Topic: latency issues while synching 2 iRiver sources....

[mikesalvo]

so, I have a recording that Im trying to synch. one SBD source, and one AUD. both were recorded on 2 seperate iRivers (120) from UA-5's. I used this method many times, and never had an issue. For some reason, Im getting major drift between sources. Whenever I match them, anywhere from 20-90 seconds later they drift from each other. Both are 44.1.

What the heck could possibly be causing this? 

[page]

so, I have a recording that Im trying to synch. one SBD source, and one AUD. both were recorded on 2 seperate iRivers (120) from UA-5's. I used this method many times, and never had an issue. For some reason, Im getting major drift between sources. Whenever I match them, anywhere from 20-90 seconds later they drift from each other. Both are 44.1.

What the heck could possibly be causing this? 

Just different clocks. When I mixed between a 722 and MR-1, the drift wasn't constant show to show so I always had to redo the math. I'd hazard a guess that you've been getting lucky in prior instances.

[stantheman1976]

so, I have a recording that Im trying to synch. one SBD source, and one AUD. both were recorded on 2 seperate iRivers (120) from UA-5's. I used this method many times, and never had an issue. For some reason, Im getting major drift between sources. Whenever I match them, anywhere from 20-90 seconds later they drift from each other. Both are 44.1.

What the heck could possibly be causing this? 

Just different clocks. When I mixed between a 722 and MR-1, the drift wasn't constant show to show so I always had to redo the math. I'd hazard a guess that you've been getting lucky in prior instances.

They start drifting 90 seconds into the recording?  That's not normal.  Even taking into account clock speeds between separate devices drift shouldn't start to happen until further into the recording.  Even when I sync two totally different recorders that used different sampling rates I rarely get more than about 1/2 to 1 second of total drift over an hour or more.  I wish I could help more but I can tell you for sure if the recording starts to drift after that short of a time then something is wrong with the recorder it's happening on.

[mikesalvo]

ya, this is REALLY bizarre and frustrating. Shouldnt the iRivers typically have no issues synching since they are on the same clock? Ive never had this problem using these2 recorders. Ive tried for HOURS and still cant seem to fix this matrix... 

[page]

so, I have a recording that Im trying to synch. one SBD source, and one AUD. both were recorded on 2 seperate iRivers (120) from UA-5's. I used this method many times, and never had an issue. For some reason, Im getting major drift between sources. Whenever I match them, anywhere from 20-90 seconds later they drift from each other. Both are 44.1.

What the heck could possibly be causing this? 

Just different clocks. When I mixed between a 722 and MR-1, the drift wasn't constant show to show so I always had to redo the math. I'd hazard a guess that you've been getting lucky in prior instances.

They start drifting 90 seconds into the recording?  That's not normal.  Even taking into account clock speeds between separate devices drift shouldn't start to happen until further into the recording.  Even when I sync two totally different recorders that used different sampling rates I rarely get more than about 1/2 to 1 second of total drift over an hour or more.  I wish I could help more but I can tell you for sure if the recording starts to drift after that short of a time then something is wrong with the recorder it's happening on.

my fr2-le and iriver drifted enough after 3-5 minutes that it made it unpleasant. My MR-1 and 722 didn't seem to drift for a good 20 minutes. Out of an hr, it's usually not off more then 22000 samples.

ya, this is REALLY bizarre and frustrating. Shouldnt the iRivers typically have no issues synching since they are on the same clock? Ive never had this problem using these2 recorders. Ive tried for HOURS and still cant seem to fix this matrix... 

Nope, all devices are best treated as individuals. You may get 2 722s, but they will have drift unless you use the WC or CLink functions. It's just a question of how much how fast.

As for fixing it, if the drift is reasonably constant, then the best guess is to treat it like any normal non-WC mix and stretch via resampling. Morst wrote an FAQ and directions (which are remarkable I might add, just make sure to read them a couple of times first) about it somewhere in the computer section.

[mikesalvo]

As for fixing it, if the drift is reasonably constant, then the best guess is to treat it like any normal non-WC mix and stretch via resampling. Morst wrote an FAQ and directions (which are remarkable I might add, just make sure to read them a couple of times first) about it somewhere in the computer section.

tried searching, couldnt find this. Any idea where it is? Thanks for your input btw! 

