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Offline HealthCov Chris

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LD vs SD hyper cards?
« on: May 09, 2016, 01:51:15 PM »
Background: 
I recently posted a thread inquiring about some multi-pattern LD mics as I am potentially interested in getting a pair to go along with my AKG 460s with CK61 caps.  I received lots of thoughtful responses which helped me identify which large diaphragm mics I would consider, if I go that route.  I understand many of the pros and cons of the LD setup and have my reasons for wanting a pair, but not sure if its the way to go now as what I really need is a hypercardioid option.  I am looking for more clarity and detail when recording in boomy venues or when set up far from the stage, and figured getting some multi-pattern LDs would kill two banjo players with one stone.

Essentially, I can pay roughly $600 for a pair of hypercard caps (CK63) for my AKG 460s, or put that money towards a pair of LD multi-pattern mics.  I also realize there are several price points for new and used LD multi-pattern mics that could get me the hypercard option i'm looking for. 

My primary confusion or lack of knowledge here is that I don't know how the hypercard option varies between the SD and LD mics.

Also, is there much difference between the hypercard and supercard caps, as many LD multi-pattern mics have the Supercard and not the Hypercard option?

So to sum this up in a nutshell...I definitely want to add the hypercardioid option to my rig, and I also want the LD option at some point.  But, I don't know of i'm going to get the added detail/clarity from a LD hypercard/supercard that I would get from adding the CK63 to my AKG 460s.  Ultimately, money is an issue and I want a pair of LD multi-pattern mics, but am totally willing to wait if I can expect better performance from the CK63s.  I appreciate all feedback and advice.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 01:53:14 PM by CorFit Chris »
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Offline acidjack

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 02:55:59 PM »
Jon's answer is concise and accurate. My more anecdotal answer would be "the C414 hypercard setting sounds 'not very good' while the CK63 sounds 'good to very good.'"

I don't see it as an apples to apples comparison. As Jon noted, having a 9-pattern mic is its own kind of benefit. But I would not buy a C414 so as to mainly enjoy the hyper setting on it....
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 02:58:37 PM »
Get the caps.

LD mics sound excellent but they're not good for taming a boomy room.  I dig 'em for acoustic performances but the diaphragms tend to wobble a bit at amplified shows.  They're not going to clean anything up even running them with the hypercardiod pattern. 

If you're equipping your home studio and want some mics for various purposes I'd say the LD's are worth the investment but for recording PA systems.... not so much.

YMMV.
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 02:59:03 PM »
Buy the ck63's... 

Down the road, buy some ADK TLs...

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 06:52:57 PM »
Also, is there much difference between the hypercard and supercard caps, as many LD multi-pattern mics have the Supercard and not the Hypercard option?

I don't know if there's an exacting standard as to what constitutes a hyper- vs. super- cardioid pattern, but the general consensus seems to be that the hyper is a touch narrower, the super a touch wider pattern.  The two tend to be used interchangeably. 

That aside, I'm finding myself agreeing with the other posters in this thread: for your purposes you'd likely be better served with SDC hyper/super capsules.  Much as I love my 414s and have used their hyper pattern on many occasions, they can't compete with the SDC hyper/super capsules I have. 

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2016, 09:37:05 AM »
In terms of pattern shape, I think of a supercardioid as being a one step away from cardioid (tigher in front) with a relatively small reverse-polarity rear lobe.  I think of a hypercardioid as being one step away from figure 8 (wider in front) with a somewhat larger reverse-polarity lobe. 

However, assuming both sound equally good on their own terms, and that both are well behaved with their patterns remaining well defined across the full frequency range of intrest (two large assumptions!) the defining differences for me in choosing one over the other are three-
1) Where the cancellation nulls point (the specific directions in which the microphone is least sensitive)- for a supercard that's somewhere around 125 degrees off-axis, for a hypercardioid it's more like 110 degrees, whereas it's 90 degrees for an 8, and 180 degrees for a cardioid.
2) How even the difference in sensitivity is on average across the entire back hemisphere.  A Supercardioid has a more even distribution across the back hemisphere in aggregate than a cardioid or hypercardioid.  In that way it is somewhat akin to a subcardioid in terms of its collective overall off-axis behavior, even though it is a far tighter, forward-biased pattern.  It provides high on-axis sensitivity with the most even off-axis sensitivity across the rear hemisphere.
3) Hypercardioid maximizes the directivity coefficient above all else, which is the difference in sensitivity between sound arriving on-axis (directly ahead) verses sound arriving from all other directions in aggregate.  It provides the maximum forward sensitivity possible, but at the cost of a rear facing hot-spot which makes for decidedly more pickup from directly behind the microphone than a supercardioid.

