRA'S
Stereo image: EXCELLENT
Center image: OKBest for: Working with the mid to far field
Advantage:   Better stereo imaging

Notes:
The wide stereo employs a 3:1 rule whereby the distance between mics is 3 times greater than the distance of the source. For large orchestra, an additional center mic is often used. This provides better stereo imaging but does not make for good mono compatibility.



Actually RESPECTFULLY, you have it backwards phase cancellation happens when two mics pick up the same source at the same exact time and amplitude and frequency. The polar patterns overlap making this happen. This normally happens at one frequency like for example if I had two Omni mics on a single singer and he or she was hot at 2.5k I would need to apply the three * to one ratio to avoid phase cancellation and the peek frequency or dominant frequency.

Your scenario of the rule needing to be applied with two different sources would be almost impossible to get any kind of phase problem.  Hence the need to space mics with such open polar patterns (OMNI) in the first place. This is the reason why you never see a true stereo one point Omni mic; it would be a phase cancellation nightmare.

Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar

Sorry Chris, but Gunnar is correct.  The 3:1 rule is for multiple mics on separate sources.  it is a multi-miking rule and does not apply to a single stereo pair. You are correct in noting that comb filtering is caused by the interference pattern of a single source, picked up by two mics and then summed again (either electronically or in air).  The 3:1 rule works by getting each source/mic pair far enough away from the next that any inevital bleed is or or less inconsequential for phase issues.  The rule has nothing to do with polar patterns other than more discriminating patterns can, by attenuation, help to reduce bleed and limit the comb filtering that the 3:1 rule aims to achive using distance.  The different path lengths between the source and the 3:1 separated mics proivides both attenuation and phase differences between the signals of all the mics that are picking up that souce, both intentionally (mic on that source) and unintentionally (bleed from other mics). 

It is physically impossible to apply the 3:1 rule to stereo micing, follow me here:

For stereo miking where some part of the source (say, the center of the stage) is equidistant from each mic, you cannot have more than a 2:1 ratio of source to mic vs. mic to mic distance.  The only geometry that would acheive a 2:1 ratio would be to put the mics in a line with the source on the midpoint of that line, centered between the mics.  As soon as you move the source away from the line the ratio drops. An equilateral triangle of source and mics would have a 1:1 ratio.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 01:20:47 PM by Church-Audio »
for warranty returns email me at
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RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2006, 01:16:42 PM »
I agree with Chris. It applies to both situations.

Gunnar was right on the fact that it applies to seperate sources, but was wrong about it not applying to stereo micing.


You are 100% incorrect The 3:1 rule does exist argue your point with GEFELL one of the most respected names in audio.
I have been a sound engineer for 20 years I know my mic techniques and not because I read them from a book because I have used them.

Chris Church

Here is the url for the info I have posted. http://www.gefell-mics.com/stereo_mic_techniques.htm


Wide stereo
Set-up: Two directional or omnidirectional spread using the 3:1 rule
Primary use:  STEREO RECORDING OF ENSEMBLES AND ORCHESTRA'S
Stereo image: EXCELLENT
Center image: OKBest for: Working with the mid to far field
Advantage:   Better stereo imaging

Notes:
The wide stereo employs a 3:1 rule whereby the distance between mics is 3 times greater than the distance of the source. For large orchestra, an additional center mic is often used. This provides better stereo imaging but does not make for good mono compatibility.



Actually RESPECTFULLY, you have it backwards phase cancellation happens when two mics pick up the same source at the same exact time and amplitude and frequency. The polar patterns overlap making this happen. This normally happens at one frequency like for example if I had two Omni mics on a single singer and he or she was hot at 2.5k I would need to apply the three * to one ratio to avoid phase cancellation and the peek frequency or dominant frequency.

Your scenario of the rule needing to be applied with two different sources would be almost impossible to get any kind of phase problem.  Hence the need to space mics with such open polar patterns (OMNI) in the first place. This is the reason why you never see a true stereo one point Omni mic; it would be a phase cancellation nightmare.

Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar

Sorry Chris, but Gunnar is correct.  The 3:1 rule is for multiple mics on separate sources.  it is a multi-miking rule and does not apply to a single stereo pair. You are correct in noting that comb filtering is caused by the interference pattern of a single source, picked up by two mics and then summed again (either electronically or in air).  The 3:1 rule works by getting each source/mic pair far enough away from the next that any inevital bleed is or or less inconsequential for phase issues.  The rule has nothing to do with polar patterns other than more discriminating patterns can, by attenuation, help to reduce bleed and limit the comb filtering that the 3:1 rule aims to achive using distance.  The different path lengths between the source and the 3:1 separated mics proivides both attenuation and phase differences between the signals of all the mics that are picking up that souce, both intentionally (mic on that source) and unintentionally (bleed from other mics). 

It is physically impossible to apply the 3:1 rule to stereo micing, follow me here:

For stereo miking where some part of the source (say, the center of the stage) is equidistant from each mic, you cannot have more than a 2:1 ratio of source to mic vs. mic to mic distance.  The only geometry that would acheive a 2:1 ratio would be to put the mics in a line with the source on the midpoint of that line, centered between the mics.  As soon as you move the source away from the line the ratio drops. An equilateral triangle of source and mics would have a 1:1 ratio.

Offline Chuck

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2006, 02:10:31 PM »
Maybe one of you omni gurus can answer a question:
DPA offers various "grids" to place in front of their omnis to alter the response of the microphone. For example, they have a diffuse-field grid that raises the response above 15 kHz when recording farther away. What's up with that? Can this be done for other microphones? How does this work? I think it would be great to have that option available on any omni, to tilt it's response up a bit when you run them farther back than you would like.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2006, 02:49:42 PM »
Maybe one of you omni gurus can answer a question:
DPA offers various "grids" to place in front of their omnis to alter the response of the microphone. For example, they have a diffuse-field grid that raises the response above 15 kHz when recording farther away. What's up with that? Can this be done for other microphones? How does this work? I think it would be great to have that option available on any omni, to tilt it's response up a bit when you run them farther back than you would like.

it is simply to offset the HF loss at longer distances. It works by way of Vents, changing the way the signal interacts with the diaphragm. The grids are not the only accessory, for the high end omnis like the 4006 and the ilk, there are also pressure balls that go around the head of the mic to boost on axis sources and attenuate off axis to give better "presence" and clarity to the recordings. The catalyst for the production of the pressure balls was I think an attempt by DPA to capture some of the directivity that the Neumann m50 omnis had. (the m50s were used by Decca for many years, and are considered the de facto standard for Decca Tree Micing..) Peter Drefahl makes similar attachments for schoeps omnis, and with the DPA 4060/4061, you could remove the grille and get a flatter response...it can be done with any mic...just a matter of physics and the manufacturer or user doing their homework to develop a solution.

  <<<<these come in 30, 40 and 50mm...the 50mm are what I own.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 02:51:42 PM by Teddy »

Offline Chuck

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2006, 03:14:13 PM »
Will those balls work with just any omni? That is, if you can fine one to fit the diameter of your mic?
I really like the idea, I just don't understand it that well.  :-\ Just by the looks of it, I'd tend to think the ball would attenuate any sound coming from the front of the capsule  ???
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2006, 03:24:58 PM »
Will those balls work with just any omni? That is, if you can fine one to fit the diameter of your mic?
I really like the idea, I just don't understand it that well.  :-\ Just by the looks of it, I'd tend to think the ball would attenuate any sound coming from the front of the capsule  ???