[runonce]

ya, this is REALLY bizarre and frustrating. Shouldnt the iRivers typically have no issues synching since they are on the same clock? Ive never had this problem using these2 recorders. Ive tried for HOURS and still cant seem to fix this matrix... 

Its not the same clock - just the same brand.

All sample rates are not created equally...

[page]

As for fixing it, if the drift is reasonably constant, then the best guess is to treat it like any normal non-WC mix and stretch via resampling. Morst wrote an FAQ and directions (which are remarkable I might add, just make sure to read them a couple of times first) about it somewhere in the computer section.

tried searching, couldnt find this. Any idea where it is? Thanks for your input btw! 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103031.msg1373822.html#msg1373822

Like I said, read it through a bunch of times first (and take some notes too). The first time I tried it, I did the math incorrectly 3 different ways before I figured out where I was misreading a section. Ever since then it's inconvenienced me maybe 5 minutes out of the entire workflow.

[SmokinJoe]

If you are running UA-5 > optical > H120 in 2 places, you are using the UA-5's clocks.  I've had good experience doing that, generally they are so close I don't need to shrink or stretch, just align.  Temperature could be a factor.  If one is in a hot bag, and the other on a cool bench, that could make the clocks differ.

To page's point, I find my MR-1 is the one with the drifty clock, and it's not linear.

There are a bunch of different ways to stretch/shrink one.  My suggestion is this:
- align the front, see how much they are off at the back (maybe like .300 seconds), and you want to shrink the bottom one.
- Then in Audacity, highlight that track and click "Effect -> Change Tempo".
- At the bottom of the screen it says "Length (seconds) from xxx.xx to xxx.xx".  Let's say it's 5000.00 seconds.  If you want it shorter by 0.3, change the right box to 4999.70
- Hit OK and let it churn.  Go line up the front again if necessary, and see how the back lines up.
- If you don't like it, edit -> Undo (twice) and repeat with a little different number.

[SmokinJoe]

One more thought... iRivers running optical in from the UA-5... if you have a flakey optical cable, you will get "skips" in time.    In other words there is a little bit of music missing.  On some other recorders you will get a drop out, or "dead air", but with an H120, it just won't write what it didn't understand, and it will just pick up where it can, and you have no freakin idea how much is missing.  I've had recordings with a fraction of a second missing, and I've had recordings with minutes missing.

The point being if you have one of these, you will drive yourself crazy trying to fix it.  The only fix would be to find those skips and insert dead air for the right amount of time.  Unless you found the missing Nixon tapes, it's not worth the effort.

[runonce]

One more thought... iRivers running optical in from the UA-5... if you have a flakey optical cable, you will get "skips" in time.    In other words there is a little bit of music missing.  On some other recorders you will get a drop out, or "dead air", but with an H120, it just won't write what it didn't understand, and it will just pick up where it can, and you have no freakin idea how much is missing.  I've had recordings with a fraction of a second missing, and I've had recordings with minutes missing.

The point being if you have one of these, you will drive yourself crazy trying to fix it.  The only fix would be to find those skips and insert dead air for the right amount of time.  Unless you found the missing Nixon tapes, it's not worth the effort.

^^^Very true...

I have had clock synced sources...that when you try to align - after some point, they will =suddenly= go out of sync...not drift, its very abrupt...

Took me a while to figure what was happening...and figure out where the samples were dropped.

Each source sounded fine on its own...the dropped samples werent noticeable to the ear...only when you tried to sync up.

I think I resorted to: sync, then export to the unsync point...resync, and then export the rest...seems like I had to do this a few times to get the whole show straightened out.

And it did turn out that I had a bad optical cable...

[F.O.Bean]

So, would yinz recommend dropping the iRiver and getting a Sony D50? You could move to 24bit AND get a more reputable recorder/bit dump, both at the same time

[runonce]

So, would yinz recommend dropping the iRiver and getting a Sony D50? You could move to 24bit AND get a more reputable recorder/bit dump, both at the same time

Hey thats y'uns out here in south central my PA brother!

