Topic: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4

[Brian]

oh good god it's just hobby taping for the sake of pete!

i think skalinder's post points out why taper's like these comps

[Brian Skalinder]

If your going to do a test to see what preamp is better. You cant use two different sets of mics. I would never dream of doing a test like that never mind that the mics are not in position. This is a basic principal of doing an evaluation you must have the same source and the mics must be the same in order to really know what the preamps are doing. Placing mics even centimeters apart produces a difference in sound quality. So how can you know if the differences that are being heard are the differences in mic placement or the differences in the microphones or the differences in the preamps?? You cant... So the test is not valid. It might show that two different sets of mics sound different and two different sets of mics placed close together sound different but dont we already know that? so why do a test where the results are already known? we know that if we use two different sets of mics its going to sound different. So I rest my case I am not trying to pick on anyone I am just stating a simple fact.

Chris, I'm well aware of how to contruct a well controlled comparison.  The fact is that doing so - for many of us - is difficult to do because of lack of access to all the necessary gear and proper environment.  We must compromise on -something- no matter what - whether it's precise controls or the environment in which we would prefer to perform the test.  So we do the best we can with what we have, in the environments available to us.  For many of these tests, we're talking about Good Enough quality / control, not Perfect.  Even Good Enough tests can help inform us as long as we take into consideration the variables in play.

Totally rough analogy, I know it's not perfect, but it still illustrates one point I'm trying to make:  Think of the NASA missions to Mars.  By landing robots in two locations on Mars, and moving them around a bit, we capture a limited amount of information about the Mars environment.  Even though the data capture methods we use aren't as good as they could be due to various compromises, we still use the data as best we're able - acknowledging the compromises we've made - to draw conclusions about the broader Mars environment, both current and historical.  It's not perfect, but it's the best we can do at a point in time.

These types of comps, while not perfect, are the best we can do at a point in time and as long as we acknolwedge the compromises we must make and take them into consideration when forming our opinions.

[willndmb]

maybe someone could use these and due a comp
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,64289.0.html
that would be legit in this situation correct?

[Church-Audio]

maybe someone could use these and due a comp
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,64289.0.html
that would be legit in this situation correct?

Its not ideal but it would work. The reason I say its not ideal us because your loading down the preamps inputs with another preamp. That being said they ARE BOTH getting loaded down, so I think that the negative effects of the splitter would not create an uneven playing field because they would effect both preamps the same way. I think that would be a good start. The only thing left to do would be to calibrate the outputs of the preamp so they were exactly the same. And conduct the test with a live band or a cd what ever.

[Brian]

i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

[Todd R]

i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

I hardly ever get a chance to make and sell cables anymore and I've stopped doing mods, so hopefully people won't take this as some sort of way-biased comment, but:

I don't agree with you here.  People on the board trying to make mods available or sell good cables at a good cost do not have the resources to make perfectly scientifically valid comparisons.  And they almost certainly will not have the resources to publish any kind of meaningful specs.  I can't get that level of information from a huge company like Monster Cable, why should I expect it from someone here?

As Brian Ska says, try to make the tests as valid as possible, let people know how they were done, and let people make their own judgements.  Easier to make controlled living room tests, but people often like to hear tests done in the field -- meaning of PA recordings, so having those comps available makes sense.  I'd rather 2 sets of high end mics be used rather than splitter cables and the ensuing effects on impedence, etc, but that's just me.

Not perfect, but still better than what you get from Monster Cable.  Use the comps, seller reputation, word of mouth, feedback on ts.com and make a decision on whether to buy.  Plus borrow a set of cables or a modded recorder and try them out for yourself.  I know I've got a set of loaner cables somewhere floating around as part of the gear loaner library for people to try out, and I think others have done the same.

I think whatever comps we can get are a nice bonus, but it seems unrealistic to me to think we should have access to the results of scientifically valid tests and published specs, esp when you can't get the same from major cable making corporations.

