Topic: Fostex FR-2 users?

[Stuart]

Antybody get their hands on one of the new Fostex FR-2 boxes?  I'm in the market for a new SFX collection recorder and it looks pretty cool.  I'd love to get the scoop on them.  Thanks in advance!

[sickrick43]

If all you're doing is SFX collection, it looks like a neat unit.  

No way of telling what the pre-a/d onboard sounds like, and from the specs given it looks like it will do up to 96/24 from an outboard pre-a/d.  The s/n, thd  & response specs look OK, and it will do 48V Phantom on it's mic inputs.

It'll do 289 minutes @ 48/24 and 144 minutes @ 96/24 on a 5GB PCMCIA drive.  Wonder why they didn't put an onboard drive 20 gig'r in the thing?  2 Hours/24 Minutes on a 5GB Drive?  You'd have to carry about 4 drives ($1000 or more) for a festival.

B&H has these listed for $1,299 - certainly not as cheep as a JB3.  5GB drives are in the $250-300 range - don't really see anyone making larger drives and CF memory seems the direction most storage is going (versus designing and building PCMCIA hi-capacity drives).  The power supply is not currently in stock, and someone on another thread commented that they tried RatShack adapters and couldn't get one to fit.

If they made one of these with a 20 or 40 (or <gasp> 60/80) gig internal drive or option, it would definately be something I'd consider for concert recording.  5GB Toshiba's seem to be the largest PCMCIA drives out there.  Hitachi/IBM Travelstars have 20/40GB drives in the 1.8" form factor, but I don't see them in a PCMCIA mount. (I smell another DIY Taper Project brewing)

It's a little large for stealthing (9.4X8.27X3.9").  I'd also be interested in seeing whether this "standard BWF (Broadcast Wave File)" format is something that's going to be compatible with standard tools, like soundforge, cooledit and wavelab.

Without having laid hands on this, I'd say it looks like a cool toy.  If I wasn't saving my pennies for the new Canon 1D MarkII camera that's coming out in a week or 2, I might even lust after one of these (ok, I'm kinda drooling to play with one.  If the pre-a/d was (is) any good sounding, I'd even consider dumping the V3 and picking up one of these up, even though spec-wise - the V3 has 7-10 more dB of dynamic range.  

Only thing that would hold me back, would be the lack of available storage devices.  With an internal 20/40/60GB hard disk, this would "almost" be a no brainer, and surely compete well with the other hard disk recorders that are coming to market now.  Fostex discusses thier movement into non-linear technology (hard disc recorders) as one of thier reasons for dropping thier DAT deck.  Maybe we'll see a similar unit soon from them, with a hard disc.  I know Marantz is supposedly coming out with one also.

The more I look at the specs, the more I drool...

Rick

[MattD]

Thread hijack ... should the release of that camera drive down the price on the 10D and the 300D? I'm putting my $ into lenses, so if I know the body prices are dropping, I'll wait another month before buying.

[sickrick43]

Thread hijack is it?  heh heh...

The new Nikon is driving down the price of the 300/10D.  Canon Canada announced a price drop (but this is more in line with the depreciation of the Canadian $$).  B&H has 10D's down to $1,399, I'm seeing them from $1,080 (express photo - has to be a refurb at that price) to $1,499.  I don't think the current 6MP model line will take a hit from the MarkII, as much as they will from the Nikon.  But then again, plenty of Nikon owners are selling thier glass collections to get thier hands on a MKII.  I know it's going to make a KILLER difference in my low light concert shooting, as well as better AF, better flash algorythyms, etc.

OTOH, the 1Ds will probably do a large price drop, as a result of the MkII.

My 10D, BG-ED3 Battery Grip, 3 extra batteries, and all my other 10D specific extra's will be for sale in a week or 2.  About 5,000 or less shutter activations, never dropped, MINT CONDITION.  I'll be looking for about $1,200 for the whole thing.

[MattD]

Keep me in mind then, though I don't think I'll have $1200 to drop on a body. Would rather get a 300d body under 800 and move those $400 to L glass

[plucks]

Actually, it will do better than 24/96.
Its the first portable HD recorder to do 24/192!

it's pretty big though.  About the size of a DA-p1, but thicker.

oh yeah, it wont be out for a few more months.

phil

[jacallery]

It is already out.  I bit the bullet and bought one.
There are a few retailers on the net with some for sale.
The going price is $1299 and that does not include AC power
cord (~$60 extra).  No DC power plug is available yet from Fostex (thay told me that it would be in dealer stores in near future).
I havn't had a chance to test it in the field yet, but when I do(next week)
I'll post the results. I will probably do a comparison against the minime
some time soon to check out the A/D section.
probably schoeps>oadem248(split signal)->minime(16bit)>m1              
                                                                 '->FR2(16bit)

..will also do a V3/FR2 comparison at some point.

