Topic: Schoeps advice needed what model to go for?

[schoff]

Hi all

I am constantly being amazed at the quality of the sound captured by the Schoeps family of microphones and with the strong pound sterling rate at the moment I’m considering buying a set but not sure which model to go for.

I would want to mount them onto a pair of glasses (see crappy blurry attachment)

I currently run a set of Audio Technica AT 853 Rx`s through a Church Audio CA 9100 Preamp into a Edrol RO-9.

As for the music I will be recording I’m mostly interested in rock though I’m not averse to acoustic stuff such as Christy Moor, Paul and Fred (from Little Feat) and some World music such as Tinariwen.

The venues I record in are either small club venues or medium size venues of aprox 2-3000 and occasionally Stadium shows such as MEN arena in Manchester, England.

Finally, would I need a new preamp? If so, any recommendations.

Thanks in anticipation

Schoff

[johnw]

Not sure if you've looked at specs but schoeps capsules are 20mm and probably wouldn't fit into glasses like that. There are other more discreet ways of mounting them though. The DPA 4060 on the other hand would work just fine how you have them in your picture and are much smaller and would not be as obvious. The schoeps would definitely need a new preamp as they require phantom power. Just search around on this site for ideas and options that would work for you. Good luck.

[Josephine]

Schoeps caps are TOO BIG to attach to your glasses in any manner.
It will not work.

[ianstone]

Schoeps caps are TOO BIG to attach to your glasses in any manner.
It will not work.

agreed, but that doesn't mean that you should not get schoeps.

here in the states, there is a guy who makes a box which is basically a pre-amp (that provides phantom power to the mics) as well as the mic bodies (CMC6 model, for example) all in one. It's home-made and its called the "N-BOX". you will find many people discussing here - and as far as schoeps are concerned it is probably the most 'discreet' option for running schoeps - and all you would need is a recorder behind it (ie: edirol r-09).

here are your other options for running schoeps MK series caps 'discreetly'
1. n-box with mk4 capsules - requires 4 9v batteries, and has the 'active' cables with collette ends included. (collettes are needed for any of the mk series capsules - mk4, mk41, mk4v, mk21, etc...) - of all the options, this is probably the least expensive as the Nbox + active cable costs around $1300 new
2. sonosax/ls2 "lemosax" + mk4 capsules + Kcy cable - also requires 9v batteries - only two. microphone bodies are not needed with the LS2 version - you just need the KCY adapter cable (with collette ends) and the mk4 capsules
3. sonosax sx-m2: with this option, again you need 2x9v batteries - but you also need the mk4 capsules, kc5 "active cables" and cmc6 microphone bodies. You'll also likely need short XLR's to connect the mic body with the preamp. the kc5 will connect the mic body with the mk capsule.
4. any other small powered preamp - sound devices mp2, eaa psp2, will work in place of the sonosax sx-m2... but again, you'll also need cmc6's + kc5's in addition to the mk capsules


Another option to consider is the schoeps CCM series. With these mics, you cannot change capsule patterns, you are stuck with the one you choose. however, if you don't need versatility, this might be a great option. I own the CCM4v capsules and mount them in a hat. i run them with a sx-m2 behind it, into an edirol r-1 recorder. the sound is phenomenal.

You could consider ccm4v, ccm4, ccm41 all for the applications you mention.
then you would need a preamp and a recorder.

hope all this information helps...

[schoff]

As usual you`ve given me lots to think about. Having just got back from a gig at the Blackpool Opera House where to put it mildly security was overtly heavy (people being threatened with ejection for having their phones out of their pockets) Stealth is the operative word and for that reason perhaps Schoeps is not the way to go. But there again the CCM4 route has possibilities. Thanks for your detailed explanation Ianstone

Perhaps I should be looking into alternative upgrades for the AT 853`s So thanks to Johnw for suggesting the DPA 4060`s

The search for audio perfection continues...