I would say so, yes. The balls use diffractions on the surface to modify the sound field around the diaphragm. the attenuation is off axis at sources above 1khz, and on axis, the lower frequencies are boosted.


Offline mmmatt

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2006, 03:29:24 PM »
Maybe one of you omni gurus can answer a question:
DPA offers various "grids" to place in front of their omnis to alter the response of the microphone. For example, they have a diffuse-field grid that raises the response above 15 kHz when recording farther away. What's up with that? Can this be done for other microphones? How does this work? I think it would be great to have that option available on any omni, to tilt it's response up a bit when you run them farther back than you would like.

it is simply to offset the HF loss at longer distances. It works by way of Vents, changing the way the signal interacts with the diaphragm. The grids are not the only accessory, for the high end omnis like the 4006 and the ilk, there are also pressure balls that go around the head of the mic to boost on axis sources and attenuate off axis to give better "presence" and clarity to the recordings. The catalyst for the production of the pressure balls was I think an attempt by DPA to capture some of the directivity that the Neumann m50 omnis had. (the m50s were used by Decca for many years, and are considered the de facto standard for Decca Tree Micing..) Peter Drefahl makes similar attachments for schoeps omnis, and with the DPA 4060/4061, you could remove the grille and get a flatter response...it can be done with any mic...just a matter of physics and the manufacturer or user doing their homework to develop a solution.

  <<<<these come in 30, 40 and 50mm...the 50mm are what I own.
looks like a $40 raquetball to me! 
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline Chuck

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2006, 03:34:19 PM »
... with a hole in it...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2006, 03:36:17 PM »
... with a hole in it...

Yeah, I wouldnt (and didnt) pay 100 bucks for it. I paid about 110 for all 3 of mine.

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2006, 03:39:54 PM »
... with a hole in it...

Yeah, I wouldnt (and didnt) pay 100 bucks for it. I paid about 110 for all 3 of mine.
what are they made of teddy?  are they rubber or hard plastic?

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2006, 03:42:18 PM »
these are made of hard plastic.

... with a hole in it...

Yeah, I wouldnt (and didnt) pay 100 bucks for it. I paid about 110 for all 3 of mine.
what are they made of teddy?  are they rubber or hard plastic?

Matt

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2006, 04:39:47 PM »
This type of response shaping is referred to as a phase plug or wave guide, it’s the same principal we use for loudspeakers for P.A systems. I do the same thing with my Omni mics. You have to be careful because you can go too far (this will also increase the distortion of the mic) because you are introducing a boost, you are going to increase the THD of the mic at the apex of the boost or center frequency.

This boost can be done with a simple brass tube that fits the mic capsule you want to leave a "lip" around the mic capsule but the edges of the brass tube must be smooth the size of the lip can be anywhere from 1mm to 3mm depending on the amount of boost you want to introduce.
Did you ever wonder how Earthworks gets a WM-60 capsule to go up to 50k? This is one of the ways they get a flatter frequency response on the mics they make and it works. But it has to be done right in order to get positive results.


The grid it self does not change the sound as much as the housing does that is placed in front of the mic. Not all caps can be used with all mics it depends on the size of the opening of the electrets capsule it self *the port that picks up the sound*

So you have to try different ones. I designed mine by watching the high-end change on a LMS program, until I got a flat response. The truth of the mater is most electret capsules have a dip between 15k and 20k, this cap makes this flat or it can even go above flat and act as a boost.

Chris Church


Will those balls work with just any omni? That is, if you can fine one to fit the diameter of your mic?
I really like the idea, I just don't understand it that well.  :-\ Just by the looks of it, I'd tend to think the ball would attenuate any sound coming from the front of the capsule  ???

I would say so, yes. The balls use diffractions on the surface to modify the sound field around the diaphragm. the attenuation is off axis at sources above 1khz, and on axis, the lower frequencies are boosted.


for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline Todd R

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2006, 04:58:59 PM »
Think $100 is bad for the raquetball?  How about $120 for a plastic nose cone?

Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2006, 05:03:32 PM »
Think $100 is bad for the raquetball?  How about $120 for a plastic nose cone?


looks like a $120 prosthetic device to me!
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2006, 07:09:35 PM »
Easy now, didn't mean to raise anyone's ire.  It's a simple fact of geometry that it is impossible to have two mics three times as far apart as they both are from the same source (as would be the case with a stereo pair recording a single source).  Draw a diagram or get out the tape measure.. can't do it in this 3 dimentional space universe.  I completely respect your experience and the reputation of GEFELL, but the information on their site is wrong, perhaps their english translation is to blame. 

Now if the source is large like a chorus or orchestra, it is possible to have one part of the large source close enough to one of the mics to achieve a 3:1 ratio between that one part of the large source and the two mics.  Other parts of the source will have lower ratios.  That's not what we are really talking about, and confuses the issue by breaking up a single large source into multiple parts.

If you can show me a diagram or actual mesurements of a spaced pair setup you have used to record a single source with a spaced pair following the 3:1 rule you will convince me.. & we can dig up the bones of Pythagoras & Euclid and re-invent geometry.

No offense meant to you.  The rule does of course exist, it just doesn't apply to a spaced stereo pair.. not because anyone says so, but because it cannot be done.

You are 100% incorrect The 3:1 rule does exist argue your point with GEFELL one of the most respected names in audio.
I have been a sound engineer for 20 years I know my mic techniques and not because I read them from a book because I have used them. This rule can be applyed to close micing and to distant micing BUT it is only a guidline I was only trying to say that this rule dose exist and it is used sometimes. The fact that someone says this rule does not exist does not make it so. Furthermore this rule does not always have to be used it depends on your situation.



Chris Church

Here is the url for the info I have posted. http://www.gefell-mics.com/stereo_mic_techniques.htm


Wide stereo
Set-up: Two directional or omnidirectional spread using the 3:1 rule
Primary use:  STEREO RECORDING OF ENSEMBLES AND ORCHESTRA'S
Stereo image: EXCELLENT
Center image: OKBest for: Working with the mid to far field
Advantage:   Better stereo imaging

Notes:
The wide stereo employs a 3:1 rule whereby the distance between mics is 3 times greater than the distance of the source. For large orchestra, an additional center mic is often used. This provides better stereo imaging but does not make for good mono compatibility.



Actually RESPECTFULLY, you have it backwards phase cancellation happens when two mics pick up the same source at the same exact time and amplitude and frequency. The polar patterns overlap making this happen. This normally happens at one frequency like for example if I had two Omni mics on a single singer and he or she was hot at 2.5k I would need to apply the three * to one ratio to avoid phase cancellation and the peek frequency or dominant frequency.

Your scenario of the rule needing to be applied with two different sources would be almost impossible to get any kind of phase problem.  Hence the need to space mics with such open polar patterns (OMNI) in the first place. This is the reason why you never see a true stereo one point Omni mic; it would be a phase cancellation nightmare.

Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar

Sorry Chris, but Gunnar is correct.  The 3:1 rule is for multiple mics on separate sources.  it is a multi-miking rule and does not apply to a single stereo pair. You are correct in noting that comb filtering is caused by the interference pattern of a single source, picked up by two mics and then summed again (either electronically or in air).  The 3:1 rule works by getting each source/mic pair far enough away from the next that any inevital bleed is or or less inconsequential for phase issues.  The rule has nothing to do with polar patterns other than more discriminating patterns can, by attenuation, help to reduce bleed and limit the comb filtering that the 3:1 rule aims to achive using distance.  The different path lengths between the source and the 3:1 separated mics proivides both attenuation and phase differences between the signals of all the mics that are picking up that souce, both intentionally (mic on that source) and unintentionally (bleed from other mics). 

