Topic: Shoulders or hat ?

[fandelive]

Hi,

I've read alot here and on other boards about pros and/or cons when mounting your mics on shoulders/hat and also about mic configurations (that stereophonic zoom article and thread).
I'm a budget taper so I don't have access to professional mics and mounts and so on...

I already have some experience taping shows FOB, 3rd or 4th rows back using omnis (binaural mounted). Stereo image was good.

Now, I have a brand new pair of cardioid mics.
I plan to mount my mics on my shoulders (kind of ORTF : 35cm appart and 40° angle) so that I will be able to move my head from left to right without getting stereo image fluctuations on the recording.

On the other hand, I could gain a little height (I'm not fairly tall...) by putting the mics on a hat.

But let's assume I won't be standing more than 10 rows back from stage and I don't think the room will be packed. Is it still worth mounting your mics on a hat ?

[rowjimmytour]

I run open so I am not sure about shoulder or hat (common sense tells me hat is better) but 35cm apart and 40 angle is no where near ORTF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique
ORTF combines both the volume difference provided as sound arrives on- and off-axis at two cardioid microphones spread to a 110º angle, as well as the timing difference as sound arrives at the two microphones spaced 17 cm apart.

[fandelive]

35cm apart and 40 angle is no where near ORTF

Yes, that's why I was saying "kind of" ORTF

A guy over at the stereophonic zoom thread says this :

I used to think that ORTF or DINa was the way to go w/ my mics in general, but after reading (and re-reading!) this document, and trying things like 40deg angle+35cm distance, and 60deg/30cm, my recordings are less boomy, so far.

I run open

I'll be running open too : but I live in a country where there's no dedicated spot for tapers and using professionnal stuff is just out of my budget...

Thank you for your reply

[doodee]

Based on past experience I live by the rule of getting your mics as high as possible in stealth situations. Have seen a pretty significant difference in sound quality just by getting them at head height (or better if possible) as opposed to shoulder height.

[rowjimmytour]

35cm apart and 40 angle is no where near ORTF

Yes, that's why I was saying "kind of" ORTF

A guy over at the stereophonic zoom thread says this :

I used to think that ORTF or DINa was the way to go w/ my mics in general, but after reading (and re-reading!) this document, and trying things like 40deg angle+35cm distance, and 60deg/30cm, my recordings are less boomy, so far.

Actually I believe that would be more like running split cards or NOS which is 30cm and 90 angle which I change the angle all the time so my mics point to outside of speakers. I think the real deciding factor to configuration and modified mic angle is where you end up taping at the show. My comment about open taping was directed at your ? about where to wear the mics and how I have no experience at stealth taping.
Peace

I run open

I'll be running open too : but I live in a country where there's no dedicated spot for tapers and using professionnal stuff is just out of my budget...

Thank you for your reply

[stevetoney]

It's a little hit and miss.  If the stack is nice and high, you can get away with having the mics on your shoulders if you're close enough.  But given a preference between have a wider spread (shoulders) and having them up higher (hat), I'd choose hat 100% of the time.  There's two reasons...first is getting direct sound from the source (the lower the mics, the more chance you'll get muffling because sound isn't direct but bouncing off of bodies and other things) and second is your mics will be at mouth level for all of the chatty folks and since the mics are less likely to be getting direct sound from the speakers, the talking will be more predominant, whereas when you have a higher SPL from direct sound, the talking can fade a little into the background.  Sometimes it only takes a foot of actual distance (shoulders to hat distance) to make a pretty large difference in the final result.

[Belexes]

I think someone would have to have golden ears to tell the difference between a hat mount and shoulder mount recording in a side by side comparison.  I'm not in the head/hat mount camp because it's not too much fun holding your head still for a 90 minute+ performance.

[stevetoney]

I think someone would have to have golden ears to tell the difference between a hat mount and shoulder mount recording in a side by side comparison.  I'm not in the head/hat mount camp because it's not too much fun holding your head still for a 90 minute+ performance.

It depends on whether the shoulder mount is down beneath the level of other bodies and if hat is up above bodies (direct sound pressure from the stacks)...all the difference in the world IMHO.  The OP says they're not too tall.  OTOH, I agree with you if there are no interferences.

[mfrench]

stealth - best kept stealth.

[Gordon]

stealth - best kept stealth.

the original poster said

I'll be running open too : but I live in a country where there's no dedicated spot for tapers and using professionnal stuff is just out of my budget...

[mfrench]

so whey discuss stealth then? So much of stealth can be derived from open taping.

[mfrench]

OK,... I cave - heres my stealth tip: A hat will get you a nice visit with security.

[Gordon]

seems to me he was asking about where to mount his mics and said it was open   not a big deal.  the s word never got dropped till you said it.

[mfrench]

nit picking.