Sennheiser's choice of a supercarioid pattern which lies partway between a traditional supercardioid and hypercardioid, so that it provides the same -9.5 dB reduced sensitivity at both 90/270 degrees and 180 degrees off -axis, walks the line between these aspects.  See their explanation here- https://www.bblist.co.uk/pdf/sennheiser/supercard.pdf
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 01:09:30 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2016, 10:56:03 AM »
My opinion having a pair of Beyer hypers (M201E- used to own M201B) and owning a pair of 460's with no hyper cap, but running with kindms 414's having used Hyper pattern infrequently, given your main preference in this thread I say go with the ck63 caps.
Aside from that basic opinion, The 414's and other LD's do have great uses, I really like the smooth LD characteristics using Omni patterns, especially outdoors. When we were at Greyfox Bluegrass Festival last year, all three of the major Bluegrass tapers we met owned 414s and Schoeps supercards which they deploy using the 414 Omnis spread wide with the Schoeps Supercards in the middle aimed in DIN or PAS. To be clear, that is an outdoor situation. Taping from a loud rock n roll PA, if you're choosing between well defined LD Omni Hypercardiods response vs well defined AKG SD Hypercardiods I would go Hypers in NORTF or crossed at 110 to reduce the rearward pickup SD.

edited for accuracy-given the below, and given this discussion is about choosing Hypercardiod mics- my edits are in bold next to the strike through original.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 03:36:56 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2016, 11:58:54 AM »
Please remember that a dual capsule LD microphone's "omni" pattern isn't really an omni, but rather two cardioids back to back.

There are only two kinds of microphones, after all,  pressure-operated (omnidirectional) and pressure-gradient (figure-8).
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2016, 02:01:55 PM »
Please remember that a dual capsule LD microphone's "omni" pattern isn't really an omni, but rather two cardioids back to back.

There are only two kinds of microphones, after all,  pressure-operated (omnidirectional) and pressure-gradient (figure-8).
Since I explain this stuff often to people, I found this to be a useful cite in explaining the difference between Pressure and Pressure Gradient mics:
http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/may08/articles/technotes.htm

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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2016, 03:09:10 PM »
I actually think the 63s are the only decent SD hyper cap outside 41s. Others just sound too thin to me. Do like the TL in hyper mode.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 10:54:22 AM by MakersMarc »
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2016, 11:00:10 PM »
If going with LD vs SD, I would def go with the SD ck63s too! I agree with what everyone else is saying! Not only does the ck63 sound more consistent, its also MUCH smaller than a 414/LD/etc. ;D Add the fact that you can now get AKG actives/PFAs for your ck63's, and its a clear winner IMO!

It does depend what type of recording you're doing too tho! The 414 hyper would probably sound amazing with acoustic stuff up close! But for PA taping, the ck6x are the winner IMO!
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 03:13:40 AM »
http://www.coutant.org/nakamich/

I've heard fine LD distant recordings, just be sure that the back lobes are:
1) up against the rear wall...
2) open to infinity, such as a ski or pavilion venue

