Topic: newbee asking for recorder recommendation

[kuuan]

What an overwhelming site, a whole new world.

I am about to buy my first recorder and ask for your advice.

My use differs from most of you here as I will hardly will record loud concerts but mostly ‘ambient’ sound to be mixed with videos I take. This could be e.g birds singing in an otherwise quiet surroundings, if recording music it won’t be heavily amplified. I do my videos while travelling on the road for months at a stretch, therefore the recorder must be compact and easy to use.
Above all for it’s storage onboard and drag and drop functionality an H1xx is my favourite choice. With the iriver I’d not have to carry a stack of HiMDs or buy costly SDs if going the R-9 way as sometimes I may not have easy access to a computer to upload.
 
Recently I enquired at misticriver and minidisc.org forums and draw the conclusion that the preamp and ADC of the iriver might be slightly inferior to those of an HiMD. Some maintain that the difference is marginal, others advice to use the H1xx only with the optical in. However I was not planning to buy an ext. preamp and ADC. However if there is any  available which is small, light and not costly I’d consider. I’d not need phantom power as I’ll use an AT822, nor a batterie box which, if I understand correctly, is needed for loud sound source.

What is your take?

Which recorder would best meet my needs?

Or asking differently:

Is the difference of recording quality using mic-in between H1xx and an HiMD marginal and does not have relevance to me, even if trying to record ‘ambient’ sound in quiet surroundings?
Or, if not wanting to buy any external equipment, should I better get an HiMD?
Or is there any small, external preamp+ADC I could use with my AT822 to go into the H1xx?

( someone may wonder why I make the choice so difficult, well, I am travelling right now, can't just buy the other as well or exchange if getting the wrong thing)

[Brian Skalinder]

<1>  Is the AT822 the only piece of audio recording gear you own currently?  Just trying to get a lay of the land before thinking about options and recommendations.

<2>  What's your total budget for everything, whether it be recorder, preamp, etc.?  Reason I ask is it may be necessary to use an external preamp if you're recording very quiet ambient sounds.

<3>  Do you have access to power (electricity) for charging batteries, or do you need a recorder that takes commonly available batteries (like AA cells)?  This, of course, may impact recommendations.

<4>  I take it you plan to sync the audio with the video in post-production?

[svenkid]

speaking of ambient noise recordings, Id love to set up my u89s by a river for a few hours...

[balou2]

speaking of ambient noise recordings, Id love to set up my u89s by a river for a few hours...

I'd love to set up your u89's by a river too. 

sorry...


Is size a consideration?  You mention portable,  but are you looking for an "iRiver-type-size" or can you do bigger?

[kuuan]

<1>  Is the AT822 the only piece of audio recording gear you own currently?  Just trying to get a lay of the land before thinking about options and recommendations.

<2>  What's your total budget for everything, whether it be recorder, preamp, etc.?  Reason I ask is it may be necessary to use an external preamp if you're recording very quiet ambient sounds.

<3>  Do you have access to power (electricity) for charging batteries, or do you need a recorder that takes commonly available batteries (like AA cells)?  This, of course, may impact recommendations.

<4>  I take it you plan to sync the audio with the video in post-production?

ad<1> besides the AT822 I have socalled 'iriver Giant Squid mono omnis', two of them, recording to an iFP-799 , and a socalled VW-VMS2 Panasonic camcorder Mic. The AT822 usually records my Panasonic GS400 camcorder ( which does 16 bit recordings with level adjustments ) Very likely I will try to sell the Pana mic on ebay and I was thinking to get a socalled 'Videomic', which is a mono shotgun..but could get some other mics you recommend instead in case I reallly get into audio taping.

ad<2> I was thinking that 150 to 250 USD would be enough, but I am willing to spend a bit more...let's say 300 to 350 USD. Eventually, very likely soon, it will be more $$$ again anyway.., so, well, it could be more if I feel happy with what I get! Actually if you recommend an external preamp, on 'yard sale' there is a AD-20 with a Phantom, powering box thrown in which I was eyeing.. for 190, and an H1xx I could get for about 150 here in Japan..that could make a perfect match!

ad<3> usually  I'd have access to power, still AA or AAA certainly would be of advantage if e.g. while in south India the Akku dies with no substitute available.

ad<4> yes, I do!

it is very important that all together weighs little and takes little space, and looks nothing special or expensive....