Once again thanks

Schoff

[DSatz]

Schoeps recently introduced a new type of amplifier called the "CMR." I've been wondering whether people here might have a use for it. In some ways it resembles what I imagine an Nbox to be. It was designed for use with pocket transmitters--the kind of "wireless microphone" packs that the guests on TV talk shows often have strapped to them. It's powered by the relatively low-voltage DC that those transmitters have available at their microphone inputs--it can operate on as low as 4 Volts, drawing only 1 mA or thereabouts.

It's miniaturized like a CCM or a Colette active cable is. But unlike the CCM series, it allows capsules to be interchanged (which for me personally has been the deal-breaker with CCMs--I use capsules with all the different patterns at various times). If you want pairs of cardioids, wide cardioids and supercardioids, you don't pay for six amplifiers.

The CMR has somewhat lower sensitivity than the equivalent CMC- or CCM-series microphones, which I think would be of some advantage for recording loud music--I see so many people here with recorders and preamps whose inputs were designed for lower signal levels, which go into overload when driven by the (often) much higher signal levels of studio condenser microphones. The signals are also low-impedance and unbalanced, which is what you want for most pocket-sized recorders, I think--though a small battery box of some kind would probably still be in order with these.

As I said, I'm not sure whether this would be useful to tapers or not, but I think it might. I'd appreciate it if someone who knows the ins and outs of stealth recording equipment would look and let me (us) know. The basic information can be found on http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmr.html.

--best regards

[Josephine]

DSatz ~

Does this CMR actually power the caps?  The little unit looks very interesting.  Like you, I'd love to hear comments re the CMR and stealthing.

[stevetoney]

In regards to alternatives to your setup with glasses, I've heard that some folks have had success creatively using a Kangol ventair cap, along with a needle thread and maybe some elastic. 

On a side note, it's incredible how narrow minded some places are...what possible harm can result from a few images taken from a phone cam?  Even if a phone cam is reasonable res, I mean what's wrong with letting someone have a souvenier from a show they attend...sheesh!

[DSatz]

Josephine, yes--the CMR does polarize the capsule. The main difference between a CMR and the front half of a Colette cable is that the CMR (apparently) contains a tiny DC converter for that exact purpose. When a Colette cable is used, the polarization voltage for the capsule comes down the wire from a DC converter in the CMC amplifier body.

--best regards

[johnw]

I've never understood or looked at this product, mostly  because I'm not interested in broadcast. But essentially this product is is a cable that the capsule attaches to and can be powered by a battery box of some sort? The blue box in all the stock photos is not included correct? Is there a box that a pair of cables could attach to and output a line level signal via rca, 1/8", xlr etc?

[DSatz]

johnw, the blue box in Schoeps' photos is an example of the general kind of wireless microphone (pocket RF transmitter) to which you might attach one of these CMR thingies. But no, Schoeps doesn't sell anything like that. Nor do they offer a battery box for two CMRs for tapers--assuming that such an arrangement would be a Good Thing. That's what I'm asking about, since I plainly don't know.

By the way, wireless mikes are used in film sound production a lot, and also quite extensively in live stage and concert productions--not only for TV. But the whole field is undergoing a great upset, because the channels they've been using for years are all being reassigned as digital television broadcasting takes over next year. Or so I heard at the last AES convention, anyway (this is not my field).

--best regards

[it-goes-to-eleven]

what possible harm can result from a few images taken from a phone cam?

One local venue bans the activity because the LCD on the phone is very distracting to the people sitting around/behind. Also, many phones now shoot video.  There was a big stink at that venue recently because someone uploaded cellphone video to youtube and the artist's wife went bonkers over it.

The CMT looks very interesting.. I see they are about $500 each.  Given the somewhat lower impedance and other minor differences it would be nice if someone could do a high SPL shakedown to verify there are no gotchas...

[schoff]

Hi tonedef Yes I have considered a hat but there is not a great tradition of hat wearing at gigs over here. I recon it would be akin to hanging a bloody great sign round my neck saying dodgy deeds afoot.

