Topic: Problems with R4

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Not on mine it didn't.   

Time to HDD upgrade.  Ran 4 channels of 24/96 onstage the other night and no errors.  The only time I've received the error is with the stock HDD (which only has a 2mb buffer    )
 
I'll put money on upgrading to a drive with at least a 8mb buffer will take care of all the problems.

My 0.0002

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

That goes without saying.  I was referring to the display.

The machine will not tell if you got an error if you weren't there when it happened.  FYI. 

well... i'm splitting hairs here, but sure it will.  HDD SLOW manifests itself as skipping audio.  if you hear it, the r4 is telling you that the error occurred.

it's not like an error log after the fact, which is what i think you're getting at, but if your audio skips, the hard drive wasn't able to keep up with the data flow.

[sleepypedro]

Not on mine it didn't.   

what model did you replace the stock unit with, mark?  busman recommended a particular model to me earlier this summer.  i upgraded mine after the stock drive died, and have had no issues whatsoever since.  i'll dig up the info if it'll help you.

[Busman Audio]

We tried a 16mb buffer 5400rpm drive in mark's to see if that would fix the problem and he had it again.

I am under the assumption that it is a quality control problem and not an issue that can be nailed down to one specific thing.

It seems to be somewhat random in its occurrence. Sometimes it happens on 4 channel 24x96 sometimes 2xstereo ( < I believe mark's did it) Sometimes bass heavy shows sometimes bluegrass.

I never had the problem and I tried to get it to happen at home so I could investigate further but to no avail.
I recorded 4x1 at 24/96 and tapped the unit continuously while recording reggae off of the studio monitors which I would think should make this problem arise and NOPE.

My advice is to never run 4x1 24/96 if you want to be sure you do not have problems. I do recommend a hard drive upgrade since I do think in most cases this will solve the problem.

Most gear out there has some type of glitch and when we run gear in the field we will encounter more problems than in a controlled environment so for me that is what I chalk it up to. I guess I have grown accustomed to issues while recording every once in a while

Sorry if this was a thread hijack. Return to your normally scheduled programming.

[OFOTD]

I'd like to know what the reasoning is behind recommending a HD upgrade Mark and Chris?    It seems like it's more of a shot in the dark solution than a verifiable solution.   

A 2MB buffer is PLENTY pipe for a 24/96 data stream.   Remember that the internal buffer is almost twice the size of what is user selectable.  Any backup in the data stream would occur there (internal flash bugger) and not on the HD size of the chain.   Also the reason why there is the slower RPM drive is really two fold.  First is for the power savings which is huge between even 5400 and 7200.  Secondly the slower RPM drives generate much less heat than the faster drives.

The stock drives in both the R4 and R4 Pro both well exceed the data transfer speeds necessary for our recording needs.   I just see most folks who have a problem that the suggestion is to replace the HD without any data or facts to back it up. 

Thoughts?

[Busman Audio]

User selectable buffer?

It is a fact that a faster drive with a bigger buffer will allow more data to be written to a drive without losing track of where it is in the platter.
This is a fact for all drives including CD and DVD drives. I thought that was common knowledge in the tech world.

A buffer is there to allow a drive to catch up to the data stream in the case that the drive has a small hiccup (vibrations)

These are the facts that I use as a tech everyday. I am also a computer technician so I get my facts from my years of experience and training.

Why is it that high end DAW software recommends certain drive speeds, latencies, and buffers.....   Because they need.

[OFOTD]

User selectable buffer?

It is a fact that a faster drive with a bigger buffer will allow more data to be written to a drive without losing track of where it is in the platter.
This is a fact for all drives including CD and DVD drives. I thought that was common knowledge in the tech world.

A buffer is there to allow a drive to catch up to the data stream in the case that the drive has a small hiccup (vibrations)

These are the facts that I use as a tech everyday. I am also a computer technician so I get my facts from my years of experience and training.

Why is it that high end DAW software recommends certain drive speeds, latencies, and buffers.....   Because they need.

The R4 Pro has a user selectable buffer (1 second to 9 seconds or so).

The speed of the platters and the drives ability to write data is still far greater what the data stream being written to them is.     The sustainable write speed far exceeds what the data speed would ever be at 24/96.   

So again I ask why is the suggestion to replace the hard drive when there are NO facts to back it up as being the reason for the problems?


EDIT TO ADD:   tapermark's former R4 is a good example.  He has stated that he had the drive replaced and still had issues.     I'm all for replacing the drive to a bigger one if that fixes the problem but up until right now there is no proof of a new drive fixing things just alot of hearsay.

[BJ]

I know nothing of the user selectable, b/c i didn't have a pro model.  However,
If you are writing 2x stereo tracks at 24/96 (4 total tracks) then you are writing over 1MB per second.  that is over half of your available buffer.  A one second skip, and you have lost data. b/c you can't buffer the next seconds worth of data, b/c you don't have room.  simple math.

[OFOTD]

Whatever you will never get it.

Chris I am not trying to bust your balls here.  I am trying to understand yours and others reasonings. 

You seem to see alot of these units Chris.  Tell me what leads you to believe that replacing the hard drive is the cure for the problem?  People have spent $1000 or $2000 bucks on these units and the stock answer from you and others is "Replace the hard drive"  well all I want to know is why?  What facts lead you to that conclusion?      