[page]

OK,... I cave - heres my stealth tip: A hat will get you a nice visit with security.

If improperly mounted and/or a poor selection in style is exercised. 

As far as:

I run open

I'll be running open too : but I live in a country where there's no dedicated spot for tapers and using professionnal stuff is just out of my budget...

Ok, so if your going to be open taping, which (just to make sure we are all on the same page) means that your equipment can be seen without (much) penalty or flak, then I'd drop around $30 and buy a small stand, or a superclamp and pole (to clamp to your chair), then tape your mics to the pole/stand and run it directly in front of you so you don't obstruct anyone else's view.

If thats not an option, then I'd go for hat over shoulders for sonic results. Been there, done that, have the tapes.

Now, if you think your going to be penalized or kicked out by recording this event, then your not running open and you have a different environment that affects your question.

[mfrench]

OK,... I cave - heres my stealth tip: A hat will get you a nice visit with security.

If improperly mounted and/or a poor selection in style is exercised. 

I'm tired of answering questions of stealthing.  Use your mind, the rest will follow.

[page]

I've been busted, my partner has been busted. I can name a half dozen more people that have been busted wearing a hat (all top notch stealthers). Thats an archaic method.
There are way better ways - but as a stealther ::zipped lips::

I'll agree with that. It's not the best method for gaining height and stealthing, especially in this day and age. Attending the symphony with a french barrette (or top hat for that matter) does you no favors for example. 

[illconditioned]

OK,... I cave - heres my stealth tip: A hat will get you a nice visit with security.

If improperly mounted and/or a poor selection in style is exercised. 

As far as:

I run open

I'll be running open too : but I live in a country where there's no dedicated spot for tapers and using professionnal stuff is just out of my budget...

Ok, so if your going to be open taping, which (just to make sure we are all on the same page) means that your equipment can be seen without (much) penalty or flak, then I'd drop around $30 and buy a small stand, or a superclamp and pole (to clamp to your chair), then tape your mics to the pole/stand and run it directly in front of you so you don't obstruct anyone else's view.

If thats not an option, then I'd go for hat over shoulders for sonic results. Been there, done that, have the tapes.

Now, if you think your going to be penalized or kicked out by recording this event, then your not running open and you have a different environment that affects your question.

Almost all gigs I attend are either open or at least not very fussy.  I just use a hat so I can keep the mics on and not worry about them.

That said, I have never got flak from anyone.  It is the people holding up video cameras that are more likely to be called out by security (or the artists!).  It is not even recording, but just annoying or distracting other patrons that will get you in trouble IMO.  That is why I would never try to run a stand from my seat or fob.  Just wear the hat.

  Richard

[Scooter123]

I've used both.

If you shoulder stealth, you will have a number of challenges to overcome.

1.  Physical Connection.  Your mikes are physically attached to your body, and presumably you will have a sweater over them, so there will be contact with clothes which will create a rubbing sound.  I've built somethng to overcome this.  PM if you want details.

2.  Lack of Highs.  You are at shoulder height, so unless you are super tall, most highs will be muffled.

3.  You can see them.  Even smaller caps will be visible as a bump. 

I use a hat now. 

[Belexes]

To all the hat mount folks: keep your heads STILL.  I have heard recordings like they mounted their mics on Stevie Wonder's head and wonder why they even bothered.

[illconditioned]

To all the hat mount folks: keep your heads STILL.  I have heard recordings like they mounted their mics on Stevie Wonder's head and wonder why they even bothered.

Sorry about that .

  Richard

[deadheaded]

i think i do a pretty ok job being a human mic stand.

[stevetoney]

Having mics on a hat doesn't mean you have to keep your head still.

When a girl with big boobs and a low cut blouse walks by, I just lift my hat off my head and watch the bouncing walk on by!  Not gonna miss out on everything for the sake of the recording. 

Also, I used to try to advise people to keep discussions stealth stealth, but others don't worry about it, so why should I?  As long as you're not blatant about breaking rules and laws and infringing on people and bands, then I've stopped trying to be the stealth police around here and choose to join the discussion rather than pretend stealth doesn't exist.  Kinda pointless to pretend it doesn't exist anyway, isn't it...and as many have pointed out, many stealthers aren't doing it to get around any rules.

[sunjan]

I think someone would have to have golden ears to tell the difference between a hat mount and shoulder mount recording in a side by side comparison.  I'm not in the head/hat mount camp because it's not too much fun holding your head still for a 90 minute+ performance.

YMMV. I definitely hear the difference when listening to fellow "shoulder tapes" from the same shows that I recorded 25 cm higher up.
And I can keep my head still. Tap your foot if you want to dig the music. 

[Belexes]

Having mics on a hat doesn't mean you have to keep your head still.