The enemy of the hyper is the strong-ish rear lobe and the hockey-rink, footbal stadium, or echoic club venue where high rear spl are present.
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 09:31:36 AM »
I am not as educated in all the technical aspects of this as others in this thread.  But I have run three sets of  hypers and like my LD hypers the best.  I have run MBHO KA500, Neumann AK50 and Neumann U89 and the LD 89's are my favorite hands down.  Now granted there is a big difference between these three sets of mics.  But from reading your threads it seems like you want to get a pair of LD mics to mess around with, so just go for it.  You don't need us to help justify it.  I don't understand why so many people seem afraid of running LD mics in the field, I wonder if they have experience with it or are just making assumptions.  For the money they are less expensive than buying SD and all the caps.  So you make one purchase and can run any number of configurations.  For me the size isn't an issue and you are never going to know what you like until you try it yourself.  Go with your gut, don't compromise and if you don't like them just sell them and try something different.         
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2016, 10:15:09 AM »

I run my ADK TLs in hyper almost all the time. It's the pattern that sounds best out of the four available. Running them in hyper XY when close to the stage, within 20 feet, gives an eerie, almost being there, surround type sound. It is almost like running Blumlein but with some attenuation at the rear.

I had hypers for my Pelusos - least favorite
I had 63s for my JW mod 460s - favorite, very directional and have that high end sizzle
Ran my friend's mk41s a few times - excellent for boomy rooms and very smooth
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Offline Jammin72

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2016, 12:13:04 PM »
http://www.coutant.org/nakamich/

I've heard fine LD distant recordings, just be sure that the back lobes are:
1) up against the rear wall...
2) open to infinity, such as a ski or pavilion venue

The enemy of the hyper is the strong-ish rear lobe and the hockey-rink, footbal stadium, or echoic club venue where high rear spl are present.

This is an interesting take.  I've always hated being at the wall because of the inevitable bass slap echo that's created there but the idea of eliminating the rear lobe does make me wonder about using a rear baffle further up in the room.  I wonder what kind of havoc it may or may not play with the rest of the polar pattern.
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2016, 01:00:05 PM »
Directional mics can behave in unpredictable ways when overly close to a reflective boundary.  I don't think you can boundary mount a directional mic directly onto the wall and have it work correctly unless arranged so that the mic's primary axis is parallel to the wall, but that only works on the back wall if you are pointing the mics directly sideways, 180 degrees apart.  All available directional boundary microphones as well as boundary mounts for standard directional mics that I'm aware of orient the microphone in such a way so that the microphone's primary pickup axis is parallel to the boundary surface, "glancing across it" rather than pointing outwards from it.

If I'm up against the back wall I'd seriously consider boundary mounted omnis which work surprisingly well from further away than one might think and in rooms which would seem inappropriate for that.

Hypers can work further back, just like near-spaced 8's can.  It's situation and room dependent.  If using a minimal angle between the microphones hypers will pickup more sound arriving from directly behind, but less from the sides than either a cardioid or supercard.  That could be advantageous if recording in a long but narrow room with slap echo from the sides yet less problematic 'verb from behind.  There was a music venue around here which was like that (City Limits in Delray Beach, the second one, now gone for a number of years).  That room was tall and very deep but rather narrow with hard concrete walls and loud bars to either side of the otherwise prime center recording location.  If not recording from onstage or up very close, this kind of strategy would've applied there.  I planned to try near spaced 8's there for that reason, but usually arranged to record from on stage or up close and didn't get the chance to do this from further back before they closed.

Like Jon mentions a baffle only works at mid and high frequencies unless it's massively large.  In a seated venue with an empty front row and the mics setup up close but low, the seat backs of the front row will reduce audience noise somewhat like a rear baffle.  In audible terms it sort of reduces the presence of the audience and pushes them further away so they no longer sound "closer and louder than the music" during applause and during the quiet parts.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:46:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 04:08:13 PM »
CorFit Chris,
Have we confused you enough? lol.
Further confusion: What airbladder says should counter what I said. He says try the LD's, I said earlier, specifically for your Hyper question, go with SD's. I will then add to what airbladder says in the affirmative.
If what you want to try are LD mics, buy some and see how they work in your situations. My opinion was a direct contrast between the 414 Hyper setting vs using my Beyer M201's. I have never owned ck63's, but of course have heard recordings made with them. kindms can chime in here, but he usually says the LD's are smooth and buttery while he feels more "attack" using the 460's. I feel that is one basic difference between LD's and SD's. The size of the transducers just make it so the LD's have a "larger, smoother" tonality than SD's. I can't recall if it is the Schoeps or Neumann designer who claims LD's have no place in live recording. Whichever one it is, they are of course, opinionated toward their research and designs.

