Topic: Neumann 140 vs Neumann 84i

[twoodruff]

I know there is a difference, but what is it? What are the sonic qualities of both.

Trey

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Busman might know.  He bought some 84i's and sold me his 140's.

[stirinthesauce]

I know there is a difference, but what is it? What are the sonic qualities of both.

Trey

Freq. response for one:

http://www.microphone-data.com/microphone.asp?mic=1518

http://www.microphone-data.com/microphone.asp?mic=505

Note: free to register to this site.  Great place for finding specs on most mics and models.

Seems the noise floor is slightly higher on the km84 ( to be expected on an older mic) but a MUCH flatter freq response. 

[Todd R]

I may be remembering wrong, but I thought the km84 used a nickel capsule not gold-spluttered mylar.  The km84 might be a transformer mic as well.

[stirinthesauce]

The KM83, KM84 and KM85 shared the same preamplifier body and differed only in their interchangeable small diaphragm capsules. The 83 was omni, the more common 84 cardioid and the 85 was a cardioid with LF roll-off (12dB @50Hz). The diaphragms were gold-coated Mylar. The microphones were intended for use in broadcasting, film and recording studios and could be fitted with various capsule extension tubes if needed. The output impedance could also be selected to 50ohms to feed loads as low as 250ohms. Suffix i microphones had an XLR connector. The KM7x series were broadly similar but for use with T-power (modulation lead powering).

Of course I'm no expert on Neumann mics, just copied what was listed in the link I posted above    No idea about whether or not there was an output transformer.

[keepongoin]

the KM 8x (introduced in 1966) series are semiconductor-based (tranformer-based) systems, unlike the km100 series which is transformerless.

[0vu]

The subject of KM18x vs KM8x series Neumanns has come up a few times on the SOS forums. There's a general feeling that the old KM8x series were better/nicer sounding mics than the new KM18x equivalents (which Neumann claim are identical to the KM100 series and only cheaper because they lose the interchangable capsules), regardless of the technical improvements in the noise specs of the newer mics.

A couple of relevant threads may be found here and here

(Mods: I hope it's ok to link to other forums - apologies and please delete if not.)

[keepongoin]

The subject of KM18x vs KM8x series Neumanns has come up a few times on the SOS forums. There's a general feeling that the old KM8x series were better/nicer sounding mics than the new KM18x equivalents (which Neumann claim are identical to the KM100 series and only cheaper because they lose the interchangable capsules), regardless of the technical improvements in the noise specs of the newer mics.

A couple of relevant threads may be found here and here

(Mods: I hope it's ok to link to other forums - apologies and please delete if not.)

that isn't the neumann claim at all.  neumann says the KM-100 with the AK capsules is the same as 18x series with only the capsules being different. 

the KM-8x series, released in 1966 was the first move from tube mics to a transformer system.  In 1983, at the AES convention in Amsterdam, Neumann released the TLM technology which allowed for the use of active cables, and hence the modular mini mics.  the transformers in the 84s will make them sound different than the tranformerless mics.  the spectra are slightly different, and in listening, the 84s sound "warmer" or "more well rounded" to my ear...

http://www.kinovox.dk/docs/Neumann_history.PDF

[Nick's Picks]

a buddy of mine has some km84i's, and they sound NOTHING like 184s/140s.
its far "fatter" and warmer sounding.  detailed...but not that wet slappy sound (that I love so much) w/the newer KMs.
Its like the 148 of neumanns, and probably sounds best w/a clean preamp that will not color the mics as they have much flavor on their own.

[twoodruff]

thanks for the input nick

[0vu]

The subject of KM18x vs KM8x series Neumanns has come up a few times on the SOS forums. There's a general feeling that the old KM8x series were better/nicer sounding mics than the new KM18x equivalents (which Neumann claim are identical to the KM100 series and only cheaper because they lose the interchangable capsules), regardless of the technical improvements in the noise specs of the newer mics.

