Topic: Want Neumann- Don't know what kind

[Mr.Fantasy]

I want to buy some High end Microphones from Neumann, but I don't know what kind to get. I know I want a Cardioid and I want to use it for blatant recording into my Marantz CDR 420.

Any recommendations?

I want quality.

Will consider Shoepps as well.  (Wrong spelling I know...In a hurry)

-Treat

[Craig T]

skm-140 (also ak43 capsules, but not the ak50's)
u89
tlm170

those are the common favorites.

[danlynch]

Of course, I have the AK50's, speak highly of them, and produce recordings with them that people seem to think are some of the best around. 

I've been told that if I taped from "the section" in bigger venues, that my ak50s would have a weak bass response.   However, I tend to record in medium sized venues and sometimes smaller clubs, and the bass response has been outstanding (check out the Dinosaur Jr. recording at my site).  On the other hand, I've heard recordings of bands like moe. done with other 100 series caps in medium-sized clubs that sound boomy and muddy on the bottom end.

In the end, it essentially depends upon what your typical taping setting will be.

[Mr.Fantasy]

I will be taping in many different setups. From Club stuff, to Large outdoor amphitheaters.

So I suppose my search for a "perfect mic" just ended...

Instead I maybe need two sets of mics that are more purpose oriented?

But two sets of mics means twice the money, and I want uncompromised sound quality, so that means a LOT OF $$$....

But how do I test these mics?

Should I order them, try them, and then return?

Or is there another way?

Maybe rentals I guess? But I live in Tulsa...and there are not a lot of audio rental places here.....

Hmmmm.....

Can anyone forward me to any buyers guides for mics?

Or feel free to just tell me what you use for different scenarios......please???

[J.T.L]

Searching the archive.org for mic sources is a good way and a damn fine tool for slutting.

[stirinthesauce]

Searching the archive.org for mic sources is a good way and a damn fine tool for slutting.

x2

[Mr.Fantasy]

Searching the archive.org for mic sources is a good way and a damn fine tool for slutting.

Slutting?

[audBall]

Searching the archive.org for mic sources is a good way and a damn fine tool for slutting.

Slutting?

Spending willy nilly with no concern for feeding your children or avoiding future debt

[Mr.Fantasy]

I'm sorry for being the Idiot here, but where exactly am I looking?

Do I just find a Dead song or show or whatever? And it will have the information about what kind of mic was used?

I looked on the site...but 90% of what I quickly looked at were Sound Boards.

Any tips?

[audBall]

I'm sorry for being the Idiot here, but where exactly am I looking?

Do I just find a Dead song or show or whatever? And it will have the information about what kind of mic was used?

Try searches for things like:

Neumann
SKM-140 or SKM140
AK40
AK43
AK50
TLM-170 or TLM170
KM184 or KM-184



It will then list recordings that match any of those terms.  Chances are, they will match with what the "Source:" was for that particular recording.

[JasonSobel]

depending on your budget and needs, a pair of Neumann km184 mics would fit the bill as well.

[audBall]

depending on your budget and needs, a pair of Neumann km184 mics would fit the bill as well.

added that one to the list.  I can't believe I forgot those...  +T

[cshepherd]

I think the km 184 is one of the best microphone values we have for this hobby.  I started out with a used set almost ten years ago and still own them.

Chris

[Mr.Fantasy]

So what are some fundamental differences between the SKM 140  and the KM 184?

Am I right that the SKM 140 uses different caps for different purposes?

And in this picture, is this two SKM 140s with different caps?




And are these the same mics as the image above?

[DSatz]

Mr. Fantasy, there is no such thing as an "SKM 140 microphone." An SKM 140 is a stereo set of two Neumann KM 140 microphones plus some accessories. A stereo set of two KM 184 microphones is also available. The main differences are that the KM 140 is a "modular" microphone while the KM 184 is not, and that the KM 140 is substantially more expensive than the KM 184; for stereo pairs it is even more so.