In the end, we all tape in different environments with different acoustics and varying types of music; when it comes to choosing mics, you have to go with your gut not head sometimes!
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2016, 04:59:34 PM »
SD's typically have better behaved polar patterns than switchable LDs.  That's Jörg Wuttke's (Schoeps) argument for SDs over LDs.  Does that matter for us?  Not if you like the the recordings you are making with your favorite LD, but it is a factor to be considered.  Most important is how each mic performs of all those actually under consideration.

The super/hyper position on the ADK-TL is a favorite among tapers (myself included) for good reason. It works great, sounds great and the mics are well built and inexpensive.  I suggest finding a pair of TLs for $500-$700 bucks and see how LDs work for you.  They may be all you ever want or need. 

If you want to try other things, then you can pickup some SDs like the AKG 63's or sell them and move on to more expensive LDs like the Neumanns or more expensive SDs like Schopes, etc.  But the TLs are an inexpensive way to try LDs, and they have a great color-free transparent sound.  They have been a favorite around here for more than a decade for good reason.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 05:02:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2016, 09:21:45 AM »
a cuppla things:

- There are nice, clear textbook definitions for the terms "supercardioid" and "hypercardioid" but most manufacturers use them only as general indications. People are more familiar with the term "hypercardioid" so manufacturers tend to prefer it. Most microphones that claim to have either pattern actually fall somewhere between the two, often closer to supercardioid. I'm not sure that I even know of any actual hypercardioid microphone on the market today; if there is one, its pattern would resemble a lop-sided figure-8, with its rear lobe only 6 dB less sensitive than its main/front lobe rather than the more typical 10 or 11 dB.

- Very few microphones have the same pattern at all frequencies. The biggest single thing I wish everyone understood about microphones is this: When the pattern of a microphone differs at different frequencies, then correspondingly, that microphone's frequency response will differ from its "official" frequency response as a function of the angles at which sound arrives. There can't be one without the other. When manufacturers give the "pattern" of a microphone, they're usually describing its midrange behavior (1 kHz), but there are enormous differences among microphones as to how well the pattern is maintained across the frequency spectrum. That's a critical characteristic for live, on-location stereo recording with only two microphones.

Studios, on the other hand, don't usually use microphones in closely-spaced or coincident pairs. They don't care whether the type of microphone that they use for vocal soloists will work for X/Y or M/S or ORTF. People who do what we do should be wary about being influenced by the mike choices that studios make for solo voices or instruments. If you're going to look at the choices studio engineers make for their microphones, the place to look instead would be, what do they use for "room mikes" (= overall miking, which is sometimes used as the basis for a mix).

- People talk about LD vs. SD, and that's an important distinction, but single- vs. dual-diaphragm capsules is at least equally important. Nearly all large-diaphragm condensers have dual-diaphragm capsules--and as a result of this near-total overlap in categories, many people misidentify the characteristics that each of those two categories causes. Single-diaphragm capsules often have better pattern consistency across the audio spectrum (i.e. the quality that matters most, next to frequency response, for stereo pickup with two coincident or closely spaced microphones), while in the range of patterns we're talking about right now, dual-diaphragm microphones often have more bass. The thing is, you can add bass in post (or even in real time while recording), but you can't equalize away a bad polar pattern.

And actually I was too lenient in what I said two sentences ago: No large-diaphragm, dual-diaphragm capsule can ever (according to the laws of physics) have pattern consistency equal to that of a good small, single-diaphragm capsule. So if you're determined to use large-diaphragm microphones, you should understand that you're cutting yourself off from the technically superior choices for two-mike stereo location recording.