I don't expect the pre section of the FR2 to match the V3's or
for that matter the Minime, but I can do some All-In-One box
camparisons if they would be of interest.
The only problem, is there is not a whole crapload of good music here for a month or so.

If anyone has any questions on the basics of the unit, I'd be happy
to try and answer what I can.

callery

[plucks]

good to know they came out early!!

[creekfreak]

also, you can get those 5GB drives for under $200 if you know where to look....looks cool as hell, if it can do 24/192 I might have to look into it

[BobW]

Toshiba sells a 5GB PCMCIA HD based MP3 player that retails for less that $200.
You get a neat player that will use a Hard Drive or CF memory in a sleeve and the 5GB drive........

I want to hear the FR-2 in the worst way.
Would love to hear comps on the analog and A/D sections on it.

[Stuart]

Wow, thanks for the responses!  I do sound editing for tv and cheesy movies so this would probably be a good box for me.  My neighbor works at Location Sound and he said they had a few in stock for me to look at next week.  

The reason I want a really high sampling rate is that I do shitloads of pitchshifting in my daily editing and that Nyquist aliasing is pretty easy to incur at normal sampling rates when pitching down.  Some of the danetracks people are already doing this approach, and they're no slouches.  I won't get much sampling time at 24/192 but that's okay.  I just wish they'd announce some sort of bulk dump routine to a large USB drive in the field.  I'm probably stuck having to buy an old laptop just to unload files and grab more when on a shoot.  

Keep em' coming.  I like this board and would be very pleased to hear some first-hand experiences with it.

Thanks again,
S.  

[sickrick43]

Actually, it will do better than 24/96.
Its the first portable HD recorder to do 24/192!

it's pretty big though.  About the size of a DA-p1, but thicker.

oh yeah, it wont be out for a few more months.

phil

That's strange, B&H is showing them IN STOCK! (although without the power supply)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=314091&is=REG


From the spec sheet, it will only record up to 24/96 on a PCMCIA Hard Disk or CF.  Don't know why they even spec 24/192 if it won't record it. Perhaps a typo on the spec sheet?

http://www.fostexdvd.net/fxdvd_route/docs/pdf/fr2_broch.pdf

5GB = 24/192 stereo =72 minutes.  
5GB = 24/96 stereo = 144 minutes (2 hours 24 minutes)
5GB = 24/48 stereo = 289 minutes (4 hours 29 minutes)
5GB = 16/48 stereo = 434 minutes (7 hours 34 minutes)

Lexar has 8GB CF cards now, the 4GB's are $1,400, I can only imagine what the 8GB's are going for, but 8GB would give you 224 minutes @ 24/96.  That for me is a do-able proposition (for field music recording), though not @ $2000 for an 8GB CF Card.  If someone had a PCMCIA 10 or 20GB drive out at a reasonable price, this would be WAY more palatable.

I'm still researching what this BWF (broadcast wave format) is, and whether it's compatible with anything we already use <g>...

Rick
The wife is already screaming "NO FUKKIN WAY, I get a LIVING ROOM SET before you buy more recording gear."

[Flarnet]

BWF is just a normal .wav file with extra embedded info. Everything that can play a wav can play it. Check out http://www.sr.se/utveckling/tu/bwf/ for links to some BWF files as well as basic info.

And I would LOVE to hear about the FR2. Give us all the dirt on AD, limiters, headphone amp etc. With the recent Muvo trick they are actually pretty interesting.

[sickrick43]

BWF is just a normal .wav file with extra embedded info. Everything that can play a wav can play it. Check out http://www.sr.se/utveckling/tu/bwf/ for links to some BWF files as well as basic info.

And I would LOVE to hear about the FR2. Give us all the dirt on AD, limiters, headphone amp etc. With the recent Muvo trick they are actually pretty interesting.

Thanks for the link, this one links to the actual guide:

http://www.ebu.ch/tech_info/tech_info_bwf_ug/tech_info_bwf_ug.html

I'm starting to drool a little more than I'd like to at this point   .

Wonder if you could DIY mod a Toshiba 5 gig, and shoehorn a Travelstar 40 gig in it's place?  I still can't believe Fostex let this out, without a high capacity drive option and USB instead of Firewire.  WTF were they thinking?  It's almost hard to believe this is NEW technology.

Well, I'm DEFINATELY INTERESTED in hearing how the pre-A/D sounds.  If the wife didn't get the UPS deliveries, I probably would have impulse-ordered this from B&H already.

Rick
Wonder if I can return my $3000 LASIK for a refund and buy this thing?

[BobW]

Wow, thanks for the responses!  I do sound editing for tv and cheesy movies so this would probably be a good box for me.  My neighbor works at Location Sound and he said they had a few in stock for me to look at next week.  

Ever hear of IndustrialTV  ?
 

[Stuart]

Nope, whassat?  Like "Ministryvision"?  "KMFDMScope?"

Just kidding, I've never heard of it...

S.