A couple of relevant threads may be found here and here

(Mods: I hope it's ok to link to other forums - apologies and please delete if not.)

that isn't the neumann claim at all.  neumann says the KM-100 with the AK capsules is the same as 18x series with only the capsules being different. 

the KM-8x series, released in 1966 was the first move from tube mics to a transformer system.  In 1983, at the AES convention in Amsterdam, Neumann released the TLM technology which allowed for the use of active cables, and hence the modular mini mics.  the transformers in the 84s will make them sound different than the tranformerless mics.  the spectra are slightly different, and in listening, the 84s sound "warmer" or "more well rounded" to my ear...

http://www.kinovox.dk/docs/Neumann_history.PDF

I'm not sure you got what I was saying. I didn't say that Neumann claim the KM18x/KM100 mics are the same as the old transformer based KM8x series; I said that they claim the KM18x and KM100 series are the same. I've checked again and the Neumann claim is that the KM18x series of fixed capsule mics is basically the same as the (equivalent patterns) in the KM100 series of interchangable capsule mics. They originally shared identical electronics too but the electronics in the KM18x series were updated several years ago and are now quieter than the KM100 series. They do also state that (some of) the capsules in the KM100/KM18x series are the same as the original KM8x (fet80) series but the electronics and acoustic design of the capsule housings are different.

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences. I generally prefer the older mics, (especially the KM84 over the KM140 - 'well rounded' is a good description of the difference ) except where I need the  flexibility of the active cables/tubes and mounting systems of the KM100 series. I do find the KM131 to be very similar to the KM83 though. The 83 has some LF 'warmth' and perhaps softness/muddiness (on a bad day), presumably from the transformer, whilst the KM130 has a cleaner, tighter sounding (though no less extended)  LF; the upper ranges are pretty much the same though and neither is 'better'. Some days one suits, some days it's the other.

[DSatz]

Sonically, the main difference between the KM 84 and KM 140 is that the KM 140 has slightly greater response around 9 - 10 kHz; the difference is a tiny bit more than 1 dB. Of the two, the KM 84 is closer to being flat or neutral sounding although it, too, has a small bump in that region (not shown in 1970s or later response graphs; it falls entirely within the 2.5 dB tolerance field but it is definitely there).

The KM 84's capsule did not have a metal membrane; even the predecessor models KTM, KM 64, U 64 and KM 74 had Mylar membranes. The only Neumann small cardioid with a metal membrane was the KM 54 microphone from the vacuum tube era.

Electronically the KM 140 is more sensitive, quieter, has a considerably higher SPL limit, and is less readily affected by cable capacitance, but it requires more current from the phantom power supply that drives it. The acoustically identical, non-modular model KM 184 is 3 dB quieter even than the KM 140 and otherwise has the same specs and sound. The KM 84 had a transformer output while the KM 140 and KM 184 are transformerless.

Personally I prefer the KM 84's high frequency response characteristic, and wish that Neumann had never changed this, though I don't doubt that it was requested of them. Apparently at one point an important Japanese customer (radio station or network) ordered a batch of microphones using the transformerless KM 184 electronics but the replaceable capsules and rear entry port arrangement of the original KM 84; I wish that combination was available to everyone. (It isn't--I've asked.)

--best regards

[ghellquist]

If you have a good pair of 84-s hold on to them and treat them well. They are getting an almost mythical reputation as they are now vintage stuff and will probably keep on rising in value. Perhaps not the very best idea then to take them to shows for taping. In the meantime the KM140 (and even more so the lower priced KM184) is a very respectable nice mic for a lot of uses. Of course there are a lot of other mics too choose from at that price point. None of them will be any guarantee for a good recording, you still need to know how to use them.

GUnnar

[Nick's Picks]

None of them will be any guarantee for a good recording, you still need to know how to use them.

GUnnar

well what good are they then?
;-)

[DSatz]

I say use them if you have them. The sound quality in this type of microphone depends mainly on the capsule, and replacement KK 84 capsules (just like they used to be) are still available from Neumann as replacement parts. Unfortunately those capsules cost $600+ apiece, last I checked.

"They are getting an almost mythical reputation as they are now vintage stuff and will probably keep on rising in value"--in constant dollars (i.e. prices adjusted for inflation) their value has not increased, and the prices paid for some "vintage" microphones don't seem quite as dazzling when you look at them this way. For example when the KM 84 was introduced it cost 6 cents to mail a letter in the U.S., and now it costs 41 cents. The KM 84 was listed at $252 in Gotham Audio's 1969 price list, but in today's dollars that would be something like $1411. Good used KM 84s sell for only about half that amount.