It is physically impossible to apply the 3:1 rule to stereo micing, follow me here:

For stereo miking where some part of the source (say, the center of the stage) is equidistant from each mic, you cannot have more than a 2:1 ratio of source to mic vs. mic to mic distance.  The only geometry that would acheive a 2:1 ratio would be to put the mics in a line with the source on the midpoint of that line, centered between the mics.  As soon as you move the source away from the line the ratio drops. An equilateral triangle of source and mics would have a 1:1 ratio.
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2006, 07:18:14 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for your insight as to how mic manufacturer's can adjust the HF response by changing the geomety around the capsule.  I've suspected that was one way manufacturers were doing that.  It strikes me that this is taking advantage of the same physical phenomenon behind the baffle-step response for loudspeakers and the relationship of the area of the boundry vs. frequency boost range for boundry layer micing techniques.
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2006, 11:16:49 PM »

.. can't do it in this 3 dimentional space universe. 


Now this is only true for this 3 dimensional EUCLIDEAN space universe, some of the newer halls with a non-Euclidean metric allow all sorts of innovative mic placement.   However the mass or energy densities needed to sustain the local curvature of space in such halls can play havoc with unbalanced circuits, and you might as well kiss your time-code generator goodbye, unless you have something like the new Sound Devices Hyperspace 744 with a general relativistic invariant time-code function.  This will be useful if you want to keep the music on your tape from ending before it actually begins.

Jeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2006, 03:45:49 AM »
you guys simply lost me...

OK. no agreement if the 3:1 rule applies or not.
However, is it possible to say under which conditions a short spacing of 1 to 8 feet should be a good choice?

And of course I got very curious abt. the J Disc. The thread 'spaced Omnis vs. J/disc' has total 31 pages, so much info but I struggle to get the essence of it, I'd need a resumen stating all the important points. I'd be very happy to get clarified:

  • Generally Omnis are used with J disc, but also subcard, even cards can be used. Should Omnis be the default choice, or when could cards be the better choice?
  • Which would be the easiest to build but effective well working DIY J disc? Many build their own disc but modified it later. Why and how for which reason? Would a hard rubber disc make a good disc?
  • Which would be your prefered Mic positioning using the J disc? Separation, pointing? Closer to the disc gives better separation, further away less separation and...? Would they usually be pointed streight forward?
  • Is there any other important point?

Well, sure my questions are simplistic as the answers must depend on circumstances, but somethng like a dummy guide for J Disc would be just great.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 04:42:18 AM by kuuan »
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2006, 09:21:28 AM »

.. can't do it in this 3 dimentional space universe. 


Now this is only true for this 3 dimensional EUCLIDEAN space universe, some of the newer halls with a non-Euclidean metric allow all sorts of innovative mic placement.   However the mass or energy densities needed to sustain the local curvature of space in such halls can play havoc with unbalanced circuits, and you might as well kiss your time-code generator goodbye, unless you have something like the new Sound Devices Hyperspace 744 with a general relativistic invariant time-code function.  This will be useful if you want to keep the music on your tape from ending before it actually begins.

Jeff

does cell phone interference exist there?

See my upcoming piece in Phys. Rev. Letters "Cell-phone Interference in Audio Equipment Under the Most Fav Gerneral Relativistic Metric Space Structures - A Survey"

The short answer is that cell-phone interference is a universal constant and metric independent.  Although you can't make cell phone calls from a Black Hole, you can't avoid receiving them.

Jeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2006, 09:43:25 AM »
Search "spaced omnis vs jecklin type disc" or "jecklin disc"


1.) Omnis are technically the only microphones that when used can be called "proper" OSS/Jecklin Disc Technique. Who cares about that though..of course you can use any microphone you wish. I prefer omnis at all times with the disc because it sounds much more natural to me.
2.)that subject has been covered over and over...do a search on Jecklin Disc here http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=search;advanced

3.)My disc is a purchased one, and the Mics are angled outwards.yes, closer to the disc face= more seperation.

4.) an important point is that there are NO defaults here.Just use your ears and research and you cant go wrong...no static rules.


you guys simply lost me...

OK. no agreement if the 3:1 rule applies or not.
However, is it possible to say under which conditions a short spacing of 1 to 8 feet should be a good choice?

And of course I got very curious abt. the J Disc. The thread 'spaced Omnis vs. J/disc' has total 31 pages, so much info but I struggle to get the essence of it, I'd need a resumen stating all the important points. I'd be very happy to get clarified:

  • Generally Omnis are used with J disc, but also subcard, even cards can be used. Should Omnis be the default choice, or when could cards be the better choice?
  • Which would be the easiest to build but effective well working DIY J disc? Many build their own disc but modified it later. Why and how for which reason? Would a hard rubber disc make a good disc?
  • Which would be your prefered Mic positioning using the J disc? Separation, pointing? Closer to the disc gives better separation, further away less separation and...? Would they usually be pointed streight forward?
  • Is there any other important point?

Well, sure my questions are simplistic as the answers must depend on circumstances, but somethng like a dummy guide for J Disc would be just great.



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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2006, 06:58:59 PM »
I tried J-disc with C-483's for Taj Mahal at Red Rocks a while ago. It sounded OK, but I may try C-481's next, since I don't have the CK-62's yet. I have a pair of MSH-1A's on the way that I really want to try baffled too.
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2006, 06:06:20 AM »
I tried J-disc with C-483's for Taj Mahal at Red Rocks a while ago. It sounded OK, but I may try C-481's next, since I don't have the CK-62's yet. I have a pair of MSH-1A's on the way that I really want to try baffled too.

you'll love the j-disc bud, sounds real nice w/ the 62's :) i am gonna buy those omni's you got tho, they sounded sweet
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2006, 12:12:00 PM »
I love the j-disc when running in a good sounding room with a crowd that isn't too rowdy and it isn't an acoustic sing along type of show.  Outdoors though, I like the sound of split omnis.  I've run mine split only 1' and liked the results.
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2006, 12:13:17 PM »
I am right damit just say it  :P
I know that under some situations it would be impossible to use it but, there are plenty of times when it can be used like recording a choir.


Easy now, didn't mean to raise anyone's ire.  It's a simple fact of geometry that it is impossible to have two mics three times as far apart as they both are from the same source (as would be the case with a stereo pair recording a single source).  Draw a diagram or get out the tape measure.. can't do it in this 3 dimentional space universe.  I completely respect your experience and the reputation of GEFELL, but the information on their site is wrong, perhaps their english translation is to blame. 

Now if the source is large like a chorus or orchestra, it is possible to have one part of the large source close enough to one of the mics to achieve a 3:1 ratio between that one part of the large source and the two mics.  Other parts of the source will have lower ratios.  That's not what we are really talking about, and confuses the issue by breaking up a single large source into multiple parts.

If you can show me a diagram or actual mesurements of a spaced pair setup you have used to record a single source with a spaced pair following the 3:1 rule you will convince me.. & we can dig up the bones of Pythagoras & Euclid and re-invent geometry.

No offense meant to you.  The rule does of course exist, it just doesn't apply to a spaced stereo pair.. not because anyone says so, but because it cannot be done.

You are 100% incorrect The 3:1 rule does exist argue your point with GEFELL one of the most respected names in audio.
I have been a sound engineer for 20 years I know my mic techniques and not because I read them from a book because I have used them. This rule can be applyed to close micing and to distant micing BUT it is only a guidline I was only trying to say that this rule dose exist and it is used sometimes. The fact that someone says this rule does not exist does not make it so. Furthermore this rule does not always have to be used it depends on your situation.