[sickrick43]

I'm missing something here...

What recent "Muvo trick"?

Rick

[John R]

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?action=display;board=1;threadid=14915;start=0#msg185726

[BobW]

Nope, whassat?  Like "Ministryvision"?  "KMFDMScope?"

Just kidding, I've never heard of it...

S.

Not to thread hijack....but......it's a very sick cable access show in the NYC area.
Montages of softcore with military and commercial training films with freaky low-budget Sci-Fi and College films.

Hard to describe it, very over the top.
I've found most people either love it or hate it.
It takes no prisoners and stands no middle ground.


That said, I'm going to B&H this week. Want to touch and feel an FR-2.
If it seems to hold it's ground, I'll probably buy it.  I have the HD and can do a 4 hour show with it. This may finally be the DAT replacement that I've been looking for.
I hope the A/D and Pre can hold their own.

[BobW]

I'm missing something here...

What recent "Muvo trick"?

Rick

Someone said something about pulling a MicroDrive from an MP3 Player.
Someone else has warned about proprietary firmware.
There's a link on pencomputing audio yahoo group.

[flintstone]

SickRick wrote:
"From the spec sheet, it will only record up to 24/96 on a PCMCIA Hard Disk or CF.  Don't know why they even spec 24/192 if it won't record it."

I sent email to a contact at Fostex to ask about this.  I got a reply back from their technical staff within 4 hours (on a Sunday, no less).  The tech said

"This is a limitation of the PCMCIA drives, not the recorder. The current [Toshiba] drive is too slow for this data rate. The new drives just about to become available will have faster speeds and will allow 24/192 resolution."

This limitation does not apply to CF.  The Sandisk Ultra II card they recommend can handle a sustained high data rate.  

The Hitachi 4GB MicroDrive in Compactflash packaging (as found in the Creative Muvo2 for $195) can handle data faster than the 5GB Toshiba PCMCIA drive, so it may work for 24/192 recording.  Just speculation on my part.

Flintstone

[BobW]

SickRick wrote:
The Hitachi 4GB MicroDrive in Compactflash packaging (as found in the Creative Muvo2 for $195) can handle data faster than the 5GB Toshiba PCMCIA drive, so it may work for 24/192 recording.  Just speculation on my part.

The Microdrive is very marginally faster, so I doubt it.

Mmm, new faster PCMCIA drives. That means even cheaper old drives, too.
The dream is becoming reality.  

[sickrick43]

I dunno.  Being in the computer biz, I'm left with the impression that PCMCIA stuff is not going to be paid mush attention to in R&D, with solid state being given the nod as the next big think in removable storage.

The FR-2 is still a very viable system.  I'm eager to hear about the pre-A/D.  I could justify it to the wife, if I sell the V3.  It would certainly make the rig simpler.

But for storage, at least for what WE do here, it seems like another case of the cart before the horse.  Even though the media is re-usable, at current media sizes, you're still looking at 2:24 media (5GB@96/24).  Buy 2 and carry a laptop to do dumps with? 5GB  micro-drive and 4GB Compact Flash?  Wonder if it will switch between media on the fly?  Can you hotswap media while writing to the other one.

I can see doing 192/24 for sampling effects and whatnot for the broadcast/movie application.  Unless you're planning on doing DVD Audio, wouldn't a bitrate/density that high kinda be overkill when it's going to end up on a 44.1 CD anyway?  

I can even see recording multi-track at higher than 96/24, as you'll keep the definition in the mixdown process, before you dither down prior to mastering to CD.  But for the purposes of live open mike recording in a room, is ultrahigh rate/depth going to actually be a benefit, or a storage albatross?

Just thinking out loud...

Bob, I'm anxious to hear your impressions after playing with this (if they let you).  Bring 8 high capacity AA's with you, as it appears B&H doesn't have the "kit" that includes the wallwart in stock, nor do they have the wallwart as a seperate item.  Wish I had a pro audio shop down here that carried that item.

Rick

[Stuart]

Apparently one of the radio shack wall wart converters works with the FR-2.  I'll try to find out which one....

S.

[jacallery]

The tech support at Fostex e-mailed me and said that
one customer had found a plug that works at Rat Shack.
He said that it was the type D plug.  Looks like I'll be going
to the shack tomorrow to see.

>>Wonder if it will switch between media on the fly?  Can you hotswap >>media while writing to the other one.>>


I don't believe so.  The recorder has to be stopped recording to switch cards, even with two cards(CFC & PCMCIA) are loaded.   It takes about
5-6 seconds for the FR2 to load the card and begin recording.  


I'm testing mine for the first time tonight. Cant wait.

Callery

[sickrick43]

The tech support at Fostex e-mailed me and said that
one customer had found a plug that works at Rat Shack.
He said that it was the type D plug.  Looks like I'll be going
to the shack tomorrow to see.