[OFOTD]

i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

I hardly ever get a chance to make and sell cables anymore and I've stopped doing mods, so hopefully people won't take this as some sort of way-biased comment, but:

I don't agree with you here.  People on the board trying to make mods available or sell good cables at a good cost do not have the resources to make perfectly scientifically valid comparisons.  And they almost certainly will not have the resources to publish any kind of meaningful specs.  I can't get that level of information from a huge company like Monster Cable, why should I expect it from someone here?

As Brian Ska says, try to make the tests as valid as possible, let people know how they were done, and let people make their own judgements.  Easier to make controlled living room tests, but people often like to hear tests done in the field -- meaning of PA recordings, so having those comps available makes sense.  I'd rather 2 sets of high end mics be used rather than splitter cables and the ensuing effects on impedence, etc, but that's just me.

Not perfect, but still better than what you get from Monster Cable.  Use the comps, seller reputation, word of mouth, feedback on ts.com and make a decision on whether to buy.  Plus borrow a set of cables or a modded recorder and try them out for yourself.  I know I've got a set of loaner cables somewhere floating around as part of the gear loaner library for people to try out, and I think others have done the same.

I think whatever comps we can get are a nice bonus, but it seems unrealistic to me to think we should have access to the results of scientifically valid tests and published specs, esp when you can't get the same from major cable making corporations.

Great points all the way around Todd.  +T

[Busman Audio]

Since we are a "live" audio recording community I thought this was an ideal "real world" test that made perfect sense.

Mr. Church I am sorry you think that Neumann makes a bunch of 140s that sound as different as these sounded.

This is not a scientific test as was never advertised as that.  Do you have a anechoic  chamber to test your mics and pres in? didn't think so.
You really tend to come off a little rude to me most of the time.

 
I do this as a service for people and I deserve to be paid for my research, time, and parts just like any one else. If opinions of people are what spreads the news of my service to be deemed as worth the money is that not ok. 

Again I just wanted people to hear the difference of the stock Vs mod R4. These mics were maybe 2 inches apart from each other on the same stand in the same config so make of it what you will but it certainly doesn't need to be an argument over how exact of a comp this is.

[Church-Audio]

i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

I hardly ever get a chance to make and sell cables anymore and I've stopped doing mods, so hopefully people won't take this as some sort of way-biased comment, but:

I don't agree with you here.  People on the board trying to make mods available or sell good cables at a good cost do not have the resources to make perfectly scientifically valid comparisons.  And they almost certainly will not have the resources to publish any kind of meaningful specs.  I can't get that level of information from a huge company like Monster Cable, why should I expect it from someone here?

As Brian Ska says, try to make the tests as valid as possible, let people know how they were done, and let people make their own judgements.  Easier to make controlled living room tests, but people often like to hear tests done in the field -- meaning of PA recordings, so having those comps available makes sense.  I'd rather 2 sets of high end mics be used rather than splitter cables and the ensuing effects on impedence, etc, but that's just me.

Not perfect, but still better than what you get from Monster Cable.  Use the comps, seller reputation, word of mouth, feedback on ts.com and make a decision on whether to buy.  Plus borrow a set of cables or a modded recorder and try them out for yourself.  I know I've got a set of loaner cables somewhere floating around as part of the gear loaner library for people to try out, and I think others have done the same.

I think whatever comps we can get are a nice bonus, but it seems unrealistic to me to think we should have access to the results of scientifically valid tests and published specs, esp when you can't get the same from major cable making corporations.

Todd with all due respect there is nothing scientific about placing a single mic in front of a speaker and not moving it and then switch cables and recording the same playback I know we wont get the emf and emi from the scr's but we will get an idea of the cables overall performance.. This test does not take anything special to do. Half of you guys have a better stereo then I do. So it should not be hard to place a mic in front of a speaker and not move it so we can hear the difference between cables right? I think we are trying to shroud my method in science maybe because no one wants to hear this test for some reason? maybe we wont hear a difference? maybe we will. So lets find out! Lets hear this simple easy to do test! I cant wait for the results!! One last thing Todd please explain to me how you can have two different sets of mics that will sound the same when A- they are not the same B- they are not in the same position in the room? How can you use that test to determine sound quality of a cable? Please help me to understand this? I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say. I am not here trying to sell anything I am just saying if you want to sell high end cables great! sell them but I think doing a simple test like this would surly show the benefits of the high end cable vrs the regular cable right?