The KM 140 and KM 184 use the same internal capsule parts (diaphragm and backplate) but ... well, you see how Martin Schneider from Neumann described this recently on http://www.neumann.com/forums/view.php?site=neumann&bn=neumann_micrec&key=1181210382 and in one other reply that follows that message.

Incidentally, I've measured KM 84 amplifiers carefully using a special "measurement test head" designed by Neumann for this purpose, and in every microphone of the series I've checked, the actual maximum SPL was several dB higher than what the printed specifications used to say. The maximum SPL for < 0.5% THD used to be given as 120 dB, but according to my tests they could well have specified 125 dB SPL. Also, the distortion curve doesn't hit a "brick wall" even then.

--best regards

[BobW]

I am crazy in that I hear a difference between the KM140s and the KM184s?
I seriously hear a difference in the low-end.
Perhaps it's just placement?
Or could it be body resonance?

[Nick's Picks]

i could never tell the difference personally.

[Busman Audio]

I have a set of KM84i's and love em.  I did some tests at home to see what I liked better the 140s or the 84i's. The 84s are much more neutral or flat through the frequency band. They seem to sound "just exactly perfect" to me. The 140s are awesome but I liked them more just for the active setup. I think the 84s sound much better on most anything to my ears and that could be the transformer.

I really want a set of KM54s. I think those are my personal Holy Grail mic.

Just wanted to give my 2 cents since I have owned both sets of mics at the same time. 

[Kyle]

I am crazy in that I hear a difference between the KM140s and the KM184s?
I seriously hear a difference in the low-end.
Perhaps it's just placement?
Or could it be body resonance?

I hear this difference in the low end as well. When I ran 184 > V2, the bass was sloppy if I didn't use the HPF2 (50hz, 6db/octave slope). With the 140s I never use the HPF and have tight, detailed, deep bass Seems to be a bit more evenly balanced across the entire spectrum. The 184 low-end seemed to 'encroach' on the higher frequencies.

I believe the electronics in the km100 body are different than in the 184, but the capsules are the same.

[DSatz]

Kyle, most people (including anyone at Neumann) don't hear any such difference, and there's no design intention nor physical reason for there to be any sonic difference between a KM 140 and a KM 184--especially anything as range-specific as a "difference in the low end."

I'm not doubting that you heard whatever you heard, but it's not anything that generally holds true for those two models. If you have a chance to recreate your experiment some time with other microphones of the same two models, I urge you to do so and let us know whether your impression is still the same, particularly if you aren't in the position of knowing which one is which until you've made up your mind as to which one has which kind of bass.

The only essential difference is that the KM 140 uses an active capsule arrangement with the FET first stage located in the (separable) capsule unit. But when you attach the "passive" capsules of the KM 18x series to their bodies (the KM 183/184/185 circuitry is all identical), the distance to the FET is about the same so even stray capacitance, etc., are just about the same in the two models.

As someone else mentioned there have been two generations of KM 184 circuitry, but their gain (and thus the sensitivity of the complete microphone), maximum SPL and frequency response are absolutely identical. The KM 140 in turn is identical to both generations of KM 184 in those same respects. The sole outward difference between the two generations of KM 184 is the equivalent noise level, which was reduced by 3 dB in about 2001, while the phantom power requirement increased correspondingly from 2.3 mA to 3.2 mA per microphone.

--best regards

[Kyle]

Thanks for all of the info
Always good to learn a bit. My experiences with the sloppy bottom end with the 184s may have been the product of boomy rooms. A blind recreation would be the best bet. One of these days

I need to run the 140s a bit more. I ran the 184s for a 2 1/2 years; I have only run the 140s a handful of times (with borrowed ak40s). I will be doing quite a bit of comparisons when I get some capsules and another deck

[kskreider]

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences.

Don't mind me.  I am just quoting this so that I can put it at the top of my "aspire to be" list of things to do in life. 

Ovu, that is quite and Neumann arsenal, if you don't mind one saying so out loud.