>>Wonder if it will switch between media on the fly?  Can you hotswap >>media while writing to the other one.>>


I don't believe so.  The recorder has to be stopped recording to switch cards, even with two cards(CFC & PCMCIA) are loaded.   It takes about
5-6 seconds for the FR2 to load the card and begin recording.  


I'm testing mine for the first time tonight. Cant wait.

Callery

I though you went "plug-testing" at RatShack already?  

Real eager to hear how you do tonight.

Still put off about what potential maxfilesize is on the recorder, and the lack of REAL BIG MEDIA (real big would be 10GB at this point) availability for this unit.

With alot of manufacturers talking about non-linear systems as the "next big thing" in portable recording, it's tought to decide whether to leap NOW, or hang back awhile and see what next quarter brings.

Rick

[jacallery]

I meant go BACK to radio shack to see.
I didn't find one that fit it, I thought, but If someone did
I guess I'll make one more trip.  My wife was with me & I was "trying" to hurry:-)

I recorded tonight schoeps mk41(din)>kc5>cmc6>oadem248>FR2(line in).
The Band was Trailer Bride from N. Carolina.  Well my 8xAA niMH (2300mah) died after about 1:15 min.  Mind you this was the first time these batteries had a full charge, and I stupidly left the light on the whole time.  This light will drain the batteries some.  I also ran line in at pretty
much the whole gain (~-27db/30db is max) and the m248 a little past 1/2
way.  There is a level input gain on the front panel of the FR2 and I ran that at about 4 (it goes 1-10) but my batteries are dead so I have to wait till tomorrow
to transfer it.  

   I have sent an e-mail to Fostex to find out if the Line In uses a resistor circuit or straight gain circuit.  I ran the FR2 like it was a resistor circuit
by running it pretty hot going Line In.  The tech at fostex said he waould
consult with the engineers about the gain structure.  I'm sure running
the trim knob this high had something to do with the battery consumption.
Also, there is a Dealer on the web I found that has 12v plugs that terminate into CIG adapters, could be used for 12v sla cord.
http://www.equipmentemporium.com/fostex_fr-2_dig_rec.htm

More to come once I tranfer (incomplete) show.

callery

[jacallery]

Got an email about line in gain on the FR2, for those who plan
on using it as an A/D

"First, The mic in and line in go through the same
preamp. The line in simply applies -30dB pad.

The level dial provides 0 gain at scale 7 position.
If you set it max, it adds 10dB gain.

If you need to establish a unity gain whole way through
from line input, this is the setting;

Line In nominal level: +4dBu
Line/Mic SW: Line position
Trim Pot: hard left (+4 position)
Level dial: at scale 7

By doing so, the FR2 level meter indicates -20 ref level
and you can get -10dBV nominal level from unbalanced
line output."



still haven't transfered last nights ahow yet.

callery

[MattD]

Callery, thanks for the research. Can this unit do 24/96 digital in? Assuming unlimited media, how long can you record a continuous file?

-Matt

[Flarnet]

It would be great if you could try the Schoeps straight into the FR2 preamps on something extremely quiet running max gain. Just an empty livingroom in the middle of the night for instance. To get an idea about the built-in preamps for those of us who record quiet stuff.

[jacallery]

>Can this unit do 24/96 digital in? Assuming unlimited media, how long >can you record a continuous file?

Yes it can do 24/96 through the digital in.  Fostex has a undate for it
that you can download from there site (free of course) through
your USB to update it to V1.03.  This new update allows for one
continuous file to be 4GB.  So your answer is 4gb.

>It would be great if you could try the Schoeps straight into the FR2 >preamps on something extremely quiet running max gain.

I'll do it, no problem.  

callery

[BobW]

Great info !
Thanks. &  +T for the HD recording good karma

[MattD]

About that file to 4GB thing ... does it record 2 mono files? (So it really is the equivalent of an 8 GB stereo file.)

If so, I will keep an eye on this. +T for doing the dirty work!

[jacallery]

>does it record 2 mono files? (So it really is the equivalent of an 8 GB >stereo file.

I'm pretty sure it is a 4gb stereo file.  It will record about  2hours on a 4gb continuous file doing 24/96.  You could easily hit record standby between songs (like hitting pause) and immediatly start another file without losing more than a second.

callery

[sickrick43]

>does it record 2 mono files? (So it really is the equivalent of an 8 GB >stereo file.

I'm pretty sure it is a 4gb stereo file.  It will record about  2hours on a 4gb continuous file doing 24/96.  You could easily hit record standby between songs (like hitting pause) and immediatly start another file without losing more than a second.

callery

From thier documentation, 112 mins - which is close enough.  Though you'd sometimes be hard pressed to find a "between songs" during some bands 2nd sets (dead, etc.).

Still anxious to hear how the pre-a/d sounds.  Like to hear about the pre-a/d WITHOUT anything for a front end.

Transfer, transfer, transfer...

How'd ya make out with the adapta-plug & DC adapter?