Anyway the recording from last night came out pretty well all things considered.

[jerryfreak]

i have two preamps at schoeps right now (a ca-ugly and a modified mic2496), waiting to get the blessing from bernhard, so i can order the CMR's before the pricing goes up on 2/1. So i should have a pair in a week or two. there are two different versions (one has a decoupling capacitor to eliminate any bias voltage on the signal wire), so i'm pretty much waiting to hear which one to buy. I had sent in the mic 2496 last year, but it didnt have enough current to power the cmr's, so i modded it and sent it back. I had chris build the ca-ugly with the correct current specs.

scott at redding told me that they are currently $499 each and are only going up to $529

if they do perform at close to or as well as a cmc6, thats a HUGE value considering how flexible they would be with the low power requirement. I def. will be a/b ing them with my 4v's.

4v's+cmr in kangol>small pre>recorder = uber stealth

[Alchemy]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the draw to the nBox is the 60v of phantom power that it supplies as well as the transformer pre it packs.

[DSatz]

> please correct me if I am wrong ...

Well, not knowing the Nbox's circuitry, my only quibble would be that this isn't a phantom powering arrangement of any kind. The 60 Volts is the capsule's polarization voltage. It is simply sent along on a wire all its own in the cable, without going through the whole Wheatstone Bridge rigamarole.

It's almost like with tube microphones, where the plate voltage was sent from the power supply to the microphone along one wire in the cable, the filament voltage on another, and the audio came back along totally separate leads with no DC on them. Generally the capsule's polarization voltage (which requires almost no current once the initial charge is established) was taken from the plate voltage, except in microphones with remote-controlled directional patterns.

The only differences here are that (a) there's no vacuum tube (that I'm aware of) in a Colette cable or an Nbox; (b) the two DC voltages are for the capsule and the FET in the head end of the Colette cable; and (c) the audio signal is unbalanced, so it flows in only one conductor and is measured relative to the shield/ground.

--best regards

[mmedley.]

scott at redding told me that they are currently $499 each and are only going up to $529

if they do perform at close to or as well as a cmc6, thats a HUGE value considering how flexible they would be with the low power requirement. I def. will be a/b ing them with my 4v's.

4v's+cmr in kangol>small pre>recorder = uber stealth

Doesn't appear to me to be "uber stealth" as say the Nbox, Lemosax, etc setups. It appears the CMR will only power one capsule per unit, therefore requiring 2 CMR's to get a stereo pair?

[mmedley.]

I figured I was missing something. 

[Shawn]

are there any unmodified preamps that can power the CMR? Jerryfreak mentioned sending in the mic2496 and a custom CA preamp, but I'm wondering if there are any of the self products that we typically use that would be applicable.

[jerryfreak]

none that i'm aware of (yet), though a simple battery box may be able to work. i've been communicating with schoeps all week, they havent gotten either pre to work to their satisfaction, but are begrudgingly sticking with it if i can get schematics/more info on the pres. Bernhard is the man, he is currently soothing the agro engineers who spent two days on this already! I've learned a lot about what the CMR's want in terms of power, if this first incarnation doesnt work, we'll get it soon. Chris is interested in making it happen....

are there any unmodified preamps that can power the CMR? Jerryfreak mentioned sending in the mic2496 and a custom CA preamp, but I'm wondering if there are any of the self products that we typically use that would be applicable.

[Shawn]

thanks for the info jerryfreak. +t

[jerryfreak]

update: neither len nor chris will provide schoeps with schematics of their preamps, so were kind of done with any support from schoeps

I'm not sure i want to spend $1000 on the CMRs and then risk damaging the CMR's and 4Vs by experimenting

[jerryfreak]

for a minute i thought you were talking about the DMT series mics which are popular on bisco tour

Seems like it should be easy to adapt an existing battery box design to the characteristics of the CMR.

Edit: corrected CMT to CMR