WARNING:
bla.. bla.. follows from here on:
why should it rather look crapy?...well, that needs a long explanation and for the reason why I take long time to decide: I am in Japan now and will return to my home country Austria during october. I do carry a videocamera, adapter lenses, videolight, filters, tripod, monopod, the mics, the iFP-799 +++, everything I bought during the last 2 years somewhere in Asia, cost me abt. 2000 Euro what would have cost me 4000+ back in Europe, all never has been imported in Austria. Austrian customs officials are harsh, but to import all my stuff officially would be very difficult: many bills in japanese language, confusing, including other items bought for my friend, and a percentage bonus system on every item bought which are discounts for next buy, those are used again, some items bought via internet auction, some second hand without any proper bill,...wha.. I don't even want to think of all the troubles I had to go through if I wanted to declare everything officially. Less I want to imagine what would happen if I did not declare but they find the stuff. If it was not for this problem I'd go ahead and buy e.g. an RH10 for 150 USD and another H120 for the same prize, play with them, decide which one to keep and sell the other. Here in Japan I cannnot sell via internet though, only buy. Short, I don't want carry many more items I will have bought outside when entering Austria....since I will walk by the customs..
Stuff buying on ebay in the US is a problem too: for something bought  for 100USD one could end up paying 40USD for shipping and another 70!USD  or so for costums...

that AD-20 though...he says shipping included, well, to Austria he would charge me...but he'd have to put a VERY low price to pass austrian customs cheaply...

how big and heavy is the AD-20? well, better I wait what you recommend!

thank's so much for your help!

[F.O.Bean]

722

[kuuan]

722

I was afraid that '722' could be a coded forum language saying: 'this guy is talking way too much'

but no: just had a look at sound devices! WOW! MY recorder...in another 10 years?

[run_run_run]

If a JB3 is not to big, there is one in lawnsale for 100.

[Brian Skalinder]

ad<1> besides the AT822 I have socalled 'iriver Giant Squid mono omnis', two of them, recording to an iFP-799 , and a socalled VW-VMS2 Panasonic camcorder Mic. The AT822 usually records my Panasonic GS400 camcorder ( which does 16 bit recordings with level adjustments ) Very likely I will try to sell the Pana mic on ebay and I was thinking to get a socalled 'Videomic', which is a mono shotgun..but could get some other mics you recommend instead in case I reallly get into audio taping.

Of course, which mics you ultimately use will depend on which sound you prefer.  The camera-mounted mono shotgun mic will produce a very narrow, but more direct, sound.  IMO, not natural at all.  The omnis will pick up anything and everything, which in some cases may prove limiting.  I think the AT822 is the best compromise - some directionality, without killing the naturalness of the sound.

ad<2> I was thinking that 150 to 250 USD would be enough, but I am willing to spend a bit more...let's say 300 to 350 USD. Eventually, very likely soon, it will be more $$$ again anyway.., so, well, it could be more if I feel happy with what I get! Actually if you recommend an external preamp, on 'yard sale' there is a AD-20 with a Phantom, powering box thrown in which I was eyeing.. for 190, and an H1xx I could get for about 150 here in Japan..that could make a perfect match!

My immediate thought on seeing your post was...AT822 (powered internally) > Denecke AD-20 > iRiver H1xx via the optical input.  The AT822 is powered with an internal battery and does not accept external power, so you definitely do not need the phantom power box.

ad<3> usually  I'd have access to power, still AA or AAA certainly would be of advantage if e.g. while in south India the Akku dies with no substitute available.

The AD-20 runs on standard 9v batteries, which should prove easy to find.

it is very important that all together weighs little and takes little space, and looks nothing special or expensive....

IMO, the AD-20 and H1xx provides the single best option for price / performance / size / weight.  Other options may sound marginally better, but at a price - $$, size, weight, etc.

that AD-20 though...he says shipping included, well, to Austria he would charge me...but he'd have to put a VERY low price to pass austrian customs cheaply...