The KM 140 is made up of an amplifier and a capsule, both of which are part of a larger series of interchangeable components. If you have a pair of KM 140 you can attach other capsules of the series in place of the AK 40 cardioid capsules, and then you've got a pair of microphones with some other directional pattern and/or frequency response characteristic. Or you can substitute a pair of KM 100F amplifiers (bodies) in place of the stock KM 100s and you'll have a pair of microphones with a built-in low-frequency rolloff and the option for a steeper and higher rolloff which is very useful for dialog recording and public address applications. In addition there are special accessories such as cables and goosenecks which can go between the capsule and amplifier of the modular microphones to facilitate certain kinds of setups. But none of these options exist for the KM 180-series microphones.

Apart from that, the "acoustical design" (i.e. the capsule and the way it is exposed to the sound field) are absolutely identical between the KM 140 and the KM 184, and that is what mainly determines the sound quality. There is a minor difference in the electronics, with the KM 184 having slightly lower inherent noise (and requiring slightly greater current from the 48 Volt phantom power supply). But for recording live concerts that difference in noise level will never be an issue, since even at the quietest of moments the noise of any public venue will swamp the noise of either type of microphone by a considerable amount.

--best regards

P.S.: Your two photos definitely do not show the same two microphones. The upper photo is an M/S arrangement with an AK 20 figure-8 capsule on top (i.e. definitely not a cardioid) and some other capsule beneath it. The head-to-head pair of microphones, who cares what pattern or model they are--no one should ever set up microphones for stereo recording that way if there is any reasonable alternative available (and if there isn't, then create one!).

[waltmon]

Ok...


I would say the economy way to go is the 184. great mics for a great price.  For the extra loot, I think
the 140's are the way to go. I think they are one of the best all around mics on the street.

In time add a set of 50 caps...big boomy venues, and little tiny clubs really benefit. Always amazed to hear people speaking against 50's.

I ran the 140's/50's > v-2 > ad2k+ > HHB PDR 1000....rock solid recordings everytime

[Mr.Fantasy]

Thanks very much guys...

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I'm one of the people who usually doesn't care for the AK50s.  Walt used mine for a while and he sent me some really nice recordings that he made with them.  I just never learned how to use them properly so I sold them.  If you ever get them and think they are thin, you can manage the response curve in post processing.  A buddy has convinced me to go back and remaster all my old AK50 tapes to correct the bass rolloff in samplitude.  Maybe I'll change my mind about the AK50s then.

Depending on budget, I'd have to agree that the 184s are an awesome choice.  There are ways to mount them so that they are about as small as a set of AKxx caps on a kwon bar.  If you can afford to spend more, I think you would prefer the SKM140 set because later you can buy other capsules to suit your needs.  If you have only one set of mics right now, I think you would find the smaller mics more flexible than something like the U89s.  Even though you say that you intend to tape openly, there are going to be times when you are going to get shoved into the back of the room or told "no" if you have a large pair on a heavy stand.  With a little bogen stand an some 184s or AKs on a stereo bar, you can sqeeze into some tight situations and be low profile enough that security people either won't see you running FOB.  If you are running late for a show, the smaller mics can easily clamp on to a stand that is already in position.

[Mr.Fantasy]

So with the 184's and the 140's both you think I could find a setup for most of my recording needs? (indoor/outdoor live recording, some blues bars, and maybe some slightly more stealthy approaches on occasion)

[Shawn]

if you have 140s I see no reason to have the 184s too unless you need 4 mics for something.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Yeah, I ran the 184s and now the 140s in all sorts of situations - the lawn, FOB, big stadiums, little bars, close mic'd a singer with guitar, etc - and always had good results.  The cardiod is very flexible and would be my choice if I could have only one pattern.  I know other people would prefer hypers like the MK41 or CK63 for general use.  I always liked the wider sound and just accepted the additional crowd presence as a natural part of an ambient recording.

[rokpunk]

Dear Mr. Fantasy -

Consider the KM184's....great sounding mics at a reasonable price point.

[TNJazz]

Just to point out - there ARE other options out there besides Neumann.  Don't buy mics solely based on name alone.

[Mr.Fantasy]

Just to point out - there ARE other options out there besides Neumann.  Don't buy mics solely based on name alone.