And for sure - matrixing 16 bit sources is for the birds...thats why I roll OTF.

When your serious about multi-tracking you need those extra bits!

[F.O.Bean]

So, would yinz recommend dropping the iRiver and getting a Sony D50? You could move to 24bit AND get a more reputable recorder/bit dump, both at the same time

Hey thats y'uns out here in south central my PA brother!

And for sure - matrixing 16 bit sources is for the birds...thats why I roll OTF.

When your serious about multi-tracking you need those extra bits!

What does OTF mean

[runonce]

So, would yinz recommend dropping the iRiver and getting a Sony D50? You could move to 24bit AND get a more reputable recorder/bit dump, both at the same time

Hey thats y'uns out here in south central my PA brother!

And for sure - matrixing 16 bit sources is for the birds...thats why I roll OTF.

When your serious about multi-tracking you need those extra bits!

What does OTF mean

On
The
Fly

 

[F.O.Bean]

So, would yinz recommend dropping the iRiver and getting a Sony D50? You could move to 24bit AND get a more reputable recorder/bit dump, both at the same time

Hey thats y'uns out here in south central my PA brother!

And for sure - matrixing 16 bit sources is for the birds...thats why I roll OTF.

When your serious about multi-tracking you need those extra bits!

What does OTF mean

On
The
Fly

 

Gotcha

[jbell]

The UA5 doesn't send the correct flag to the D50!  So it will only record a 16bit signal when using the optical on the UA5. 

So, would yinz recommend dropping the iRiver and getting a Sony D50? You could move to 24bit AND get a more reputable recorder/bit dump, both at the same time

[F.O.Bean]

The UA5 doesn't send the correct flag to the D50!  So it will only record a 16bit signal when using the optical on the UA5. 

So, would yinz recommend dropping the iRiver and getting a Sony D50? You could move to 24bit AND get a more reputable recorder/bit dump, both at the same time

Ah, thanks for the info

[mikesalvo]

ha ha, well in an update to my situation that started this thread it is with great embarassment that I present to you the solution to my problem! I experienced the same problem the other night, but during a soundcheck. one of my decks was getting a signal but the clock was not running normally. OPTICAL CABLE WAS LOOSE! DOH'!

[F.O.Bean]

ha ha, well in an update to my situation that started this thread it is with great embarassment that I present to you the solution to my problem! I experienced the same problem the other night, but during a soundcheck. one of my decks was getting a signal but the clock was not running normally. OPTICAL CABLE WAS LOOSE! DOH'!

That will do it

[tapinfool]

The UA5 doesn't send the correct flag to the D50!  So it will only record a 16bit signal when using the optical on the UA5. 

[/quote]

what are the chances of this ever being fixed ?

[jbell]

I would say not a chance since the UA-5 has been discontinued!  I would start saving for a V3 or SD usbpre2.   

[tapinfool]

I would say not a chance since the UA-5 has been discontinued!  I would start saving for a V3 or SD usbpre2.

John, I'm hip about the V3

What is an SD usbpre2?

[jbell]

The new sound devices pre that has optical and coax digital outs so you can run a D50 behind it as a bit bucket.  New they are $650 and they have the same pre as the 7 series recorders.  I thought about upgrading to one to use with the D50, but I was happy with my MP-2 > D50 combo.  So I decided to just get an M10 since I wasn't using the optical on the D50.  The other option is a optimodded V3.  Here is a link to the SD usbpre2

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/usbpre2.htm

[tapinfool]

The new sound devices pre that has optical and coax digital outs so you can run a D50 behind it as a bit bucket.  New they are $650 and they have the same pre as the 7 series recorders.  I thought about upgrading to one to use with the D50, but I was happy with my MP-2 > D50 combo.  So I decided to just get an M10 since I wasn't using the optical on the D50.  The other option is a optimodded V3.  Here is a link to the SD usbpre2

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/usbpre2.htm

Thanks a TON for the info, John

If I wouldn't have JUST pulled the trigger on a littlebox I'd be all over this 

Next year, I reckon, I'll have me one of those in my bag 


What are we tapers doing to power these ?