Yeah, it's common to include shipping on deliveries within the continental US, but charge for international shipping.  And you've hit on one of the challenges of buying abroad - getting hammered via customs.  If declaring a low value to clear customs cheaply, both buyer and seller incur additional risk.  For example, what happens if the shipment's lost or damaged?  The shipping insurance will not cover the cost of the gear.  Some sellers/buyers are willing to accept the risk, others not.

how big and heavy is the AD-20? well, better I wait what you recommend!

That is what I recommend.  AT822 > AD-20 > H1xx will provide -very- nice recordings.  And for ambient recordings, I really think you need a preamp for enough gain to get higher above the noise floor.  The AD-20 is about as small/light as you'll find in a preamp / AD combo with good sound.  Specs here.  The AT822 outputs a stereo signal via an XLR-male connector, and the AD-20s inputs are 2 x mono XLR-female connectors.  So the only additional piece you'd need is a stereo XLR-female > 2 x mono XLR-male adapter.  Perhaps others will chime in with their thoughts. 

[kuuan]

ad<1> besides the AT822 I have socalled 'iriver Giant Squid mono omnis', two of them, recording to an iFP-799 , and a socalled VW-VMS2 Panasonic camcorder Mic. The AT822 usually records my Panasonic GS400 camcorder ( which does 16 bit recordings with level adjustments ) Very likely I will try to sell the Pana mic on ebay and I was thinking to get a socalled 'Videomic', which is a mono shotgun..but could get some other mics you recommend instead in case I reallly get into audio taping.

Of course, which mics you ultimately use will depend on which sound you prefer.  The camera-mounted mono shotgun mic will produce a very narrow, but more direct, sound.  IMO, not natural at all.  The omnis will pick up anything and everything, which in some cases may prove limiting.  I think the AT822 is the best compromise - some directionality, without killing the naturalness of the sound.

good to know that I made a good choice with the AT822! (bought it last week only )

ad<2> I was thinking that 150 to 250 USD would be enough, but I am willing to spend a bit more...let's say 300 to 350 USD. Eventually, very likely soon, it will be more $$$ again anyway.., so, well, it could be more if I feel happy with what I get! Actually if you recommend an external preamp, on 'yard sale' there is a AD-20 with a Phantom, powering box thrown in which I was eyeing.. for 190, and an H1xx I could get for about 150 here in Japan..that could make a perfect match!

My immediate thought on seeing your post was...AT822 (powered internally) > Denecke AD-20 > iRiver H1xx via the optical input.  The AT822 is powered with an internal battery and does not accept external power, so you definitely do not need the phantom power box.!

hmm. thought that this could be a good option, but the AD-20 is not that small and weighs a bit, isn't it?

ad<3> usually  I'd have access to power, still AA or AAA certainly would be of advantage if e.g. while in south India the Akku dies with no substitute available.

The AD-20 runs on standard 9v batteries, which should prove easy to find.

yes!

it is very important that all together weighs little and takes little space, and looks nothing special or expensive....

IMO, the AD-20 and H1xx provides the single best option for price / performance / size / weight.  Other options may sound marginally better, but at a price - $$, size, weight, etc.

I might decide to buy a notebook which I will carry so I can do some editing while on the road. Would the fact that I carry a computer change your choice? In the specs of the AD-20 I even read that it also could be used to directly record to a computer. I don't understand which specs. the notebook would require for that though.

that AD-20 though...he says shipping included, well, to Austria he would charge me...but he'd have to put a VERY low price to pass austrian customs cheaply...

Yeah, it's common to include shipping on deliveries within the continental US, but charge for international shipping.  And you've hit on one of the challenges of buying abroad - getting hammered via customs.  If declaring a low value to clear customs cheaply, both buyer and seller incur additional risk.  For example, what happens if the shipment's lost or damaged?  The shipping insurance will not cover the cost of the gear.  Some sellers/buyers are willing to accept the risk, others not.

PM'd to the seller, there could be some solution...

how big and heavy is the AD-20? well, better I wait what you recommend!