That is what I have been thinking. Neumann was the first Mic I started researching since my recent start in the High quality audio field.

I have been here on TS for about a week now. AND WOW!

There is so much to take in I really didn't even know where to start....

I was dead set that I wanted to buy some High end mics, buy a Marantz cdr 420, and maybe a nice mic pre-amp, but now I am all confused.

I just read the entire SD 722 vs. Korg Mr1000 thread all the way through, and now I have to decide if I want DSD or if I want to stick with whatever the 722 or the marantz 420 record in (Still very confused on the whole sampling rates and what 24 and 16 and 94 and all those numbers mean ((And I would love if anyone would throw a link to elsewhere on the site where that type of info is explained.)))

Now I am not so sure about the Marantz 420, because I read there was some concern about the PA system making weird vibrations or something.......

But I thought the previously mentioned 420 (gotta love the name) would record straight to the hard drive. And then I would have the option to go back to my hotel room and burn my CD....is that not the case?

GEEZ...and I still don't know what to do about Mics....

I need to go home tonight and do the Archive . com search by Source idea and just listen to some....


There is a sea of Audio advise out here and it is tough for a beginner to wade through all the bullshit and figure out what sound I like, and then how to reproduce it...

I am a second generation Dead Head (my dad taped over 168 dead shows going Nakamichi CM 300's straight into a Marantz PMD 430) and I plan on taping what Dead reunion shows I can and other than that I want to "tape" Dark Star Orchestra, Ratdog, Phil & Friends, and other modern jam bands that still tour a lot.  As well as Steve Pryor (Tulsa Blues guitar player) who plays bar gigs and assorted smaller venues.

So there...if anyone actually read that they now understand something of my situation, and I would be very appreciative if anyone would take the time and offer their recommendations to a beginner.

Thanks.

[Mr.Fantasy]

Come on now.....Heaven help the Fool....

[BWolf]

What is your budget?

If you are set on Neumann (and its a good choice in my opinion), I would suggest the 140s.  That way, you can buy extra caps and be versatile in your ability to adapt to situations.  With the 18x series, you are limited to the single pattern that you bought.  With the 14x series, you can change caps and achieve many styles and recording patterns.

If you have no budget and just want the top of the line mic, look at the u89i or the tlm 170.   Now these are all Neumann mics.  There are a number of other brands out there.  Remember, everyone hears things differently and you should make your own opinion based on what you like!

[waltmon]

Gotta say vote 140 for the all purpose Nuemann here, from experience.  They definitely sound better thean the 184's and if your budget can stand the active set up package, well worth it. The active cables give you a greatr low profile option, extra light weight for clamping on other peoples stands.

   I had a dude clamp U89's (I think it was Tim)...any way to my little Boegen, and that baby was stressin'   

I also have a 722 available if it fits your budget....sorry for the shameless advertisement...I'm moving to 744T.

[TNJazz]

I just read the entire SD 722 vs. Korg Mr1000 thread all the way through, and now I have to decide if I want DSD or if I want to stick with whatever the 722 or the marantz 420 record in

That would be PCM.  Just to note, the Korg also records PCM, at sample rates from 44.1kHz to 192kHz.  So if you didn't want to jump to DSD right away (due to the limited ability to play back full blown DSD at this time) you could always record PCM.

I have a 744T and a Korg in our small pack, and given the choice I would run the Korg over the 744 every single time if it were a stereo recording opportunity.  If its more than 2 channels we will use the 744 strictly out of convenience.  If Korg came out with a 4 or 8 channel portable, I'd ditch the 744 and NEVER look back.

[JoeKiller]

Being that you are starting out and money is not object, why not start smaller and get into the hobby first.  I've been in it for about 1.5 years and my tapes now, with the exact same equipment, sound sooo much better.  Taping isn't just getting the right gear, there is some art to it.  Go in the field and actually feel the wook stench attack your better senses.  Learn the skills and soon you will become a jedi taper.  You will need mind tricks sometimes.  I really suggest going for experience before you get the stuff with big $$$.  Unless you are always going to put hours into post production to put the stuff on the web every time, you are only recording for yourself. 

for what it is worth, I didn't buy my things until I had accumulated over 24 hours on this board in my stats and I still didn't quite know what I was doing!