Chris Church

Here is the url for the info I have posted. http://www.gefell-mics.com/stereo_mic_techniques.htm


Wide stereo
Set-up: Two directional or omnidirectional spread using the 3:1 rule
Primary use:  STEREO RECORDING OF ENSEMBLES AND ORCHESTRA'S
Stereo image: EXCELLENT
Center image: OKBest for: Working with the mid to far field
Advantage:   Better stereo imaging

Notes:
The wide stereo employs a 3:1 rule whereby the distance between mics is 3 times greater than the distance of the source. For large orchestra, an additional center mic is often used. This provides better stereo imaging but does not make for good mono compatibility.



Actually RESPECTFULLY, you have it backwards phase cancellation happens when two mics pick up the same source at the same exact time and amplitude and frequency. The polar patterns overlap making this happen. This normally happens at one frequency like for example if I had two Omni mics on a single singer and he or she was hot at 2.5k I would need to apply the three * to one ratio to avoid phase cancellation and the peek frequency or dominant frequency.

Your scenario of the rule needing to be applied with two different sources would be almost impossible to get any kind of phase problem.  Hence the need to space mics with such open polar patterns (OMNI) in the first place. This is the reason why you never see a true stereo one point Omni mic; it would be a phase cancellation nightmare.

Aaah, I see, the much misunderstood 3:1 rule.

And now, sorry for the emphasis.

The rule of thumb is ONLY of any use when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sound sources and want the two sources to be SEPARATED. So if you want one channel to have the lead singer and one to have the backup singer it is applicable. If then the singers are each one meter away from his/her mic, then the mics should be at least three meters from each other. Then each mic will basically only have one singer, allowing you to mix and match without much problem with phase issues and bleed between the mics. As with any rule of thumb it certainly does not work in every circumstance. It is a useful starting point for mulitmicing things in the studio or on the stage.

It has ABSOLUTET NO RELEVANCE for the distance between the two mics that make up a stereo pair. Here we want both mics to capture every source to some degree. The arrival time and volume differences are queues for our brain to recreate the stereophonic landscape. How to setup the mics is ruled by what stereo image you get, and then both mics need to get at least part of the picture, exactly as your ears.

Once more, sorry for shouting -- this seems to be a very common misconception.

Gunnar

Sorry Chris, but Gunnar is correct.  The 3:1 rule is for multiple mics on separate sources.  it is a multi-miking rule and does not apply to a single stereo pair. You are correct in noting that comb filtering is caused by the interference pattern of a single source, picked up by two mics and then summed again (either electronically or in air).  The 3:1 rule works by getting each source/mic pair far enough away from the next that any inevital bleed is or or less inconsequential for phase issues.  The rule has nothing to do with polar patterns other than more discriminating patterns can, by attenuation, help to reduce bleed and limit the comb filtering that the 3:1 rule aims to achive using distance.  The different path lengths between the source and the 3:1 separated mics proivides both attenuation and phase differences between the signals of all the mics that are picking up that souce, both intentionally (mic on that source) and unintentionally (bleed from other mics). 

It is physically impossible to apply the 3:1 rule to stereo micing, follow me here:

For stereo miking where some part of the source (say, the center of the stage) is equidistant from each mic, you cannot have more than a 2:1 ratio of source to mic vs. mic to mic distance.  The only geometry that would acheive a 2:1 ratio would be to put the mics in a line with the source on the midpoint of that line, centered between the mics.  As soon as you move the source away from the line the ratio drops. An equilateral triangle of source and mics would have a 1:1 ratio.
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Offline china_rider

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2006, 12:34:09 PM »
Ok... I'm not a very handy guy and doubt I could make my own but would love to try a JDisk with my 482s or the TLs I have on the way.  Anyone out there that has made one that would like to make another that won't break the bank?  PM Me....

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2006, 01:49:06 PM »
Ok... I'm not a very handy guy and doubt I could make my own but would love to try a JDisk with my 482s or the TLs I have on the way.  Anyone out there that has made one that would like to make another that won't break the bank?  PM Me....

Stay Kind,
Dana

Dana, it isnt hard really. you just need an embroidery hoop, a piece of threaded rod, a coupler, foam, and some felt..

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2006, 06:52:39 PM »
Ok... I'm not a very handy guy and doubt I could make my own but would love to try a JDisk with my 482s or the TLs I have on the way.  Anyone out there that has made one that would like to make another that won't break the bank?  PM Me....

Stay Kind,
Dana

I might be tempted to sell this one or make another just like it...

11" plexi-glass square, with the corners cut off, covered with placemat rubber backing, covered with three layers of 3/16" felt on each side, then I sewed some green fleece over that. To hold the microphones I used 2 Radio Shack desk mount threaded mic holders. It attaches to the stand with a standard mic clip assembly that I took apart.
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Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2006, 07:37:23 PM »
You just need some pockets on the corners and a set of miniature billiard balls
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2006, 08:21:34 PM »
You just need some pockets on the corners and a set of miniature billiard balls

Yeah, my choice of that green was based on the mark-down bin in the fabric dept. at Walmart. I kind of like it that color.  :)
I got 2 yards for under 2 dollars.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2006, 08:38:08 AM »
Yeah, my choice of that green was based on the mark-down bin in the fabric dept. at Walmart. I kind of like it that color.  :)
I got 2 yards for under 2 dollars.

Funny, I bought a big load of bargin bin fabric for sewing hammocks and the best of that was green, same price.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline ghellquist

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2006, 01:19:29 PM »
I agree with Chris. It applies to both situations.

Gunnar was right on the fact that it applies to seperate sources, but was wrong about it not applying to stereo micing.


Hmm.

Teddy, seriously, how often do you use this 3:1 rule in a stereo pair? Could you make a drawing of how the two mics are setup in relation to the single source (which might be smallish like a guitar or large like a symphony orchestra). Let us together once and for all kill the idea the 3:1 has anything to do with the two mics in a single stereo pair.

Anyway, the spaced stereo technique of two omnis is one of my favourites. It is sometimes called AB. Depending on the room, the mics may be about a foot apart or up to many feet, maybe as much as 20 feet in extreme situations (far from the sound source).

Anyone experimenting should try this. As the distance increases you often end up in a situation with a "hole" in the middle of the sound stage. This is clearly heard on a good pair of monitors, but sometimes not noticed in headphones. When the hole is there, you know you are too far apart. On the other hand, as the mics get closer to each other, the stereo width decrease, finally collapsing into mono.  When the mics are really close you may end up with some quite interesting phasing phenomena and wandering stereo images (one sound, say the S-sound of a chorist may wander from left to right in the stereo image). Somewhere in between too close and too far apart is the optimum. Sadly enough there are no rules really, you need to listen to get the right distance. In a hurry I tend to go for about 2 foot, usually works.

Gunnar

Offline ghellquist

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2006, 01:32:51 PM »
You are 100% incorrect The 3:1 rule does exist argue your point with GEFELL one of the most respected names in audio.
I have been a sound engineer for 20 years I know my mic techniques and not because I read them from a book because I have used them. This rule can be applyed to close micing and to distant micing BUT it is only a guidline I was only trying to say that this rule dose exist and it is used sometimes. The fact that someone says this rule does not exist does not make it so. Furthermore this rule does not always have to be used it depends on your situation.
m the line the ratio drops. An equilateral triangle of source and mics would have a 1:1 ratio.

