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Author Topic: KM 184 D- Story?  (Read 8143 times)

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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 08:27:31 PM »
Quote
And don't forget that Sennheiser will also have an AES42 unit to compliment the new MKH 8000 series very soon.....

Translation to newbie?

What are MKH 8000 series? Really expensive mics?
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

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Offline DSatz

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 09:49:12 PM »
John, what you're saying could only be true if the output stage of the KM 184 were adding nearly 30 dB to the equivalent noise of the microphone's capsule + FET--normally the primary noise sources in any condenser microphone. But of course that isn't even remotely the case.

Let me suggest that you go back to your information sources at the very nice company that you work for, and ask them for a more realistic description of the dynamic range situation in this type of microphone. I guarantee you that it isn't 30 dB quieter than what can be gotten with an analog setup of comparable quality.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2008, 04:27:13 AM »
John, what you're saying could only be true if the output stage of the KM 184 were adding nearly 30 dB to the equivalent noise of the microphone's capsule + FET.................................. etc.

What I was saying refers to the dynamic range of the mic.

Say a mic. has 130dB of dynamic range - you get all this with the KM-D digital mic.

With an analogue mic. you have the added noise of the mic. pre. - but you have to reduce the gain to allow for headroom for peaks - say 15dB reduction.  Again, with the A/D, the normal set level is -18dBFS to allow for peaks.

That was what I was alluding to (and probably saying badly, sorry).

Go HERE and download the pdf at the bottom of the page (Lecture by Stephan Peus, AES 2001, "The Digitally Interfaced Microphone") - what I was trying to say is here. The diagram is in this as well.  Sorry, it's probably just me putting it badly (overworked and a very sick wife at the moment).

Offline John Willett

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2008, 04:31:39 AM »
Quote
And don't forget that Sennheiser will also have an AES42 unit to compliment the new MKH 8000 series very soon.....
What are MKH 8000 series? Really expensive mics?

The MKH 8000 series are the new series of mics discussed in depth in THIS THREAD.

Very high quality but not "really expensive" - prices are discussed in the thread. They are about £750 each in the UK.

The AES42 module will convert them into digital mics (and can use the same Neumann DMI-2 interface as the KM-D.

Offline DSatz

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2008, 07:56:43 AM »
John, I'm sorry to hear about your wife's illness, and I certainly hope a quick and full recovery is on the way.

As to the topic at hand, the Neumann KM-D series most certainly does not offer a 30 dB noise level improvement or dynamic range improvement over comparable analog microphones. If you compare the CCIR noise specifications of the analog and digital versions of KM 183/4/5, according to Neumann's latest published specifications (cata0199.pdf and cata0173.pdf on www.neumann.com), you'll see that they are within 1 dB of each other. For your convenience I've summarized those numbers in a little table which is attached.

Please note that where this slight difference occurs, the analog microphone has the lower equivalent noise level. The digital versions are doing very well indeed to come this close to the low noise levels of their highly optimized analog counterparts; I suggest that you look at it that way.

Any condenser microphone has a capsule and an analog impedance converter. Those two elements contribute a certain fixed noise floor. The novelty of so-called "digital microphones" is that they have internal A/D preamp/converters instead of relying on external versions of those items. This reduces analog signal losses and intereference in the cable, and the preamp/converters in the microphones may be very good ones. But they fundamentally cannot reduce the noise floor of components that come before them in the signal path.

The actual 30 dB figure in this picture is that high-quality condenser microphones have a dynamic range some 30 dB greater than that of 16-bit linear PCM. Neumann was already pointing this fact out in the early 1980s when compact discs began to appear. But it applies equally well to high-quality condenser microphones from numerous manufacturers, and this had already been true for a considerable number of years by then. Nor is 16-bit PCM the standard for professional recording any more as it was then! So I really hope that you will stop using that 30 dB figure out of context.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 11:56:42 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2008, 12:21:32 PM »
Agreed - but don't forget that the analogue mic. is plugged into an analogue pre-amp. and then an external A/D which reduces the headroom.