Chris, I agree that the 54's are something that might signify the end of a long search.

[twoodruff]

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences.

Don't mind me.  I am just quoting this so that I can put it at the top of my "aspire to be" list of things to do in life. 

Ovu, that is quite and Neumann arsenal, if you don't mind one saying so out loud.

indeed

I want some km245s

[Nick's Picks]

and I want the km86

[BWolf]

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences.

what?  no ak50s?    i wish i had the funds to buy every cap they offered.  well done!

[0vu]

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences.

Don't mind me.  I am just quoting this so that I can put it at the top of my "aspire to be" list of things to do in life. 

Ovu, that is quite and Neumann arsenal, if you don't mind one saying so out loud.

  Thanks.

I guess it is - and that's just the small diaphragm Neumanns 

[0vu]

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences.

what?  no ak50s?    i wish i had the funds to buy every cap they offered.  well done!

lol

No - and no AK45s either.

I used to have three AK50s but I only used them about twice so I sold them a few years ago when I needed money for something else. Never had any AK45s as I hardly ever have a use for a LF rolloff cardioid - and when I do I have a couple of KM85s anyway.

I should probably admit that recording things is a job for me rather than a hobby - otherwise I'd never be able to justify owning as many mics as I do. It's hard enough justifying it to my wife as it is 

[BWolf]

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences.

Don't mind me.  I am just quoting this so that I can put it at the top of my "aspire to be" list of things to do in life. 

Ovu, that is quite and Neumann arsenal, if you don't mind one saying so out loud.

  Thanks.

I guess it is - and that's just the small diaphragm Neumanns 

so lets hear the whole mic list.... neumanns and everything else...

[sygdwm]

anyone have pics of a low-pro km84i setup? i searched and came up fairly dry.

[TNJazz]

anyone have pics of a low-pro km84i setup? i searched and came up fairly dry.

What do you want for low-pro?

Best you can do is a KM184-like setup - two clips and the bodies in a Joe Meek/A20 style mount, I would think.

Can't remember whose post that was, but it's probably the most low-profile setup you'll achieve with the 84's.


EDIT:  Found it.      http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85879.msg1140547.html#msg1140547

[BWolf]

anyone have pics of a low-pro km84i setup? i searched and came up fairly dry.

What do you want for low-pro?

Best you can do is a KM184-like setup - two clips and the bodies in a Joe Meek/A20 style mount, I would think.

Can't remember whose post that was, but it's probably the most low-profile setup you'll achieve with the 84's.


EDIT:  Found it.      http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85879.msg1140547.html#msg1140547

yeah, there are no actives for the km84i.  the full bodies would have to be up there, not just the caps.  nothing really low pro about it...

[sygdwm]

anyone have pics of a low-pro km84i setup? i searched and came up fairly dry.

What do you want for low-pro?

Best you can do is a KM184-like setup - two clips and the bodies in a Joe Meek/A20 style mount, I would think.

Can't remember whose post that was, but it's probably the most low-profile setup you'll achieve with the 84's.


EDIT:  Found it.      http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85879.msg1140547.html#msg1140547

yeah, there are no actives for the km84i.  the full bodies would have to be up there, not just the caps.  nothing really low pro about it...

thanks dirk thats what i was looking for. i am aware the 84's are not active. i just wanted to use one shock.

[John Willett]

Ovu, that is quite and Neumann arsenal, if you don't mind one saying so out loud.

0VU has so much gear that I would be ecstatic just to have 10% of that amount - and it's all good stuff too

John

[twoodruff]

I have KM83, 84, 85, 88, and KM100/AK20, 30, 31, 40, and 43 mics/capsules and I'm pretty used to the sonic differences.

Don't mind me.  I am just quoting this so that I can put it at the top of my "aspire to be" list of things to do in life. 

Ovu, that is quite and Neumann arsenal, if you don't mind one saying so out loud.

  Thanks.

I guess it is - and that's just the small diaphragm Neumanns 

know where I can find a set of 84s?

[John Willett]

so lets hear the whole mic list.... neumanns and everything else...

0vu probably has more mics than the whole of the Taperssection Forum put together