Sure, the rule is there. Simply make me a drawing showing where it applies to the two mics in a single stereo pair recording one source (with a certain spread as otherwise it would not need stereo).

Anyway, that page from Gefell is wrong about "wide stereo". I have mailed the company asking them to remove it. I have a belief that the text is copied from a course material used in one of the audio engineering 101 courses (might be SAE, no idea really). The person writing it clearly had no idea.

Do read DPA-s mic university instead. They are slightly wrong about the "lacking bass" of cardioid mics, but their description of AB stereo is correct.
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/
(Sorry, I find no way to point directly down into the mic university texts on their web page).

They tend to regard "optimum distance" between two omni mics to be between 40 and 60 centimeters (a foot is about 30cm). I tend to end somewhere about there as well.

With regards
Gunnar

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2006, 01:48:21 PM »
so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!

I run splits on stage a lot and it is a big advantage in many cases to be away from the center of the stage, or closer to one instrument that you know is going to have less stage volume.  Many times you can avoid monitors and the overpowering of a particular instrument that may be located in the center, while highlighting another instrument off to the side that would otherwise be light in the mix.  I usually go cards center stage or splits if I need a little more versatility.  For stage taping I would think a j-disc would be a far larger distraction than mics without.  From the section or FOB, a j-disc may be best so you can run easily from a single stand.
     All these rules people are talking about for splits are bunk in my mind.  I think your ears tell the tale, and there is a huge window of acceptable placement.  I think the actual logistics of the event are the biggest determining factor for actual mic placement.  Trial and error, and knowing your gear is what will make for good recordings with any config.  The average person hearing a recording won't be able to tell any difference between a 10' spread or a 2' spread.  We are geeks so we know what to listen for and since we record in strange places it is a crap shoot no matter what.

matt
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2006, 01:59:30 PM »

They tend to regard "optimum distance" between two omni mics to be between 40 and 60 centimeters (a foot is about 30cm). I tend to end somewhere about there as well.

With regards
Gunnar

Gunnar, as you know, there are no surefire no or yes answers. There is no wrong.but, the rule exists, period. End of story. whether or not you find it pertinent is irrelevant.

and I somehow doubt that Gefell will heed your request. They have been in the business a bit longer than you. (well, everyone I know). Maybe if you were bob katz or dan lavry or Marc Aubort....

You say you do this for fun, and that you are still learning. How is it that you are managing to try to authoritatively state this or that???

No offense, but I think you may be better off not worrying about trying to change established rules that were written by our recording elders. Sure it was written before you could time align in DAWs and whatnot, but it DOESNT MATTER. The rule exists.

as for me, I rarely use templates or science(except for blumlein). I use my ears.










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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2006, 02:04:23 PM »
so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2006, 03:01:03 PM »
so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

Funny thing is that I find my desire to be discreet, the bands config, and the venue's layout and attitude towards me drive my setup more than anything else, LOL! God forbid, I could actually setup the way I'd really want to. Heh...
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2006, 03:47:36 PM »

Gunnar, as you know, there are no surefire no or yes answers. There is no wrong.but, the rule exists, period. End of story. whether or not you find it pertinent is irrelevant.
No offense, but I think you may be better off not worrying about trying to change established rules that were written by our recording elders. Sure it was written before you could time align in DAWs and whatnot, but it DOESNT MATTER. The rule exists.


Seriously Teddy. Show me how the rule would be applied in a stereo pair.

I am not a second arguing the existance of the 3:1 rule, I am arguing that it has no application to the distance between two mics in a stereo pair. Nothing less nothing more. Believing that it applies iis simply a misconception which I think people that knows better (like you) should stop trying to spread further.

Or if you continue in believing in what I believe to be a mistake, please, please, do explain exactly how it applies to the two mics in a stereo pair. Do make a drawing, showing that left mic is 10 yards to the west of the stage and right mic is 10 yards to the east of the stage and the stage is 10 yards wide and that this is the 3:1 rule. Once you have made this drawing, explain why this is the preferred rule how record using spaced stereo mics and then give one single example of a person doing recordings that way. If you can do that, yes, I will accept that the rule applies.

Gunnar

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2006, 04:00:36 PM »

They tend to regard "optimum distance" between two omni mics to be between 40 and 60 centimeters (a foot is about 30cm). I tend to end somewhere about there as well.

With regards
Gunnar

The weird thing is that nobody seems to make a bar this size.  After reading a few weeks back in one of these threads about a great Handel tape made with omnis at 45 cm apart (Teddy's friend?), I tried to get a 45 cm bar, SabraSom makes 1 meter and 30 cm but nothing in between, every other manufacturer seemed to make shorter.  Luckily Jerry Bruck at Posthorn Recordings thought he could use a 50 cm bar too, so he sawed a one meter SabraSom bar in half and now we both have 50 cm mounts.  Will be trying it out in September.

Jeff

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2006, 04:43:27 PM »


great to hear that Jerry is still in the business  ;)

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2006, 04:46:33 PM »

They tend to regard "optimum distance" between two omni mics to be between 40 and 60 centimeters (a foot is about 30cm). I tend to end somewhere about there as well.

With regards
Gunnar

The weird thing is that nobody seems to make a bar this size.  After reading a few weeks back in one of these threads about a great Handel tape made with omnis at 45 cm apart (Teddy's friend?), I tried to get a 45 cm bar, SabraSom makes 1 meter and 30 cm but nothing in between, every other manufacturer seemed to make shorter.  Luckily Jerry Bruck at Posthorn Recordings thought he could use a 50 cm bar too, so he sawed a one meter SabraSom bar in half and now we both have 50 cm mounts.  Will be trying it out in September.

Jeff

Yeah, that was John Lagrou of Millennia Media.

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2006, 04:53:16 PM »
I just found this. The stuff that relates to this thread is at the bottom... quite interesting...

http://www.regonaudio.com/MICROPHONE%20THEORY%20word.htm
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2006, 05:36:38 PM »
so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

Funny thing is that I find my desire to be discreet, the bands config, and the venue's layout and attitude towards me drive my setup more than anything else, LOL! God forbid, I could actually setup the way I'd really want to. Heh...

Truth to all that.  Now we're in the real world again!

Honestly I was hesitant to even comment earlier in the thread, given my amateur status and with a web page of the inimitable MG stating otherwise.  No doubt overly oppressive, control freak, freedom hating rule makers dreamed up the 3:1 rule eons ago.  My personal take is that it applies to individual mics on separate sources and doesn't apply to stereo mic’ing.  Another personal take is most of these rules are really just guidelines and suggestions and nothing beats experimenting and listening.  I’ve learned more from moving mics around while monitoring through some phones with good isolation than from anything else, just from the immediate feedback I get. But, two things irked me on to post:

1. simple practical application - 3:1 works and works really well for individual mic’ing of separate sources on stage or any sources summed together in my limited experience.  3:1 doesn't work so hot for spaced omni stereo arrays in my slightly less, but still limited experience (ignoring geometry for now). In fact, off the cuff, I’d say reversing the ratio to 1:3 isn’t even enough most of the time and 10:1 is probably more like it, but I’d certainly never state that as a rule.  If the rule states that a spaced pair of mic’s in a stereo pair should be 3 times farther apart than they are from the source, that rule just plain doesn’t work in my experience.  Which makes me think it’s a mis-application of the original rule, after all aren’t these rules supposed to be good starting points at least? (especially since they’re only suggestions now that we’ve broken free from the domination of rule making oppressors)

2. some rules just can't be broken or agued away unless overwhelming evidence to the contrary is demonstrated – I’m talking about the laws of physics and mathematics.  It remains a fact that two mics can't be 3 times as far away from each other as they are from the same point source, unless everyone in the venue uses their cell phones simultaneously to place calls to Steven Hawkings’ answering machine (which oddly enough sounds just like him).  The rule just can’t apply since it is overruled by the pesky, domineering, micromanaging universe we live in.