Rick

[sickrick43]

They FINALLY posted the OWNERS MANUAL!!!

http://www.fostex.com/support/pdf/fostex/fr2/fr2_owners_manual.pdf

I been hitting this link all weekend, it actually has the file now, instead of being a dead link...

(now if I could only get Canon to post the 1D MarkII manual)

Rick

Edit: Additional info after reading manual:

Format on media is FAT32, not NTFS.

Max file size that deck will record is 2GB (note: callery reports that Fostex says latest update will allow 4GB filesize - what follows below is based on 4GB maxfilesize - manual has not been updated to reflect 4GB maxfilesize.)

Thus
228 mins @ 24/48 - 112 mins @ 24/96 - 56 mins @ 24/192
344 Mins @ 16/48

The unit has 5 seconds of "pre-record buffer" @ 24/96.  From what I gathered in my reading, ALL input runs thru the buffer before being written to the card.

122 Minutes is OK - the equivalant of 2 hour tape.  You can start a new file "on the fly" by hitting the record button, but nothing I read indicates that this is done in a "seamless/lossless" fashion, nor did the manual indicate anything with regards to whether the deck would AUTOMATICALLY start a NEW FILE when it hits 4GB (or just STOP), or how the deck reacts when it runs out of space on the media.  It would be HIGHLY ILLOGICAL (as Mr. Spock is fond of saying) for the unit (heh heh heh, did he say UNIT?) to just STOP.  And a 5 second buffer "should" be more than sufficient to start a new file without a gap.

Conclusion(s): If the deck is only capable of 112 minutes of recording @ 96/24, and does not do a "gapless/lossless" start of a new file - down to the FRAME, where at least you could paste it together without a click as a Wave64 or other larger audio format for editing, before dithering/resampling down to 44.1 for mastering - then the deck may be somewhat limited for the kind of recording we do here.  Also, if the deck doesn't start a new file automatically when it hits 4GB, it's going to be an inconvenience at best, and a DISASTER at worst.  The current lack of media much bigger then 4-5GB is going to be a hinderance also.

Not having a cover for the top controls, is also an accident waiting to happen, if you're running in a bag, or in a situation where any of these controls could be hit by accident.  There is no "button lock/hold button" on this deck - though the only way to stop recording is by hitting the rec-standby key.

In light of the capacities above, I don't think this deck was designed with US in mind, but rather broadcast/production (like anyone really makes anything for US?).  Is it usable?  Yeah, sure.  Are there limitations?  Um, a couple of glaring ones - the main one being 112 minutes @ 24/96, which actually isn't much for a non-linear recording system.

I'm still really interested in hearing about how "musical" the input section is, as opposed to the current crop of Pre's (V3/MiniMe/etc) as a means of reducing the "rig" to mics/cables/deck.

If I've still gotta haul all the rest of my crap, and want better than 2 hour interruption-free recording - I might as well keep using the JB3 (or D-10) for the time being.

AGAIN NOTE:  If maxfilesize had been increased, it comes down to availability/cost of LARGER than 4GB media (112 mins @ 24/96 w/4GB maxfilesize) and how good the input section is.  It's still more cost effective, if you already own a pre-a/d and plan on keeping it, to run a JB3.

I'm still really interested in this unit, 'cause it's a neat toy, and firmware upgradeable means they can fix alot of the shortcomings/bugs as time goes on.

[MattD]

This size limit is exactly what I'm afraid of with the SD722, which also claims to use BWF files. Why the hell NOT w64 or SDII extended?

I guess I won't be buying a FR-2 anytime in the forseeable future. One of my requirements for a new recording device would be 4+ hours of continuous or seamless (to the sample) 24/96.

[sickrick43]

This size limit is exactly what I'm afraid of with the SD722, which also claims to use BWF files. Why the hell NOT w64 or SDII extended?

I guess I won't be buying a FR-2 anytime in the forseeable future. One of my requirements for a new recording device would be 4+ hours of continuous or seamless (to the sample) 24/96.

The 4GB limitation is not file type, as much format type - FAT32 has a filesize limitation of 4GB...

What are you recording that requires 4+ hours seamless?


Rick

[MattD]

Even if it were formatted in NTFS or HFS+, a BWF could STILL only max out at 4 GB. Period. It is a limitation of file type. In this case, that limitation happens to coincide with the limitation of the FAT32 system in use. I still say poor design for this - these changes would not have been expensive to implement in the design stage.

Sorry about that 4 hours misstatement. I should have said 4 GB. I think I've only come close to 4 hours once in recording and that was a 3 1/2 hour show where I started the recording early b/c I didn't realize they were only soundchecking, but ended up leaving it on because they went almost straight from that to playing.

However, I'll record 4 GB every time I go to a show that's longer than two hours, when I'm doing 24/96. This happens at almost half the shows I go to, to the point where I'll run 24/48 if the band has a reputation for playing long sets or one long set.

