Topic: Neumann u89i M/S mic placement

[baustin]

hopefully some other, more technically inclined u89i users can chime in here.

i've been thinking about doing some m/s concert recording with the u89i's in the near future. obviously, i'd like to keep them as low profile as possible. the only times i've run blumlein or m/s, i've been in situations where an upright mic with an inverted mic directly above it isn't an issue.

what i'm getting to... can the u89i's be run horizontally?

hypothetical situation. i'm at a concert, dead center, front of board.
could i run one mic vertically (say a forward facing cardioid) with a horizontal mic above it? the top/horizontal mic (a figure 8 ) would have the xlr connect pointing towards the soundboard with the actual top of the mic facing the stage.

[MattD]

That is just fine - I'm not a U89 owner, but have used AKG 414s in this manner.

[svenkid]

how is the horizontal one staying in place? the u89s are pretty heavy to be secure w/o addittional reinforcement with that mount and that angle, no?

[baustin]

how is the horizontal one staying in place? the u89s are pretty heavy to be secure w/o addittional reinforcement with that mount and that angle, no?

this was just an on the fly setup with spare mic stands that were next to my desk. if horizontal placement of the mic is ok, rest assured that everything will be rock solid.

[RebelRebel]

yes..horizontal is fine.Sometimes There "can" be phasing issues, milliseconds of delay with your proposed placement..but in the absence of a solution to run vertically..yes..it will work.

hopefully some other, more technically inclined u89i users can chime in here.

i've been thinking about doing some m/s concert recording with the u89i's in the near future. obviously, i'd like to keep them as low profile as possible. the only times i've run blumlein or m/s, i've been in situations where an upright mic with an inverted mic directly above it isn't an issue.

what i'm getting to... can the u89i's be run horizontally?

hypothetical situation. i'm at a concert, dead center, front of board.
could i run one mic vertically (say a forward facing cardioid) with a horizontal mic above it? the top/horizontal mic (a figure 8 ) would have the xlr connect pointing towards the soundboard with the actual top of the mic facing the stage.

[0vu]

....

what i'm getting to... can the u89i's be run horizontally?

hypothetical situation. i'm at a concert, dead center, front of board.
could i run one mic vertically (say a forward facing cardioid) with a horizontal mic above it? the top/horizontal mic (a figure 8 ) would have the xlr connect pointing towards the soundboard with the actual top of the mic facing the stage.

Yes you can run them horizontally.

Your proposed layout is absolutely fine, except that you'll need to move the horizontal mic back slightly (or the vertical one forward)  to vertically align the capsules (in the bottom picture you can see that the capsule of the horizontal mic is slightly in front of a hypothetical vertical line drawn through the capsule of the lower mic). You should also get the mics physically closer together; the distance between the capsules should be as small as possible to minimise phase errors.

Once the capsules are vertically aligned they'll give virtually no audible difference in the phase issues between them than when the mics are used vertically aligned. Whilst you should get them as close as possible, sometimes practical considerations outweigh ultimate perfection in the mechanics of the setup. (The capsules sit slightly closer to the top of the mic than the sides so there'll be a few mm difference in the minimum distance you can achieve between them but in practice, I've never found this to be audible; reflections off the shockmounts contribute more colouration and that's pretty negligible.)  If a few mm misalignment to reduce the profile gets you access to a much better stand position, it'll more than make up for any losses due to very slightly increased phase errors.

If you want to make them slightly "lower profile" try making up/getting made an "L" shaped stand mount designed to take the mics on their non shock mount stand adapters and then decouple the whole mount from the stand as one piece. Alternatively, if you're using a cardioid Mid mic, using a normal stand, you could mount the horizontal mic on the top of the stand and get a side clamp (aka guitar clamp)  for the vertical mic and mount it to the rod of the stand below the horizontal mic. This only works with a cardioid as polar patterns which pick up from behind will be interfered with by the stand column. Lower profile still would be using a small diaphragm condensor as a Mid mic - especially something like a Schoeps CCM (or MK with an active cable)/Neumann KM100+active cable/DPA compact. (Using the black version of the mics also is more discrete but not really an option when your mics are silver )

[CQBert]

Got your message the other day while on vacation...  Sorry I could not get back to you sooner...  I just tried to set mine up in that manor and it seemed to work ok > though not the steadiest application considering their weight IMO.