In my tiredness I was mixing s/n with overall dynamic range which I think caused the confusion.

The overall dynamic range of the analogue is reduced because of the headroom you have to allow, whereas the digital you get the full dynamic range of the capsule (as per the Neumann dia.)

Sorry for the confusion.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2008, 03:46:02 PM »
24, 28, "32"....
but the magic is all in bit 1

(thinking DSD)

Offline DSatz

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2008, 03:52:01 PM »
John, every valid criticism of analog preamps and A/D converters is equally true of so-called "digital microphones" except that with the latter, the analog circuitry and A/D converter are internal. Integrating these components can bring operational benefits, but can't remove the analog noise of the capsule and FET.

Even the world's greatest A/D converter can never improve the dynamic range of the analog signal that's being fed into it. The best it can do is neither to clip the strongest parts of that signal nor add audible noise to the weakest parts. Neumann's KM-D microphones have only the same signal-to-noise ratio as the corresponding analog microphones, or very slightly less; their equivalent noise is the same as that of their analog counterparts, or very slightly greater. Your original message in this thread, however, claimed otherwise:

> Because the A/D is done at the microphone capsule you do not need a microphone pre-amplifier; also you do not need to allow for the headroom in your external A/D - this gives you an improvement of about 30dB in signal / noise ratio.  They are *quiet*.

... and I think you can see now why I objected to that, i.e. it is not true. But if you'd rather talk about dynamic range, by all means, let's do so.

Referring again to Neumann's published specifications, the maximum SPL of the three initial KM-D microphones is shown in the little table which I've attached below, along with the maximum SPL of their analog counterparts. Dynamic range is the difference between maximum SPL and equivalent noise, so I've carried out the heavy, heavy math for all three models. You may check my subtraction if you like; the dynamic range of the digital microphones is 5 to 7 dB less than that of their analog counterparts.

Now it may be that the digital microphones' default 10 dB gain setting is the cause of this headroom limit. If that gain were to be set to unity via the remote control software of the DMI-2 interface, then perhaps the headroom of the digital microphones would exceed that of the analog microphones. But what happens to the equivalent noise in that setting? The spec sheet doesn't tell us. Somehow I doubt that a 5 - 7 dB narrower dynamic range can suddenly become a 30 dB wider range that way.

What I do know is that as soon as you open up that set of issues, you're right back in the situation that you decry with analog preamps and outboard A/D converters--the necessity of setting a rational gain structure so as to avoid overload and to use the dynamic range of the system in the best way. The fact is, those issues are present in "digital" microphones; they don't magically disappear.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 05:28:37 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2008, 03:55:49 PM »
dam man.
what do you do for a living ?
rocket surgeon ?

Offline DSatz

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2008, 05:09:30 PM »
Let me add three footnotes to my earlier messages out of fairness to all concerned.

(1) Attached is a scan of an ad which Neumann's UK representative ran in "Studio Sound" magazine in May, 1984. In my opinion this shows a responsible way of stating the issue, as far as one would in any ad.

(2) Where studio microphones are concerned, signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range are closely related but different things. Signal-to-noise ratios for microphones are calculated in a way which may seem odd if you're used to the hi-fi approach: To put things on an equal basis, they're calculated downward from a standard sound pressure level of 1 Pascal (about 94 dB SPL), even though that's well below the maximum SPL of any microphone worth using. As a result, a studio microphone's s/n ratio never accounts for its full dynamic range; it is simply 94 dB SPL minus that same microphone's equivalent noise level in dB SPL.

(3) Back to the main subject, what matters in practice is this: If we connect analog microphones to analog preamps, and connect A/D converters to the outputs of those preamps, what's the best dynamic range performance we can get as compared with these all-in-one "digital microphone" critters? Serious answers to that question are surprisingly hard to come by, which is why I bristle when people make confusing misstatements (e.g. "this gives you an improvement of about 30dB in signal / noise ratio" in this thread). But I've never made (or even seen) a thorough practical analysis of this yet, so I can't counter with any positive statement of my own. All I know is, it ain't magic.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 05:30:50 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2008, 01:33:07 PM »
All I was doing was referring to information from Neumann - though I said about 30dB when the Neumann diagram attached shows 25dB - but I had added a bit more because the normal ADC headroom is 18dB rather than the 14dB stated.