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I agree that there are many really good options other than just Neumanns.  Unless you are planning to tape a lot of shows where you are the only taper, consider first getting a good recorder that will accept a 24-bit digital stream and then being a patcher for a while.  Take a lot of different digital patches, keep precise documentation, and after a while you'll have samples of situations and gear you want to consider.    I think that will help you a lot more than downloading samples from the internet because when you get home you will hear a recording of the show you just heard from the position where you listened.  I suggest patching out of less expensive rigs on some nights just to see how they compare.

In my case I started with some used Naks and when I was ready to pick new mics I listened to a comparison tape from Sonic Sense.  After listening to every track about 20 times, I ended up going with the Neumann KM184s because I liked the sound the best across the sample set.

You should look in the teams forum and find out where your local TS members are taping and you can meet some good people to help you with a patch and explain their rigs. 

[danlynch]

That is excellent advice. 

[Mr.Fantasy]

Well,

I really don't have a lot of people who record around here that I know of....I posted on the Oklahoma thread....but I don't have very High hopes. People around here are different than I am, I think I belong on one of the coasts...the cold water side....


But anyway...I live in Tulsa, and I am going to be on my own the majority of the time. We just don't get a lot of big names through here. . .

I am still studying my situation, and how much I am actually ready to lay down right now.....

[TNJazz]

I'll make the same recommendation that I did recently on another thread here.  It still applies.

For about $1800 total (maybe even less!), minus the stand, cables, bag, etc:

Mics:  beyerdynamic MC930 stereo set
Deck:  Korg MR-1000

And you're done.  A great starting rig that you won't NEED to upgrade for a long time, if ever.  The mics are top notch and the recorder is the wave (wav?) of the future.  You can swap out lots of different mics in the same price range of course, but NONE will give you the bang for the buck that the beyers do. 

FWIW, at least 2 current beyer owners moved to them from Neumanns and I believe they are both MUCH happier now...(just a little Neumann myth-busting on my part!)

Regardless of that, do your research first.  This will be a major investment, and you should look into every possible option before you commit to anything.  You really want to get it right the first time if you can.  Above all else, it's what YOUR ears prefer.

[stevetoney]

Listen to the people that recommend spending time on the archive.  You and YOU ALONE can determine what sounds best to you.  Since you have the money right from the start, spend the time doing your own research and make the best decision for YOU.

An example is that someone here said the 140s sound better than the 184s.  I have the exact opposite opinion.  Others will tell you that they both are the same sound because they have the same capsule.  None of these opinions is the single right opinion because ONLY YOUR EARS will determine what sounds best to you. 

Another example is that before I purchased my previous rig, even though I had listened on the archive and didn't like what I heard, I listened to the advice of people on the list and bought an MP-2 to match up with my MBHOs when I owned them.  The reason I bought this pre-amp was because SOOO many people had told me that this was T-H-E preamp for these mics.  I thought, well if so many people think that, then they can't be wrong.  Well, even though the vast majority of people recommend that pre-amp, once I got that pre-amp, I just didn't like it at all from day one.

So, the archive really _IS_ your best friend in making this decision.  If you don't spend hours and hours listening and comparing, in the end you're only gonna regret it because you'll make an uninformed decision.  And no matter what others tell you, the only thing you should listen to is your own ears.

So don't be confused.  Just listen to the archive and go with what your ears tell you is the sound that is best for you.  That's the best thing you can do for yourself.

[John Willett]

If you want Neumann, look at:-

KM 100 Series - namely the SKM 140 (stereo set of KM 140) or the SKM 100 (MS stereo set of KM 140 and KM 120).

A stereo set of KM 184 could also be considered.

I would also consider a stereo set of the digital KM 184-D with the DMI 2 interface.

Going off Neumann, I would also have a stereo set of the new Sennheiser MKH 8040 on the list - these are *tiny* and also work well outdoors.

I hope this helps.