[Stuart]

Surprisingly so, and no doubt to be a disappointment for those of you who are concert taping patriots, the max file size is 2gigs.  As of yesterday afternoon, a .pdf manual is on the fostex web site.
http://www.fostex.com/index.php?file=products/pfr/fr2
The cool thing is, though it probably won't address this problem, the FR-2 has a flash rom that can receive software updates with little hassle.  Maybe they're going to release something that'll make you able to record longer files...

I'm still gonna get one, but I can see how this would knock the box out of contender status for many of you.

S.

[sickrick43]

Surprisingly so, and no doubt to be a disappointment for those of you who are concert taping patriots, the max file size is 2gigs.  As of yesterday afternoon, a .pdf manual is on the fostex web site.
http://www.fostex.com/index.php?file=products/pfr/fr2
The cool thing is, though it probably won't address this problem, the FR-2 has a flash rom that can receive software updates with little hassle.  Maybe they're going to release something that'll make you able to record longer files...

I'm still gonna get one, but I can see how this would knock the box out of contender status for many of you.

S.

Stu...

uh, like, you don't READ PREVIOUS MESSAGES in the thread?

Hey Matt...

I've yet to see any removable media device that uses NTFS, I don't know if it's a licensing issue or what.  Being that this and the file it uses (BWF) appears to be geared towards the broadcast/production industry, I doubt they were thinking about "takes" bigger then 4gb.  The 4gb limitation of the wav/bwf format is a moot point, if the media format won't handle files larger anyway.

With non-linear being the "next big thing" in portable recording (according to Sony, Fostex and damn near everyone else) I'm interested in seeing how they're going to deal with this.  Wave64 is a Sonic Foundry (now Sony) format (licensing again) and being that format oriented groups need to maintain downward compatility with fat/fat32 OS's, I wouldn't even VENTURE how this issue is going to be resolved.


Rick

[wboswell]

Who anticipates recording 24/96 every show anyway?  While I certainly want to give it a go, I just don't think the storage hassle is worth it considering the type of music I typically capture.  Onstage or in a perfect setting, then yes, I would like to go 96k, but for the average show I record, I don't really think the gain v. hassle will be worth it.  One of the things I look forward to the most about dvd-a is having an entire show on one disc!

[BobW]

The noise floor at a show is so high that 24 bit is even overkill.
It is just easier to set levels with more headroom.
96kHz with all of that noise in the mix is an arguable benefit.

Now for classical and jazz, the game's in a new park, IMHO.

[Stuart]

Whoops, sorry Rick.  Saw that manual link on another forum and couldn't wait to share.  Didn't even see it till' you pointed it out.  My bad.  Anyways, my point was that the max file size is 2 gigs, not four, as your post infers.

S.

[MattD]

Now for classical and jazz, the game's in a new park, IMHO.

Which is inclusive of the taping that I've done. Jazz (not through a PA) at 16/44.1 and 24/96 is mind-blowingly different. One of the reasons that I've been pushing to get a stable 24/96 platform is because I have heard this difference.

Sickrick, you make a good point about the w64 format. I figured since Spark used it, it wasn't something that needed to be licensed. I also now see where you were going with your file system argument.

The only stable 24/96 laptop platform I've used is DP 3.11 in OS9. That, however, has a 2GB filesize limit in place, and is really annoying for concerts. If MOTU were able to alter that, I would gladly dump Panther, wipe my drive, load OS9 and record away.

I have had mixed success with some beta software in OS 10.3 and 10.3.2. For example, a solo cello concert I recently recorded (it's coming, Moke and Brian!) went flawlessly in 24/96. However, the 24/96 onstage Lotus I did had a few flaws.

I think it's 24/48 for me until these issues get worked out by drivers or software updates.

[BobW]

Now for classical and jazz, the game's in a new park, IMHO.

I think it's 24/48 for me until these issues get worked out by drivers or software updates.

What do you hear as the most dramatic improvement in going from 24/48 to 24/96 ?
I'm just starting to play with this and want to focus my attention.
So far, I think the cymbals have a slightly different "sizzle."
I don't have A-B sources for good comps.

[MattD]

This is also with no A-B (resampled 24/96 to 24/48 doesn't count), but I seem to place instruments in the stereo image better at 24/96. The leading edge of a snare hit has more of a *SNAP* to it. I second your observation on cymbals as well. The attack of brass instruments is more natural as well and not as muddy.

I don't know if I could A-B the difference between a good 48k source and a good 96k source though. I would be willing to bet that I can't tell between 96k and 192k, though.

[wboswell]

And here lies the crux of the issue: file size v. sonic improvement for non-studio environments.

[sickrick43]

Whoops, sorry Rick.  Saw that manual link on another forum and couldn't wait to share.  Didn't even see it till' you pointed it out.  My bad.  Anyways, my point was that the max file size is 2 gigs, not four, as your post infers.

S.