You may well get "more bass" from the dual-diaphragm mikes in this part of the pattern range; many small "hypercardioids" are designed primarily for dialog recording or other speech pickup (whether they're labeled that way or not), and have rolled-off low-frequency response. But with dual-diaphragm microphones the patterns "bloom" (spread out) at low frequencies, which will causes a closely-spaced or coincident pair of such microphones to pick up bass in nearly equal amounts and in phase. As a result the bass gets reproduced in mono or near-mono, greatly reducing the spaciousness of the recording. One really good thing about microphones that maintain a narrow directional pattern down to the lowest audio frequencies is that the bass that is picked up, even though it may be less loud, will be less "correlated" (similar in content and arrival time) between the stereo channels. You can boost that kind of bass in post or playback, and within reason, it won't sound boomy or artificial. Whereas if your bass pickup is ample but mono, there isn't much you can do to make that sound as good.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 08:44:02 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2016, 05:51:56 PM »
There is no slap echo or nodal response if your mic is *on* the wall.  Near the wall can get a bit dangerous.

Baffles are only effective according to their size, so you aren't likely to bring a big enough baffle to make a difference at low frequencies.  If you only want to cut down on rear chatter, they might be somewhat effective.

In practice, there are a few darn good recordings...  one of Bela Fleck & the Flecktones with AKG 414s from the rear wall of Irving Plaza, another of David Gans with a few members of Railroad Earth from the back wall of a house party 
Not touching the wall, but somewhere between one and three feet in front of it.

I remember seeing these and wanting a pair of spaced Crown PZM boundry mics to wall mount for comparison.


http://www.amazon.com/Crown-PZM6D-Pressure-Boundary-Microphone/dp/B00AAO9SR2/

But I digress...

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 08:28:14 PM »
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Offline HealthCov Chris

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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2016, 01:40:27 PM »
CorFit Chris,
Have we confused you enough? lol.
In the end, we all tape in different environments with different acoustics and varying types of music; when it comes to choosing mics, you have to go with your gut not head sometimes!

Ha, I've learned to prepare myself for responses on this site.  Actually, all of this info is what I was hoping for.  I like all the encouragement towards the ADK TL, but my budget insists on a financing option as I am completely unable to save money with a hobby like this.  I am going to get a pair of LD multi-pattern mics for diversity sake.  Thinking about AKG 314.

However, I am wondering if a solution to my current issue of wanting more vocal clarity in "less than perfect" conditions would be to put a single shotgun mic in the middle of my AKG 460s (ck61).  Any thoughts on this?
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Re: LD vs SD hyper cards?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2016, 02:11:19 PM »
CorFit Chris,
Have we confused you enough? lol.
In the end, we all tape in different environments with different acoustics and varying types of music; when it comes to choosing mics, you have to go with your gut not head sometimes!

Ha, I've learned to prepare myself for responses on this site.  Actually, all of this info is what I was hoping for.  I like all the encouragement towards the ADK TL, but my budget insists on a financing option as I am completely unable to save money with a hobby like this.  I am going to get a pair of LD multi-pattern mics for diversity sake.  Thinking about AKG 314.

However, I am wondering if a solution to my current issue of wanting more vocal clarity in "less than perfect" conditions would be to put a single shotgun mic in the middle of my AKG 460s (ck61).  Any thoughts on this?
Check out Gutbuckets oddball mic techniques thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.0
OPvewr the last 4-6 pages he/we have been discussing center channel mic's. To meet teh criteria of teh stereo zoom typically that uses Omnis on the outside with either one card or supercard in the middle facing forward (and he has tried a card/supercard facing backward too.) From actual experience, I can tell you we (kindms and I) have uised an AKG ck8(460 body) in the middle a few times, twice using it as the MID mic with an AKG414XLS/ST fig 8 pattern as the SIDE. We have also tried the ck8 in the middle with two 414's split in Omni as a three mic mix. We liked that mix very much. I suspect using cards split with a ck8 in the middle might pull in the vocals or center imaging as you ask, however, the cardiod outside them would have a more directional L/R than using Omnis (inherently). That said, here are lionks to each of the shotgun blends I mentioned:
Deep Banana Blackout 2015 CK8 in middle with 414 fig 8 as side: https://archive.org/details/dbb2015-10-11.MS_flac24
Phil n Friends: 414's split Omni ck8 middle: https://archive.org/details/phil2016-03-15.414ck8.flac24
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