The only time it could conceivably be applied to a stereo pair is when mic’ing a very large source (like a choir or orchestra that can be considered one source, guitarist stage left and keyboard guy stage right are two separate sources if your stereo mics are on stage) with the mics very far apart and very close in, at well a 3:1 ratio.  Try it and see if it seems like a good rule.  Seems to me there would be a rather distant and indistinct center image, but I’ll defer to those of you who get to do this sort of thing regularly.

Other arguments:

Arguing that it doesn’t even apply in the large source like a chorus case is a link to a Bruce Bartlett article on ProSoundWeb.com which states: “The 3:1 rule cannot be applied to miking a choir with a few mics. Why? Most of the singers are somewhere between the mics, and those singers will be picked up with some phase interference. However, since each singer is in a different position relative to the mics, each singer is heard with a different coloration. The effect averages out over all the singers and so is not very audible.”

I often see it stated that the rule applies to mics that will be summed to a single channel, ruling out stereo.

Isn’t the whole rational for the rule to reduce comb filtering issues? Usually I see the rational stated as something like: “This creates a level difference of at least 9 dB between microphones, which reduces the comb-filter peaks and dips to an inaudible 1 dB or less”. Spacing your AB pair that much will certainly do that, so much so that the phase information between the two will be nearly uncorrelated.

None of the first three pages of a Google search turned up links which apply it to stereo mic’ing.

Oh good, quitin' time.  I’ll shut up now.  Apologies for the overly long post.
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Offline kuuan

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2006, 10:56:35 AM »
I just found this. The stuff that relates to this thread is at the bottom... quite interesting...

http://www.regonaudio.com/MICROPHONE%20THEORY%20word.htm

thank's for the valuable link...T+
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2006, 11:48:17 AM »
I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine. You can not quantify every single technique and say this will not work or this will work every single situation is different, and requires different techniques. No amount of book reading prepares you for the real world, sometimes out trusted techniques work sometimes they don’t. My whole point was that this technique in some situations is valid and not just with a single MONO source with stereo ones too.

I don’t think anyone here can say that this technique or that technique, work or do not work unless they are in the exact same room with the exact same source on the exact same day> so your argument is moot.

It’s great to say I like this technique or that, but in audio one must be careful of shooting down something because a book told you its wrong. I have seen the most stupid ass shit work in real life, things that don’t make any sense, but on that day with that band or source they did. We must remember never to close our eyes to that. There are many people out there recording, that have not got a clue, but they try things and they find there own way. I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use. Why say it’s not a valid technique? Are you the Technique police?  :P

so many less rules to remember with baffled omnis!
:shrugs: ymmv

Amen!  ;D I dont use rules or templates anymore, I find that I always have to vary the established configurations to get the sound that I am searching for. I never use DIN, DIN(a) or XY. I always use A-B, Blumlein, M-S, 3 omnis, or modified NOS( 110-120 degrees and 12-14inches capsule separation),OSS, and soon, Decca Tree.  >:D

Funny thing is that I find my desire to be discreet, the bands config, and the venue's layout and attitude towards me drive my setup more than anything else, LOL! God forbid, I could actually setup the way I'd really want to. Heh...

Truth to all that.  Now we're in the real world again!

Honestly I was hesitant to even comment earlier in the thread, given my amateur status and with a web page of the inimitable MG stating otherwise.  No doubt overly oppressive, control freak, freedom hating rule makers dreamed up the 3:1 rule eons ago.  My personal take is that it applies to individual mics on separate sources and doesn't apply to stereo mic’ing.  Another personal take is most of these rules are really just guidelines and suggestions and nothing beats experimenting and listening.  I’ve learned more from moving mics around while monitoring through some phones with good isolation than from anything else, just from the immediate feedback I get. But, two things irked me on to post:

1. simple practical application - 3:1 works and works really well for individual mic’ing of separate sources on stage or any sources summed together in my limited experience.  3:1 doesn't work so hot for spaced omni stereo arrays in my slightly less, but still limited experience (ignoring geometry for now). In fact, off the cuff, I’d say reversing the ratio to 1:3 isn’t even enough most of the time and 10:1 is probably more like it, but I’d certainly never state that as a rule.  If the rule states that a spaced pair of mic’s in a stereo pair should be 3 times farther apart than they are from the source, that rule just plain doesn’t work in my experience.  Which makes me think it’s a mis-application of the original rule, after all aren’t these rules supposed to be good starting points at least? (especially since they’re only suggestions now that we’ve broken free from the domination of rule making oppressors)

2. some rules just can't be broken or agued away unless overwhelming evidence to the contrary is demonstrated – I’m talking about the laws of physics and mathematics.  It remains a fact that two mics can't be 3 times as far away from each other as they are from the same point source, unless everyone in the venue uses their cell phones simultaneously to place calls to Steven Hawkings’ answering machine (which oddly enough sounds just like him).  The rule just can’t apply since it is overruled by the pesky, domineering, micromanaging universe we live in.

The only time it could conceivably be applied to a stereo pair is when mic’ing a very large source (like a choir or orchestra that can be considered one source, guitarist stage left and keyboard guy stage right are two separate sources if your stereo mics are on stage) with the mics very far apart and very close in, at well a 3:1 ratio.  Try it and see if it seems like a good rule.  Seems to me there would be a rather distant and indistinct center image, but I’ll defer to those of you who get to do this sort of thing regularly.

Other arguments:

Arguing that it doesn’t even apply in the large source like a chorus case is a link to a Bruce Bartlett article on ProSoundWeb.com which states: “The 3:1 rule cannot be applied to miking a choir with a few mics. Why? Most of the singers are somewhere between the mics, and those singers will be picked up with some phase interference. However, since each singer is in a different position relative to the mics, each singer is heard with a different coloration. The effect averages out over all the singers and so is not very audible.”

I often see it stated that the rule applies to mics that will be summed to a single channel, ruling out stereo.

Isn’t the whole rational for the rule to reduce comb filtering issues? Usually I see the rational stated as something like: “This creates a level difference of at least 9 dB between microphones, which reduces the comb-filter peaks and dips to an inaudible 1 dB or less”. Spacing your AB pair that much will certainly do that, so much so that the phase information between the two will be nearly uncorrelated.

None of the first three pages of a Google search turned up links which apply it to stereo mic’ing.

Oh good, quitin' time.  I’ll shut up now.  Apologies for the overly long post.

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Offline mmmatt

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2006, 12:18:05 PM »
I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine. You can not quantify every single technique and say this will not work or this will work every single situation is different, and requires different techniques. No amount of book reading prepares you for the real world, sometimes out trusted techniques work sometimes they don’t. My whole point was that this technique in some situations is valid and not just with a single MONO source with stereo ones too.

I don’t think anyone here can say that this technique or that technique, work or do not work unless they are in the exact same room with the exact same source on the exact same day> so your argument is moot.