That is what I recommend.  AT822 > AD-20 > H1xx will provide -very- nice recordings.  And for ambient recordings, I really think you need a preamp for enough gain to get higher above the noise floor.  The AD-20 is about as small/light as you'll find in a preamp / AD combo with good sound.  Specs here.  The AT822 outputs a stereo signal via an XLR-male connector, and the AD-20s inputs are 2 x mono XLR-female connectors.  So the only additional piece you'd need is a stereo XLR-female > 2 x mono XLR-male adapter.  Perhaps others will chime in with their thoughts.

Do you think that the H1xx AD-20 package certainly is superior to plugging the AT822 directly into an HiMD or into a Roland R-9?

HiMD: The HiMD's preamp seems to be better as many suspected: http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/himdmyths_meas.html resp. http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/index.html
R-9: The AT822 is the only quality mic I have so far. If recording with both the viceocam and the audio recorder at the same time the built-in mics  of the Roland- if their quality is decent -  could be of advantage.
If I'd  carry a notebook I'd not have to carry a stack of MDs or costly SD cards neither. 

[Brian Skalinder]

hmm. thought that this could be a good option, but the AD-20 is not that small and weighs a bit, isn't it?

The AD-20 is very small, as far as preamps and analog-to-digital converters go.  The only way you'll get smaller is by running the AT822 directly into a recorder and using its internal preamp and ADC.  I think the problem you'll run across with AT822 > recorder is that the recorder will not provide sufficient clean gain for ambient sound recording.  For LOUD concerts, maybe.  But doubtful for ambient sound recording.  I think either way, at a minimum you should use a preamp between the AT822 and the recorder.  The AD-20 provides the preamp, and also happens to handle the analog-to-digital conversion as well - all for a price below which you'd find another suitable preamp of similar quality, IMO.

I might decide to buy a notebook which I will carry so I can do some editing while on the road. Would the fact that I carry a computer change your choice? In the specs of the AD-20 I even read that it also could be used to directly record to a computer. I don't understand which specs. the notebook would require for that though.

Nah, wouldn't change my recommendation.  You could record straight to computer, but that's not exactly a compact setup, and optimizing your PC for recording takes some tech knowledge.  Battery life is also an issue - laptops are BIG battery hogs.

Do you think that the H1xx AD-20 package certainly is superior to plugging the AT822 directly into an HiMD or into a Roland R-9?

For recording very loud environments, AT822 > R09 may prove better.  I've not done a direct comparison, but I suspect that given the relatively high gain you'll want for recording fairly quiet ambient sounds, the AD-20s the way to go.  The H1xx, Hi-MD, and R09 recorders all provide some gain, but I doubt sufficient or clean enough gain.

HiMD: The HiMD's preamp seems to be better as many suspected: http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/himdmyths_meas.html resp. http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/index.html

IMO, that's one of the benefits of the AD-20:  you don't have to rely on a preamp built into the recorder.

If I'd  carry a notebook I'd not have to carry a stack of MDs or costly SD cards neither.

One of the good reasons to go with the H1xx - no media.  And the AD-20 should provide better gain and ADC relative to the H1xx (or MD, for that matter).

[tscales]

wow.

bravo to the excellent information excahange.  viva los tapersection

[petur]

if you go the iriver h1x0 route, don't forget to put rockbox on it
(see my sig)

[kuuan]

thank you very much Brian for all your input.
and there seems nobody around who disagrees with your recommendation.

The higher gain of an AD-20 will be of advantage and I shall feel like a half pro  . and I like iriver.

a few rather nick-pick questions:

I think the problem you'll run across with AT822 > recorder is that the recorder will not provide sufficient clean gain for ambient sound recording.  For LOUD concerts, maybe.  But doubtful for ambient sound recording.  I think either way, at a minimum you should use a preamp between the AT822 and the recorder.

would that mean that another mic -  expensive one? - could make the preamp obsolete?

Nah, wouldn't change my recommendation.  You could record straight to computer, but that's not exactly a compact setup, and optimizing your PC for recording takes some tech knowledge.  Battery life is also an issue - laptops are BIG battery hogs.

OK, I forget about the notebook idea...