When a girl with big boobs and a low cut blouse walks by, I just lift my hat off my head and watch the bouncing walk on by!  Not gonna miss out on everything for the sake of the recording.

I like boobs as much as the next guy, but when I am taping I'm all business. I'll track down those fun bags after I am finished with the recording.

[Belexes]

YMMV. I definitely hear the difference when listening to fellow "shoulder tapes" from the same shows that I recorded 25 cm higher up.

Same position in the venue, same mics?  I think side by side with everything equal, it is difficult to tell between the two.  One of these days I will open tape with the same mics, both hat and shoulder and post some samples.

[fleish]

Having mics on a hat doesn't mean you have to keep your head still.

When a girl with big boobs and a low cut blouse walks by, I just lift my hat off my head and watch the bouncing walk on by!  Not gonna miss out on everything for the sake of the recording. 

Also, I used to try to advise people to keep discussions stealth stealth, but others don't worry about it, so why should I?  As long as you're not blatant about breaking rules and laws and infringing on people and bands, then I've stopped trying to be the stealth police around here and choose to join the discussion rather than pretend stealth doesn't exist.  Kinda pointless to pretend it doesn't exist anyway, isn't it...and as many have pointed out, many stealthers aren't doing it to get around any rules.

I've only worn the hat one day for some outdoor festi shows. I know I was moving my head plenty (some people dance, I head-bob), but am not sure if that resulted in a poor sound or if it was the other factors (mics being in a hat, no screens, etc). I like the idea of lifting the hat up for a minute to hold still to be able to turn my head completely away from the stage to enjoy the scenery.

[su6oxone]

I like boobs as much as the next guy, but when I am taping I'm all business.

Totally agree.  You need discipline to pull a good non-stand tape. 

[KenH]

Yes, that's why I was saying "kind of" ORTF

A guy over at the stereophonic zoom thread says this :

I used to think that ORTF or DINa was the way to go w/ my mics in general, but after reading (and re-reading!) this document, and trying things like 40deg angle+35cm distance, and 60deg/30cm, my recordings are less boomy, so far.

I haven't used 110 deg / 17cm since I tried increased distance / decreased angle when not running stage lip or onstage based on recommendations I read here and on the Stereophonic Zoom paper.  Really like the results with say, 40 deg/35cm, which, according to the Stereophonic Zoom Figure 9, results in an SRA of about +-50 deg, with angular distortion of 5.  These numbers are basically the same with ORTF 110 deg / 17cm.  I find ORTF to be fantastic when onstage, but from further back, prefer increased distance / decreased angle (more direct sound vs reverberant sound...).

A couple of examples, fwiw, http://www.archive.org/details/cb32009-09-11.km184s.v3.hdp2 and http://www.archive.org/details/nrps2009-02-27.km184.v3.flac16

[fandelive]

A couple of examples, fwiw, http://www.archive.org/details/cb32009-09-11.km184s.v3.hdp2 and http://www.archive.org/details/nrps2009-02-27.km184.v3.flac16

Very nice recordings, thank you for sharing

[darktrain]

from someone who used shoulder mount and then went hat mount there is no comparison, the hat mount recordings are consisitantly better where the shoulder mount was very hit or miss, i will never mount them any other way and it does take discipline but can be done,  a little movement/stretching in between songs keeps you from seizing up

[mblindsey]

Having mics on a hat doesn't mean you have to keep your head still.

yep, mostly true.  i've even transferred my baseball hat to my wife's head, pulled gear out of my pockets, and had her hold my rig while I went to the bathroom.  done carefully the movement has a negligible effect....and i have binaurals...

i use this technique often when recording is allowed, but mic stands are not.

a quick "180 degree side to side" head turn, though, will definitely show up in a stereo recording with my mics...

--Michael

[Bootleg Detroit]

I'm late in seeing this post, but had to add my .02, I learned early on when hand holding 4011's the difference 1' can make.  Try this, the next time you're at a show listen to the difference simply by squatting down to allow your ears to be at shoulder level and take in the sound there for a minute and then stand up fully or on your tip toes to where your mics would be if on a hat and listen to the music from there.  It will make a believer out of you real quick!  When I first started taping, in an effort to be "more" stealth I hand held at shoulder height and was sorely disappointed with the outcome and recycled my tapes, as they lacked clarity and dynamic range -- muffled, decreased highs etc. 
I have to say that to me it was worth the risk, flying 'em high and getting a tape I knew I would listen to vs. playing it safe and have a tape I would never listen to.  PM me for the stories of the ones that got away!!

[Dede2002]

I like boobs as much as the next guy, but when I am taping I'm all business.

Totally agree.  You need discipline to pull a good non-stand tape. 

Agreed.
To be honest, at the concert I'm just a mic stand with a driver's license.