[jbell]

Tekkeon for the usbpre2

[F.O.Bean]

The new sound devices pre that has optical and coax digital outs so you can run a D50 behind it as a bit bucket.  New they are $650 and they have the same pre as the 7 series recorders.  I thought about upgrading to one to use with the D50, but I was happy with my MP-2 > D50 combo.  So I decided to just get an M10 since I wasn't using the optical on the D50.  The other option is a optimodded V3.  Here is a link to the SD usbpre2

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/usbpre2.htm

Thanks a TON for the info, John

If I wouldn't have JUST pulled the trigger on a littlebox I'd be all over this 

Next year, I reckon, I'll have me one of those in my bag 


What are we tapers doing to power these ?

Trust me, you'll be happy Kev

[jbell]

Kevin,

   I ran the D50 with a LB for a while!  I decided to stick with the MP-2, but the LB is a great pre.  I would recomend getting the DIN3 plug so you can run it with DVD batteries (festival) and a single 9v tray!  The AA and 2 9v tray have an extended case, which I didn't like because it was alittle to tall to fit right in my bag.  The standard case really makes the LB much smaller.  You might want to spend the extra cash on output transformers too!  Just my 2 cents though.  You'll pull nice recordings with the LB>D50 combo

[tapinfool]

Well, Bean already broke Jon in changing all kinds of stuff on his LB 

So, hopefully my request is not too big of a deal. 

I did get switchable transformers out, not in, didn't feel i needed the extra gain in.

And I just emailed and asked Jon to change the AA battery sled to a DIN3 plug.

I didn't know what that was or I woulda got that in the first place as I have 2 DVD batteries for my UA-5.

Thanks for all the help with this, guys

I appreciate it 

[F.O.Bean]

Well, Bean already broke Jon in changing all kinds of stuff on his LB 

So, hopefully my request is not too big of a deal. 

I did get switchable transformers out, not in, didn't feel i needed the extra gain in.

And I just emailed and asked Jon to change the AA battery sled to a DIN3 plug.

I didn't know what that was or I woulda got that in the first place as I have 2 DVD batteries for my UA-5.

Thanks for all the help with this, guys

I appreciate it 

No problemo buddy And did you get a LittleBox or a BigBox

[jbell]

With the DIN3 you can still have an internal or 1 9v battery w/o getting the extended case!  I guess that would depend on what you prefer and want to spent.  If you have DVD batteries then the DIN3 is a great festival option.  I had Jon send the cable unterminated and Ted hooked it up so it could be used with DVD batteries. 

Well, Bean already broke Jon in changing all kinds of stuff on his LB 

So, hopefully my request is not too big of a deal. 

I did get switchable transformers out, not in, didn't feel i needed the extra gain in.

And I just emailed and asked Jon to change the AA battery sled to a DIN3 plug.

I didn't know what that was or I woulda got that in the first place as I have 2 DVD batteries for my UA-5.

Thanks for all the help with this, guys

I appreciate it 

[tapinfool]

Well, Bean already broke Jon in changing all kinds of stuff on his LB 

So, hopefully my request is not too big of a deal. 

I did get switchable transformers out, not in, didn't feel i needed the extra gain in.

And I just emailed and asked Jon to change the AA battery sled to a DIN3 plug.

I didn't know what that was or I woulda got that in the first place as I have 2 DVD batteries for my UA-5.

Thanks for all the help with this, guys

I appreciate it 

No problemo buddy And did you get a LittleBox or a BigBox

well, if he changes the order, I'll have a little 

if not we be big box boy 

[F.O.Bean]

Well, Bean already broke Jon in changing all kinds of stuff on his LB 

So, hopefully my request is not too big of a deal. 

I did get switchable transformers out, not in, didn't feel i needed the extra gain in.

And I just emailed and asked Jon to change the AA battery sled to a DIN3 plug.

I didn't know what that was or I woulda got that in the first place as I have 2 DVD batteries for my UA-5.

Thanks for all the help with this, guys

I appreciate it 

No problemo buddy And did you get a LittleBox or a BigBox

well, if he changes the order, I'll have a little 

if not we be big box boy 

Awesome, congrats bud