It’s great to say I like this technique or that, but in audio one must be careful of shooting down something because a book told you its wrong. I have seen the most stupid ass shit work in real life, things that don’t make any sense, but on that day with that band or source they did. We must remember never to close our eyes to that. There are many people out there recording, that have not got a clue, but they try things and they find there own way. I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use. Why say it’s not a valid technique? Are you the Technique police?  :P


Chris,
He is not deneying that the rule exists.  His point is that it isn't physically possible to do with a single source and he is right.  Say there is a guitar player you want to mic with stereo omni's from 10' back.  Per the rule you would then be 30' apart on the omni's right?  His point is that by spreading the microphones out  30', each mic is no longer 10' away from the source.  If the rule stated that the center of the mic patern should be 10' from the source, or the mics should be 10' from the outside ends of the source (like a large orchestra) then the rule would be physically possible, but as it is stated in it's simple form it isn't possible to do.  I think his interpratation of the rule as being applicable for micing seperate sources makes sence.  After a certain distance you are not going to get bleed from other sources.  If you are micing a guitar cabinet from 2" away and a bass cabinet from 2" away, you would need to make sure that the capsuls are atleast 6" away from the oposite source.  My logic tells me he is right about this.  This rule, without a few if's, and's, or but's is literally physically impossible to use when mic'ing a single source in stereo.  Micing 2 seperate sources, in stereo, without bleed from one to the other, this rule makes a ton of sence.  When micing a single source in stereo you WANT bleed from one to the other, without it is not a stereo recording.  it is 2x mono!  Hard panned omni's would just be stupid for an ambient stereo recording.  The 3:1 rule should be called the "hole in the middle stereo mic technique".  It is foolish to tell people that this is a propper way to run stereo spit omni's.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2006, 12:21:56 PM »
I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use...

Agreed. It just seems like a misleading rule to me for stereo mic'ing, thats all.  Just trying to eliminate confusion, not trying to say "do it this way"
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »
You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church


I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine. You can not quantify every single technique and say this will not work or this will work every single situation is different, and requires different techniques. No amount of book reading prepares you for the real world, sometimes out trusted techniques work sometimes they don’t. My whole point was that this technique in some situations is valid and not just with a single MONO source with stereo ones too.

I don’t think anyone here can say that this technique or that technique, work or do not work unless they are in the exact same room with the exact same source on the exact same day> so your argument is moot.

It’s great to say I like this technique or that, but in audio one must be careful of shooting down something because a book told you its wrong. I have seen the most stupid ass shit work in real life, things that don’t make any sense, but on that day with that band or source they did. We must remember never to close our eyes to that. There are many people out there recording, that have not got a clue, but they try things and they find there own way. I say what ever you have to do to get the sound you want, you do. No matter how stupid the 3:1 rule is, it’s just one more thing in the toolbox of audio tricks that we can all use. Why say it’s not a valid technique? Are you the Technique police?  :P


Chris,
He is not deneying that the rule exists.  His point is that it isn't physically possible to do with a single source and he is right.  Say there is a guitar player you want to mic with stereo omni's from 10' back.  Per the rule you would then be 30' apart on the omni's right?  His point is that by spreading the microphones out  30', each mic is no longer 10' away from the source.  If the rule stated that the center of the mic patern should be 10' from the source, or the mics should be 10' from the outside ends of the source (like a large orchestra) then the rule would be physically possible, but as it is stated in it's simple form it isn't possible to do.  I think his interpratation of the rule as being applicable for micing seperate sources makes sence.  After a certain distance you are not going to get bleed from other sources.  If you are micing a guitar cabinet from 2" away and a bass cabinet from 2" away, you would need to make sure that the capsuls are atleast 6" away from the oposite source.  My logic tells me he is right about this.  This rule, without a few if's, and's, or but's is literally physically impossible to use when mic'ing a single source in stereo.  Micing 2 seperate sources, in stereo, without bleed from one to the other, this rule makes a ton of sence.  When micing a single source in stereo you WANT bleed from one to the other, without it is not a stereo recording.  it is 2x mono!  Hard panned omni's would just be stupid for an ambient stereo recording.  The 3:1 rule should be called the "hole in the middle stereo mic technique".  It is foolish to tell people that this is a propper way to run stereo spit omni's.

Matt
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2006, 12:38:45 PM »
I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine.

We all agree there is a 3:1 rule-of-the-thumb rule. It exists. It is a usable starting point.

But what we are saying is that IT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO MICS IN A STEREO PAIR .  

Sorry for shouting. I will say it again, it describes something else than how to set up two mics as a stereo pair.
Again, when you setup tow mics as a stereo pair, do follow the guidelines of great people going ahead of us. None of them ever uses the 3:1 rule in this context.

I am sort of getting agitated here. Feel like I am talking to kids that does not want to listen. Or are you trying to make me angry? Guess what, I´m sort of getting there.

Talking about 3:1 and stereo pair in the same sentence is based on a total misunderstanding. Total, utterly off. Has nothing to do with each other.

If nothing else it is physically impossible! How could it then be the preferred setup? Guys, do make a drawing (paper and pen)!

Gunnar

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2006, 12:48:17 PM »
You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church


Hmm. Cannot follow you? What distances are you talking about. Please make a drawing and call of the distances.

Or, do you mean one orchestra and three mics? That is not the 3:1 rule.

I do a bit of symphony orchestra recordings as an amateur. There are many three mic setups in common use. One used quite successfully for a long time by one of the classic houses was three omnis on a line straight in front of the orchestra. Another common setup is three omnis setup as above the orchestra in something called a Decca tree. I have never seen a single cardioid with two flanking omnis as a setup, never heard of it before. I would dare to say that it is not any standard technique.

A quite different thing is that today almost all symphony orchestra recordings use a lot of spot mics. A recording might have 50 mics and sometimes even more. Doing this right is something very different from setting up two mics to a stereo pair, so lets keep that out of the discussion.

Remember, this whole discussion went off on a tangent when people starting arguing that 3:1 is a good rule for the two mics (exactly two mics) in a stereo pair. These things has absolutely nothing to do with each other. I find it odd that people refuse to understand simple arguments. I find it even more odd that this misconcepting can keep on spreading, as it is so very easy to show that it is not even possible to make any setup following the rule (it is totally impossible).

Gunnar
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 12:56:05 PM by ghellquist »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2006, 12:52:34 PM »
I give up your right I am wrong ok how’s that end of argument I don’t want to argue about mic techniques I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. You guys continue the discussion with out me.


You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church


Hmm. Cannot follow you? What distances are you talking about. Please make a drawing and call of the distances.

Or, do you mean one orchestra and three mics? That is not the 3:1 rule.

I do a bit of symphony orchestra recordings as an amateur. There are many setups in common use. One used quite successfully for a long time by one of the classic houses was three omnis on a line straight in front of the orchestra. Another common setup is three omnis setup as above the orchestra in something called a Decca tree. I have never seen a single cardioid with two flanking omnis as a setup, never heard of it before. I would dare to say that it is not any standard technique.

A quite different thing is that today almost all symphony orchestra recordings use a lot of spot mics. A recording might have 50 mics and sometimes even more. Doing this right is something very different from setting up two mics to a stereo pair, so lets keep that out of the discussion.

Gunnar
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RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2006, 01:30:06 PM »
Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else ::) Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility






Chris Church,  just let it go. Dont waste your breath arguing. -T for getting worked up over nothing.  :P











I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine.

We all agree there is a 3:1 rule-of-the-thumb rule. It exists. It is a usable starting point.

But what we are saying is that IT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO MICS IN A STEREO PAIR

Sorry for shouting. I will say it again, it describes something else than how to set up two mics as a stereo pair.
Again, when you setup tow mics as a stereo pair, do follow the guidelines of great people going ahead of us. None of them ever uses the 3:1 rule in this context.