For recording very loud environments, AT822 > R09 may prove better

would I always want to run AT822<AD-20<H1xx or could at some situations like loud sound AT822<H1xx be even better. or at least sufficient?

One of the good reasons to go with the H1xx - no media.

I always liked the HD of the H1xx. I also like the active and productive Rockbox community and ongoing development...
I dislike having to carry extra media and having to use extra soft for filetransfer. To be fair though an H1xx+AD-20 does make a much bigger bulk + weight than an HiMD only.

When I started to enquire the iriver H1xx was my favourite, but I must say the more I enquired the more the HiMDs conquered my heart as well. They seem to be the best quality low cost recorders if not using any external preamp/ADC.

Two days ago I was outbidded by 5 USD only for a RH10 and it sold cheaply for only 160 USD incl. extra charger and Sony XL81 earpuds! For now I seem to have to run out of luck on the iriver- auction front though: last week a H120 got sold for around 170 USD here, today's is up to 240 USD 5 hours before the auction ends....
a H140 is waiting in 3 days, now at 135 USD
Besides the HD, is there any other difference between the H120 and the H140? I remember having read that the H120 does take, as modification, max. a 40GB, but the H140, because double platter, max. a 80GB HD. How about mod. battery? Space for the same or more for a better one in the H140?
later edit: now the curiosity of a H100 with a 10GB HD showed up. Does this model have any drawback, esp. how much cost to upgrade it's HD? ( well, I should enquire at misticriver )

and Petur certainly I'd rockbox it. that is, if the optical in on Rockbox is finally working, but it is, isn't it?
Thank you very much for your efforts on Rockbox! Very likely I will need your help once I install it.

there is another thread of somebody enquiering about the connectors for the AT822 to the AD-20 needed: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67337.0

wondering how I will get those...

[Brian Skalinder]

would that mean that another mic -  expensive one? - could make the preamp obsolete?

I don't think so, no.

would I always want to run AT822<AD-20<H1xx or could at some situations like loud sound AT822<H1xx be even better. or at least sufficient?

I don't think it would be better.  Perhaps sufficient - depends on your tolerance for noise (e.g. hiss) in your recordings.  The AD-20 adds a minimum of +17 dB of gain, i.e. there's no way to add -less- than + 17 dB of gain.  So the only situation in which you may want to run AT822 > H1xx is if the sound source is SO LOUD that either the mic signal + 17 dB of gain AD-20 provides too much gain and causes the ADC to clip, or the mic overloads the AD-20s analog inputs (in which case it may also overload the H1xx analog inputs).

To be fair though an H1xx+AD-20 does make a much bigger bulk + weight than an HiMD only.

Not when you take into account the media, I don't think.

They seem to be the best quality low cost recorders if not using any external preamp/ADC.

That may very well be the case, and wouldn't surprise me - I get the sense that MDs were designed as recording devices, whereas the JB3 and H1xx were designed, first and foremost, as playback devices that also happen to record.

For now I seem to have to run out of luck on the iriver- auction front though

More will pop up.  I guess it depends on how long you're able to wait before picking one up.

Besides the HD, is there any other difference between the H120 and the H140? I remember having read that the H120 does take, as modification, max. a 40GB, but the H140, because double platter, max. a 80GB HD. How about mod. battery? Space for the same or more for a better one in the H140?
later edit: now the curiosity of a H110 with a 10GB HD showed up. Does this model have any drawback, esp. how much cost to upgrade it's HD? ( well, I should enquire at misticriver )

Sorry, I'm no help here.

there is another thread of somebody enquiering about the connectors for the AT822 to the AD-20 needed: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67337.0

From the AT822 specs, it looks like it comes with two cables:  <1> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced stereo 3.5mm male mini, and <2> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini.  If it were me, I'd make a custom cable, or have one made:  unbalanced stereo XLR-female > 2 x balanced XLR-male.  I believe options 13 or 17 from this PDF would do the trick.  Those options both deal with different connectors (1/4" and RCA, respectively) on the unbalanced end, but the theory's the same.  If you're not comfortable making one of these cables, you should be able to find someone on TS to make one for you, or find a local electronics shop that will make one for you.