Callery, who actually HAS one of these, informed us (earlier in the thread <SLAP> uh sorry) that Fostex released a firmware update that up'd max filesize to 4GB (which I mentioned in my post).  I know I ramble sometimes, was just trying to pass along as much info as possible, after speed-reading the manual...

Rick

Matt,

I had read an article in EQ or Mix a couple of years back, about Pat Metheny switching to digital after being a SWORN analog only guy (in the studio).  It was the 24/96 that won him over.  I agree that the ambient noise of a rock concert wouldn't take advantage of the added detail on the low end of the spectrum, but the overall added headroom and top-end detail might make it worth it.  But still keeping in mind that quoted specs are 100db (and the V3 for example is 107db).  I wonder if that's just the specs for the INPUT SECTION, and the deck will still write 107dB from a digi in?

This still has a long way to go.  I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, that Lexar has an 8GB CF card out.  Can't find pricing on it, but the 4GB is $1,400 retail.  This looks like a real viable system, with larger micro or 1.8" PCMCIA drives (Hitachi/Travelstar makes 20 & 40GB http://www.hgst.com/hdd/support/c4k40/c4k40_ov.htm - but no one is mounting them in a CardBus adapter yet - another DIY project).  Until the storage media gets larger and more cost effective, this is still out of reach for what we intend for it.  Tho the deck itself is pretty low-cost (considering I paid just over $2k for my D-10 Pro in '90)...

[jacallery]

Hey, I'm testing the 4gb file size at 24/96 now, just off my computer spreakers.   I will let it run through the 4 gb (actually got 2hr 4min rec
time at 24/96 on 4gb) and see how it starts (if) a new file.  I am also
testing the Rec Standby "quickhit" and gonna see if the pre rec. buffer
will take care of the gap. This will let me know if I can start a file if needed without losing much if any recording.  

I just soldered my adaptaplug to my 4pin xlr and I have power
from my 12v.  In theory I should get around 15hr of power
from my 12v 7.2hr sla (12x7.2/5.7=15.16hr).  But it will vary.

 I transfered my show from the other night.
It took me 15 min to transfer a 1hr 10min set, and I was running some
other programs on the PC so it may have done it faster.
 I liked the results.. I will have to try it by starting at unity gain
going line in(per Fostex tech) and adjust from there.  I
am going to try to record a band Fri night and will use the unit
as a all-n-box.   I will also try the quiet recording this weekend
to test the Preamp's gain noise.


I'm going to bed .........goodnight.
callery

[Stuart]

Hey Rick,


"Callery, who actually HAS one of these, informed us (earlier in the thread <SLAP> uh sorry) that Fostex released a firmware update that up'd max filesize to 4GB (which I mentioned in my post)."
Geez, I didn't think that missing something on another page of a forum thread necessarily should precipitate the audio-pimp beat-down reference.  I'm actually only curious about the deck, and not in a little forum lurker ass-sniffing, okay?  I'm not trying to piss on your fire hydrant by posting here, so please, be kind and indulge my complete ignorance and lack of observational prowess with a tiny bit of restraint.  I'm new here and don't have any friends, yet.

Thanks,
Stuart
 

[BobW]

Stuart-
+T   - the beatings get softer over time ( )

I've been told to read before posting once or twice myself. I tend to speed read and miss a point or two because of the varied writing styles. There's a lot of backgrounds in this community and it shows in the syntax.
It will get smoother.
It's also not as easy to find the cynical stuff in text. I toss a smilie in when I'm attempting humor or cynicism, usually it come across.

[sickrick43]

Hey Rick,


"Callery, who actually HAS one of these, informed us (earlier in the thread <SLAP> uh sorry) that Fostex released a firmware update that up'd max filesize to 4GB (which I mentioned in my post)."
Geez, I didn't think that missing something on another page of a forum thread necessarily should precipitate the audio-pimp beat-down reference.  I'm actually only curious about the deck, and not in a little forum lurker ass-sniffing, okay?  I'm not trying to piss on your fire hydrant by posting here, so please, be kind and indulge my complete ignorance and lack of observational prowess with a tiny bit of restraint.  I'm new here and don't have any friends, yet.

Thanks,
Stuart
 

Not at all dude.  It was on the same post (in this thread).  I'll be your friend, and everyone appreciates enthusiasm (hell, +T for enthusiasm).  Just READ.  You replied 2 posts back, that you missed my post about the manual (which kinda inferred to me that you READ IT), and then INSIST that:

Didn't even see it till' you pointed it out.  My bad.  Anyways, my point was that the max file size is 2 gigs, not four, as your post infers.

Which tells me, even if you >READ IT<, you didn't READ IT.

My posts, while sometimes rambling (especially the technical ones), are usually carefully checked for accuracy before I press POST.  It's just funny that you responded to a heads up about this info already being on this thread, and then try and CYA by correcting me (which you would not have found necessary, had you READ the post).  Hence the SLAP.