I am sort of getting agitated here. Feel like I am talking to kids that does not want to listen. Or are you trying to make me angry? Guess what, I´m sort of getting there.

Talking about 3:1 and stereo pair in the same sentence is based on a total misunderstanding. Total, utterly off. Has nothing to do with each other.

If nothing else it is physically impossible! How could it then be the preferred setup? Guys, do make a drawing (paper and pen)!

Gunnar
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 01:32:04 PM by Teddy »

RebelRebel

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2006, 01:33:35 PM »
I give up your right I am wrong ok how’s that end of argument I don’t want to argue about mic techniques I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. You guys continue the discussion with out me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church


Hmm. Cannot follow you? What distances are you talking about. Please make a drawing and call of the distances.

Or, do you mean one orchestra and three mics? That is not the 3:1 rule.

I do a bit of symphony orchestra recordings as an amateur. There are many setups in common use. One used quite successfully for a long time by one of the classic houses was three omnis on a line straight in front of the orchestra. Another common setup is three omnis setup as above the orchestra in something called a Decca tree. I have never seen a single cardioid with two flanking omnis as a setup, never heard of it before. I would dare to say that it is not any standard technique.

A quite different thing is that today almost all symphony orchestra recordings use a lot of spot mics. A recording might have 50 mics and sometimes even more. Doing this right is something very different from setting up two mics to a stereo pair, so lets keep that out of the discussion.

Gunnar
[/quote]

Offline kuuan

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2006, 01:49:45 PM »
thank's Teddy for making me laugh
have been wondering WHO or WHAT is SPACED OUT here
Everything you do through out the day, every thought and every feeling leaves an impression stored inside you.
These impressions create tendencies, their sum total is your character.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2006, 02:20:17 PM »
Ha! That painting is spot on, Teddy.  Who's the artist?
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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2006, 02:55:44 PM »
Ha! That painting is spot on, Teddy.  Who's the artist?

I have no idea, it just reminded me of Chris Church. (I love you Chris :-*)

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2006, 03:29:29 PM »
Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else ::) Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility



If any of my writings were interpreted as insults I am very sorry about that, none of them was ever meant as that. I ask you to forgive me for that.

As for talking to kids I was trying to illustrate my feeling about the discussion was frustration, not in any way implying that I consider anyone to be a kid. Quite on the contrary I expect you to be people that are open to arguments and willing to either accept arguments or willing to give logical arguments allowing me to change views and learn in the process. If I say that the earth is flat and you say it is round, I expect you to give logical arguments allowing me to understand where and how I am wrong.

So I guess I will leave it at this:
- some believe the 3:1 rule applies
- I am probably an idiot but I cannot for the world understand how (as to me it is a logical and physical impossibility)
- I am not alone in not understanding it

What is sad is if this keeps people away from trying spaced omnis in recordings.

And once more, if anyone took offense from my writings, this was not in any way my intention. I ask you to forgive me if that was the error.

Gunnar

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2006, 03:53:49 PM »
Gunnar, noone is going to stop using any mic technique based on what theyve read on a message board. as for the insults thing, I know as well as anyone that it is easy to sound obnoxious. (ive been called out quite a few times myself).
As for the 3:1 argument, I say that you have presented your thoughts well, and you maybe should leave it at that. It doesnt matter if you convince people or not. All you can hope to do is present your side of it.

As for the insults thing, I was just warning you. Once people start here, things get ugly rather quick. Pile ons and blow ups are common place. ;) Plus, Chris Church has a storm cloud that follows him everywhere. I think he is the Antichrist. Choose your battles wisely. ;)





Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else ::) Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility



If any of my writings were interpreted as insults I am very sorry about that, none of them was ever meant as that. I ask you to forgive me for that.

As for talking to kids I was trying to illustrate my feeling about the discussion was frustration, not in any way implying that I consider anyone to be a kid. Quite on the contrary I expect you to be people that are open to arguments and willing to either accept arguments or willing to give logical arguments allowing me to change views and learn in the process. If I say that the earth is flat and you say it is round, I expect you to give logical arguments allowing me to understand where and how I am wrong.

So I guess I will leave it at this:
- some believe the 3:1 rule applies
- I am probably an idiot but I cannot for the world understand how (as to me it is a logical and physical impossibility)
- I am not alone in not understanding it

What is sad is if this keeps people away from trying spaced omnis in recordings.

And once more, if anyone took offense from my writings, this was not in any way my intention. I ask you to forgive me if that was the error.

Gunnar

Offline ghellquist

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2006, 04:04:50 PM »
Thank you Teddy. Warning taken.

Gunnar

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2006, 04:11:06 PM »
I give up your right I am wrong ok how’s that end of argument I don’t want to argue about mic techniques I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. You guys continue the discussion with out me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church


LMAO

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2006, 11:33:41 PM »
No storm cloud, I was just tired of arguing a point on mic placement, when I have used it and it worked for me. That’s all; it gets rather boring to argue something like a mic technique, when nothing about mic placement in the first place is written in stone :)

I guess that was another point I wanted to make that there are no 100% rules to placing a mic.



Gunnar, noone is going to stop using any mic technique based on what theyve read on a message board. as for the insults thing, I know as well as anyone that it is easy to sound obnoxious. (ive been called out quite a few times myself).
As for the 3:1 argument, I say that you have presented your thoughts well, and you maybe should leave it at that. It doesnt matter if you convince people or not. All you can hope to do is present your side of it.

As for the insults thing, I was just warning you. Once people start here, things get ugly rather quick. Pile ons and blow ups are common place. ;) Plus, Chris Church has a storm cloud that follows him everywhere. I think he is the Antichrist. Choose your battles wisely. ;)





Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else ::) Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility



If any of my writings were interpreted as insults I am very sorry about that, none of them was ever meant as that. I ask you to forgive me for that.

As for talking to kids I was trying to illustrate my feeling about the discussion was frustration, not in any way implying that I consider anyone to be a kid. Quite on the contrary I expect you to be people that are open to arguments and willing to either accept arguments or willing to give logical arguments allowing me to change views and learn in the process. If I say that the earth is flat and you say it is round, I expect you to give logical arguments allowing me to understand where and how I am wrong.

So I guess I will leave it at this:
- some believe the 3:1 rule applies
- I am probably an idiot but I cannot for the world understand how (as to me it is a logical and physical impossibility)
- I am not alone in not understanding it

What is sad is if this keeps people away from trying spaced omnis in recordings.

And once more, if anyone took offense from my writings, this was not in any way my intention. I ask you to forgive me if that was the error.

Gunnar
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline kuuan

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Re: spaced omnis placement confusion
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2006, 01:49:18 AM »
The title I chose for this thread turned out fitting well.
Though Gunnar's  English is superior to mine, he might have the same problem as I have, English not being his mother tongue. Words chosen may sometimes be understood differently by 'native speakers' than intended to.
Please I don't want another start of the argument if or if not the rule exists, it obviously does, but just as obviously, since there are numerous recommendations for a placement of just a foot or two out there as well, it does not apply necessarily. Thank you Gunnar for pointing that out, and you are right, if the placement had to be according to the rule it's impracticability would have scared me away trying to use it.
Everything you do through out the day, every thought and every feeling leaves an impression stored inside you.
These impressions create tendencies, their sum total is your character.
gear: SP-CMC8+AT853 cards+omnis, AT822>DIY preamp>iRiverH120rockboxed

 

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