This is a jpeg taken from the pdf I linked to earlier which talks in more detail.



Offline DSatz

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2008, 08:28:36 PM »
John, I have this paper by Mr. Peus; reading it, and looking at this diagram for quite some time, I cannot make any sense of it. As you may know I do some translating of German to English, and even if I try to account for some mistranslation I can't see what the graph is trying to show. Can you? I will keep at it, and will let you know if I can come up with anything.

The crucial passage in the paper seem to be this (page 2 going into page 3): "Since the A/D conversion [in a mixing console or other recording device] cannot take place until after the necessary level adjustment has been made, dynamics will be affected not only by the characteristics of the microphone preamp and ADC technology used, but also by headroom aspects. This is because even the best microphone preamps available attain self-noise levels as low as those required only when set for maximum gain. In practice, this will seldom be the case, especially since condenser microphones have a relatively high output level."

The first sentence is rather cryptic; I hesitate to guess at what the author may have been thinking here, but it almost seems as if he uses "headroom" to mean "the upward range of signal levels which is available, but is deliberately never used." Thus when the diagram refers to 14 dB of headroom, the entire recording could never have any levels in it above -14 dBFS, even briefly--surely a ridiculous way to record anything, and surely no basis for making serious quality comparisons between systems.

As written, the second sentence seems mainly to be an oblique commentary on the way preamp specifications are obtained. It says nothing specific about noise levels in analog preamps at practical working levels. The more one sticks to the topic, the harder such generalizations would be to justify, I think.

Thus the entire point on which your own statements depend seems rather to have been evaded here. But maybe you can show me how to read this differently?

Also, do you happen to know how the level adjustment within the microphone is accomplished? It's one of the parameters that can be remote-controlled via software if you have a DMI-2.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2008, 03:34:17 PM »
Thank you guys for your interesting discussion at least....

DSatz & John Willett +T for being smart.....Nick'sPicks +T for being you.....
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Mics: Modified Nak 300's, Line Audio CM4
P48/Pres: PS2
Decks: Edirol R-09

Offline John Willett

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2008, 03:49:12 PM »
John, I have this paper by Mr. Peus; reading it, and looking at this diagram for quite some time, I cannot make any sense of it. As you may know I do some translating of German to English, and even if I try to account for some mistranslation I can't see what the graph is trying to show. Can you? I will keep at it, and will let you know if I can come up with anything.....................................................

Try the German part of the Neumann website and see if you can find the original German version, if that will help.

The digital mics go straight into a 28-bit ADC which digitises the complete signal immediately.

The AES42 spec says you output 24-bits and this is done in the DMI-2.  The gain adjustment is done digitally by the software - I think this is partially optimising the 28-bit original to the 24-bit output window.

I understand the graph to show that in a normal analogue system you lose dBs by the headroom you have to allow for in the in the mic. pre-amp and the additional headroom you have to allow for in the external ADC - having the ADC in the mic. means you get the full 130dB dynamic range.  That's how I understand it - and the KM-D are certainly quiet - so much so that I kept thinking we had failed to record until the music started on the playback.

I think I will try to make Stephan Peus aware of this discussion and see what he says - best to get it from the horses mouth.

All I am trying to do is to put it over how I understand it - if I am wrong Stephan will correct me.



Offline DSatz

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Re: KM 184 D- Story?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2008, 10:49:52 PM »
John, as far as I can see, if the original of that lecture was in German, it has not been posted for download on the Neumann Web site. I would certainly like to read it if it's available by other means.

After some further study I think that I may understand the diagram a little better, though. I've attached a copy of it here with two points labeled 1 and 2 for discussion.

At point 1, there is a slight downward jog representing ca. 1 dB loss of signal-to-noise due to the inherent noise of the microphone preamp. This seems to be showing a theoretical minimum of added noise here, such as might occur with a very good preamp that is optimally designed and optimally set for the given recording situation. Also, this would seem to be most consistent with unweighted noise measurement, since the noise of condenser microphones and the noise of mike preamps typically have rather different spectra, and almost any kind of weighted measurement will reveal this.