Just brainstorming here a little...  FOB M/S with these could be quite tricky with the height issue... If I remember correctly you have the static mounts also... how close can you get them if you use two clamps an try to go one in front of the other and slightly higher...then correct the milisecond or so in post... 

Personally I prefer running sub-cards or Split Omni if possible when FOB and trying not to be obtrusive.

Please take a shot of your final choice and how it worked out!

CQBert

[airbladder]

The u89 is internally shock mounted.  From my experience there is no need to use another pair of shock mounts especially when running fob.  The only time I use a second set of shock mounts is if there is a chance of the stand getting kicked because I am in a heavy traffic area or if clamping to a railing with lots of vibrations.  If the stand gets bumped hard enough to be audible the second pair of mounts didn’t help.  In my opinion using two pair of shocks just made me feel better or made things look cooler.  If you use the ring mounts that will make things smaller and more stable, not to mention you bag a lot smaller, Ed   

[Tim]

The u89 is internally shock mounted.  From my experience there is no need to use another pair of shock mounts especially when running fob.  The only time I use a second set of shock mounts is if there is a chance of the stand getting kicked because I am in a heavy traffic area or if clamping to a railing with lots of vibrations.  If the stand gets bumped hard enough to be audible the second pair of mounts didn’t help.  In my opinion using two pair of shocks just made me feel better or made things look cooler.  If you use the ring mounts that will make things smaller and more stable, not to mention you bag a lot smaller, Ed   

fwiw damon rarely (never?) used shockmounts when he ran his u89s

if I ever went back to u89s I wouldn't use them either

[RebelRebel]

I use enhanced audio shockmounts with my u87s...and the difference is like night and day. It really made my jaw drop , hearing the mics with and without them...


http://www.enhancedaudio.ie/

[0vu]

I use enhanced audio shockmounts with my u87s...and the difference is like night and day. It really made my jaw drop , hearing the mics with and without them...


http://www.enhancedaudio.ie/

They're not shockmounts - ni the sense that they offer no protection whatsoever from impact noise to stand, cable or floor. However they are amazing in what they do for the sound of just about any mic. Not surprisingly, they improve smoe mics more than others, and seem to work particularly well on thin metal bodied LDCs, but they make some kind of difference/or improvement with every mic on which I've tried them.

[RebelRebel]

Yeah, eventually hope to get them for all of my microphones. the 426B is next as well as some pressure balls for my DPAs......

I use enhanced audio shockmounts with my u87s...and the difference is like night and day. It really made my jaw drop , hearing the mics with and without them...


http://www.enhancedaudio.ie/

They're not shockmounts - ni the sense that they offer no protection whatsoever from impact noise to stand, cable or floor. However they are amazing in what they do for the sound of just about any mic. Not surprisingly, they improve smoe mics more than others, and seem to work particularly well on thin metal bodied LDCs, but they make some kind of difference/or improvement with every mic on which I've tried them.

[dmonterisi]

according to doug oade, you should not need the basket shockmounts for the u89's in normal usage.  the capsules are internally shockmounted and that should be sufficient in normal circumstances.  certainly, shockmounts could be used as anadditional security, but, imo, the neumann mounts are way too big and are extremely expensive.  they are like a 4 inch cube and two of them take up an awful lot of space.  plus at like $250 each, they are pricey.  (however, i still have one that is unused that i was unable to sell if you are interested in it...i never tried hard enough to sell it).

as for m/s, x/y and blumlein configs, who was it that used to modify shure vert bars so that LDs could be run in a coincident pattern vertically?  I would think that would be the ideal option as you could almost ensure that the capsules will be aligned using the modified vert bar and 2 neumman swivel mounts.

[RebelRebel]

as for m/s, x/y and blumlein configs, who was it that used to modify shure vert bars so that LDs could be run in a coincident pattern vertically?  I would think that would be the ideal option as you could almost ensure that the capsules will be aligned using the modified vert bar and 2 neumman swivel mounts.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=66069.new#new

[dmonterisi]

thanks teddy...i guess i shoulda tried the search function.