[Church-Audio]

Since we are a "live" audio recording community I thought this was an ideal "real world" test that made perfect sense.

Mr. Church I am sorry you think that Neumann makes a bunch of 140s that sound as different as these sounded.

This is not a scientific test as was never advertised as that.  Do you have a anechoic  chamber to test your mics and pres in? didn't think so.
You really tend to come off a little rude to me most of the time.

 
I do this as a service for people and I deserve to be paid for my research, time, and parts just like any one else. If opinions of people are what spreads the news of my service to be deemed as worth the money is that not ok. 

Again I just wanted people to hear the difference of the stock Vs mod R4. These mics were maybe 2 inches apart from each other on the same stand in the same config so make of it what you will but it certainly doesn't need to be an argument over how exact of a comp this is.

With all due respect no one makes microphones that all sound the same. I have never come across any in 20 years. But they sound similar. But when your doing a test and you have "similar" sounding microphones how do you remove that from the equation? You cant. Unless you have a method that tries to find all these little problems and eliminate them. I dont have a anaholic chamber the reason is I dont publish my frequency response graphs.. And why is that I wonder? because I dont have an accurate way of testing a microphone. Nobody does actually Not even Neumann as hard as that is to believe. And I have used many KM  140's or KM 82's Many many times and they do sound different why is that? because not all capsules age the same way ask anyone that makes microphones for a living they will say the same thing. This is not a personal attack I would love to really hear the differences between you modded preamp and none modded I bet there is a huge difference! But with this test I would not be able to know for sure. That was my point. I think its great that you took the time to do it, but I think you need to try and remove all the variables if you can. That's my opinion. I have software I use it tells me what the performance of my preamps are gives me a bunch of numbers and graphs. But in the end we have to use our ears if we are hearing the sound from two different locations of mic placement and two different sets of mics how will we know what is actually making the difference in sound that we are hearing?

[Brian Skalinder]

I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

Chris - it doesn't seem to me that anyone disagrees that your very controlled test will provide value.  But I am (and perhaps others are) suggesting it's not the be-all, end-all test that will for once and ever make up everyone's mind with respect to audible differences between cables.  I am (and I think others are) suggesting that - in addition to your very controlled comp - there's still value in comps that make a very limited number of compromises.

Feel free to disagree.  I think we're going in circles at this point.

[OFOTD]

I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

off the top of my head......

Maybe we're all just sick of hearing the dribble that comes out of your mouth most of the time before you delete those comments or threads. 

Maybe people just want you to build affordable stealth packages and leave the gear talk to people that work on and use gear like Busman.

Maybe people are sick of having to correct you on topics you have no clue about.

Maybe people are sick of you having a condescending attitude towards everyone save for your own ticket begging thread.

Maybe we trust what a taper has to say more than what you have to say.

[Church-Audio]

I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

off the top of my head......

Maybe we're all just sick of hearing the dribble that comes out of your mouth most of the time before you delete those comments or threads. 

Maybe people just want you to build affordable stealth packages and leave the gear talk to people that work on and use gear like Busman.

Maybe people are sick of having to correct you on topics you have no clue about.

Maybe people are sick of you having a condescending attitude towards everyone save for your own ticket begging thread.

Maybe we trust what a taper has to say more than what you have to say.

I am not a taper its true. I am a sound engineer. I work on all kinds of gear. I think you just dont like me so your going to try and make everything personal its really to bad that you cant just leave me alone you have to push me and push me every chance you get, keep going keep talking. I am not going to get sucked into your shit. I think your wrong about me. I am not going to stoop to calling you names. Thank you for your kind words.

[Brian Skalinder]

Chris, Dave - take it to PMs, please.  Let's not pollute yet another thread with your personal blathering back and forth.

[OFOTD]

Chris, Dave - take it to PMs, please.  Let's not pollute yet another thread with your personal blathering back and forth.

Agreed Brian.  I don't ever mean to pollute threads.  I tried to take it to PM but Chris prefers things in public apparently. 

I know I know something about a dead horse.  I get it. 

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