What seems to happen then is that an "alternative line" is shown, which plunges downward some 13 further dB below the 1 dB minimum loss. This was the most mysterious feature of the graph for me. It appears to be due to some kind of additional gain in the preamp which was needed to drive the A/D converter that is to follow. This might occur if a consumer preamp was used to drive a professional A/D converter, for example.

In other words it seems to represent a completely different kind of thing all of a sudden--instead of "this is a minimum loss which will always occur in a setup with an external analog preamp and A/D converter," it is "this is a possible loss which might occur in a less-than-optimal setup." It certainly could happen, but it might not--and some other loss of signal-to-noise ratio (either lesser or greater) is also possible, one assumes.

Now to me that seems true enough; mismatched components and needless losses are factors to reckon with in the real world. But if that's really what the "plunge" is about, we shouldn't mistake it for a necessary, inherent loss that will always be part of the process, such as the 1 dB loss indicated earlier.

Similarly there is a 1 dB downward jog from the preamp output to the A/D input (which I circled and labeled "2"), symbolizing the minimum loss of s/n which will inevitably occur, because a dB now and then is simply the price you and I must pay for living in the real world. But then again, beneath it there's another plunge downward--this time of some 9 dB for no particular reason, I think, except to illustrate what could happen with equipment that was sub-par as to its performance or its compatibility with the other equipment being used. There certainly is no logical relationship between the marking "ADC with headroom 14 dB" and a 9 dB drop in level; that's simply got to be a mistake of some kind, or else an estimate of "what could go wrong."

If it is a mistake, then most likely I think that the 13 dB (below 1 dB) drop shown in the preamp is due to the desire to leave 14 dB of headroom in the A/D converter--which would simply mean that 14 dB of its range is being thrown away completely. That isn't the right way to record anything, but some people do it, I guess.

But if we make an optimal live recording, and the sound pressure levels happen not to be enough to force a microphone to put out its highest possible signal levels, we haven't lost any signal-to-noise advantage that we could otherwise have had. Numerically, abstractly, sure--we weren't using the full 130 dB dynamic range of the microphone. But that's nothing to cry about. If the dynamic range in the room was 100 dB and our recording system functioned with, say, 110 dB of dynamic range, we've captured the recording just as well (audibly) as we could possibly have done with a system having 120 or 130 or even 200 dB of dynamic range.

What matters is whether we can fit the dynamic range of the microphone's signals into the rest of our recording apparatus, whatever it may be. Got the loudest part without distortion? Good. Got the softest part without any audible added noise? Good. Get them both, and we've got all there is. I don't see why I am supposed to feel unhappy because the microphones were capable of 130 dB range but my recording only preserved 110 (if in that performance in that room, only 110 dB existed to preserve).

There is a similar tizzy which some anti-digital people get into, which is the notion that in a 16-bit system, for example, any signals that are below (say) -48 dB are represented by only 8 bits, and signals 12 dB lower than that are represented by only 6 bits, and so on. Eventually you get to a level at which only one bit is being toggled on and off, which they imagine will produce square waves; it's all a sort of panic induced by the way they imagine things to work, as opposed to how they really do work.

So again I refer you to the specifications of these Neumann digital microphones, which compared to their analog counterparts resemble the minimum losses shown in Mr. Peus' diagram (ca. 1 dB at the preamp and another in the A/D converter). And again I say that Neumann did a great job of keeping the loss of signal-to-noise down to such small amounts. But your initial statement that there is an improvement of 30 dB in signal-to-noise ratio (or indeed any improvement at all) is simply unfounded, I'm sorry to say. A "digital microphone" can, at best, preserve but can never exceed the dynamic range of its analog components.

If you do contact Mr. Peus please give him my very best regards; I don't know him at all well but we are on an AES standards committee together, and he seems to be a very nice and very honorable human being.

--best regards to you, too!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 11:20:15 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

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