The HD slow issue turned out to be a firmware issue and not a hardware issue although there is considerable documentation from Roland about vibration and sound pressure.  Vibrations seem to now be a potential issue for ANY hard drive based recorder and not just the R4/R4 Pro.  tapermark's problems were not solved by replacing the hard drive it seems.  Its not like this one particular HD is affected by vibration and pressure. 

I know nothing of the user selectable, b/c i didn't have a pro model.  However,
If you are writing 2x stereo tracks at 24/96 (4 total tracks) then you are writing over 1MB per second.  that is over half of your available buffer.  A one second skip, and you have lost data. b/c you can't buffer the next seconds worth of data, b/c you don't have room.  simple math.

You are right it is simple math.  The part of the equation that you have left out though is that both the R4 and R4 Pro have internal buffers as well as the buffer on the HD.   They call it pre-record buffer.  On the R4 Pro you can select how many seconds of buffer to use.  On the R4 it is predefined but from memory I believe it is 4 seconds at24/96 as it the actual seconds  depend on the bit and sample rates.  So then by using that math the bottleneck is actually at the internal buffer and not the HD buffer because it is assumed that the HD will have a few seconds to catch itself up because the internal buffer is taking care of well the buffering.

Here is a link to a PDF from Roland about the issue of sound pressure and vibration:  http://lib.roland.co.jp/manual/en/dl_06-13047/R-4_l_onatu_je1.pdf

[Busman Audio]

Well if it was the internal buffer on the units then it should have been a simple firmware revision.

I know you think I am just guessing and on Mark's drive I  did take a shot in the dark to try a new drive I had not used in the past. As I stated before we run our gear in the field and there are too many variables to guaranty that the problem will never reoccur. So my professional opinion is that the upgraded drives should cure the problem but there is a chance that you will encounter variables that cause the problem to happen again.

All of the other upgraded drives have not had the problem since and even on machines that had it with the stock drive.

So the way I see it is that people come to me for advice and with my experience I give the answer that goes along with all of my knowledge and experience. Yes that part is professional opinion.

The drive stats are a fact and that is why I have posted about it multiple times in the past.

Also the newer faster notebook drives should not use more power and the heat they generate is negligible.

I did not see any change in battery life from stock to a 60GB 7200RPM 8MB buffer drive and that is a fact.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Whatever we agree on or don't agree on HD wise the fact remains.  My R4 sucked ass and they (Roland) could care less.  Sounds like I'm not the only one.  Seen a lot more of these posts lately.  What other thing could you try but replace the HDD?  That's the only replacable thing in the machine.

[Brian Skalinder]

the fact remains.  My R4 sucked ass and they (Roland) could care less.  Sounds like I'm not the only one.  Seen a lot more of these posts lately.

Well, they cared about mine, and replaced it outright.  Not sure I've seen any other posts about people failing to have their issues resolved by Roland.  But maybe you mean HDD SLOW issues generally, and not necessarily support from Roland?

[OFOTD]

  What other thing could you try but replace the HDD?  That's the only replacable thing in the machine.

Totally agree with you Mark that the HD seems to be the easiest part to replace (aside from the work Chris and Doug do). 

My point as I have conveyed it to Chris via PM is that personally I find it irresponsible of anyone to just say to replace a hard drive without any reason other that it sounds like a good idea.

I know you had a bad experience with your unit of which i'm sure there are bound to be others.  It just seems to me that the replace hard drive answer is just alot of us guessing and not really knowing what the true problem is or where the problem is happening.  That is all i'm trying to get to the bottom of.  What is the true problem and where is the true part or section of the units that are causing or contributing to the problem.  Up until this point we still don't have an answer just alot of guesses.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Yes I meant the HDD slow issue.  And you were lucky Brian.  Your's happened rather qickly after buying it.  Mine happened almost a year later.  They told me in March I was shit out of luck.  I might note the deck was only 13 months old at that point.

the fact remains.  My R4 sucked ass and they (Roland) could care less.  Sounds like I'm not the only one.  Seen a lot more of these posts lately.

Well, they cared about mine, and replaced it outright.  Not sure I've seen any other posts about people failing to have their issues resolved by Roland.  But maybe you mean HDD SLOW issues generally, and not necessarily support from Roland?

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

I wish we could find the answer out but without trying things one will never know.  Edirol certainly was no help to me.  And it seems the HDD replacement HAS worked for people...which upsets me even more really. 

And I'm not upset about the drive.  Bought me a little FW enclosure and now have a nice little 744 dump for the field.   

  What other thing could you try but replace the HDD?  That's the only replacable thing in the machine.

Totally agree with you Mark that the HD seems to be the easiest part to replace (aside from the work Chris and Doug do). 

My point as I have conveyed it to Chris via PM is that personally I find it irresponsible of anyone to just say to replace a hard drive without any reason other that it sounds like a good idea.

I know you had a bad experience with your unit of which i'm sure there are bound to be others.  It just seems to me that the replace hard drive answer is just alot of us guessing and not really knowing what the true problem is or where the problem is happening.  That is all i'm trying to get to the bottom of.  What is the true problem and where is the true part or section of the units that are causing or contributing to the problem.  Up until this point we still don't have an answer just alot of guesses.

And I really am not trying to hate on the R4.  I loved mine when it fuctioned and it's a ton easier to operate than the 744 let me tell ya.  I just wish Edirol could find the cause of the problem or should I say want to find the cause...