We on the same page now?  Good.  

I'm very interested in this deck, and glad that Callery has volunteered to be out guinea-pig on this piece (instead of me for a change).  I have a whole garage full of shit I bought, that just didn't quite work out (but it's FUN to watch the wooks paw thru it when I put a dumpster-load out for bulk pickup, on the rare occasions when I get tired of tripping over it).

Still pissed?  Join the club - plenty of people here pissed at me   .  I've found it pays to be a little thick-skinned here.  If I thrived on thier approval (like some others do), it might actually hurt my feelings.  Don't read my posts.  But you just might miss out on that important piece of info you've been looking for, if you do (like 4GB maxfilesize in the last Fostex firmware update).

'Nuff Said...

Rick

I see Bob is your friend now too.  See, you have TWO friends here now...  Bob, I said "uh sorry", after I slapped him.  I guess I'll have to start using kewl emoticons more often...  

[scb]

>Who anticipates recording 24/96 every show anyway?  While I certainly want to give it a go, I just don't think the storage hassle is worth it considering the type of music I typically capture.  Onstage or in a perfect setting, then yes, I would like to go 96k, but for the average show I record, I don't really think the gain v. hassle will be worth it<<

Like matt, 24/96 is what won me over.  i really couldn't tell a difference (on my old playback system) between 24/48 and 16/44.1, but at 24/96 i start to notice that one just sounds more "real".  so now i try to do 24/96 for every open taping show i go to.  got last night's allmans in 24/96.  it's between 5.5 and 6 gigs i think uncompressed.  set 1 will be 1 dvd-a, set 2 another

[Stuart]

Don't worry about it, Rick.  Apology accepted.

Forum drama aside,
I've bitten the bullet and told my neighbor who works at Location Sound to hold one of these for me.  He said they should be in on Monday.  I just hope the pre's sound pretty good, and that the a-d isn't too bad.  It's probably fine for what I need it to do, at least if the Pd-2 and 4 are any indication.  

I got an animation and a couple of video game gigs coming up that need "all new design" elements.  No more commercial library stuff, these guys want the real deal.  Almost everything's been done to death these days, and I'm hoping to create some really new sounds with this.  I'm hoping that this trick of super-high sample rate elements pitched way down will produce the otherworldly harmonics and overtones that I need for these designs/special weapons/dark ambiances.  I need a lot of magic and sword-metal type stuff, wood breaks,  big doors, reverberant spaces, rock hits of all sorts, along with big gun mechanics and the like.  (I go out to the Arizona desert and destroy shit to make weird noises, which has proven to be an endeavor both cathartic AND lots of fun)
    Though somehow I doubt hardcore audiophile music guys are interested in this sort of thing, then again maybe some of you are.  I'd like to get to know you if this is of any interest.  

Any experiences making trippy sounds by drastically slowing down 192k or 96k files?  Does it maintain the nice liquidity of 1/4" tape and sampling boxes like the Synclavier?

Also, any cool suggestions as to places near LA/soCal/Arizona area to record that kind of stuff (parks or public areas with abanonded buildings, bunkers, silos, crazy sounding props, machines, etc.)?  I'm really interested in anything anybody has to add.

S.  

[BobW]

I see Bob is your friend now too.  See, you have TWO friends here now...  Bob, I said "uh sorry", after I slapped him.  I guess I'll have to start using kewl emoticons more often...  

When I see a button, I just got to push it  

[Stuart]

Hey Bob, I think our steins just clinked! Cheers!

[sickrick43]

Hey Bob, I think our steins just clinked! Cheers!

Hey, that was MY STEINS.

That deck oughta be real useful for SFX recording in 192/16.  Lotta bits there to manipulate and create weirdness with.  Ever consider making samples out of your captures and manipulating them with a midi/synth?

Rick

[Stuart]

Actually, that's exactly what I do.  I'm using Reason right now with Pro Tools TDM, and Reason's software samplers can take up to 24/96 (even when Rewired into a 16/48 PT session).  After recording stuff, I cut it up into little snippits and I map those samples to keys on a midi keyboard and play them against picture in Pro Tools or Logic Audio.  The plan is to SRC the captures (I'm gonna record everything at 192K to future-proof) down to 96k and pop em' into Reason.  I've built lots of kits like this already (gun kits, skateboard kits, magic kits, and fight kits with punches and blocks and body falls & such).  Reason doesn't traditionally have the best sounding samplers (they're flexible as hell though), but I don't want to have to buy Akai hardware at this point in the game.  It's really fun but kinda tedius unless you're really into it.

    I've done a few features and a couple of tv shows like this, and it's a pretty cool way to deal with sound effects to picture, especially  transient sounds like swords and any other kind of impacts.
 
    I'm hoping the high sample rates are going to provide some really novel textures because the Nyquist frequency barrier will take much longer to kick in as you pitch the sounds downward (and the drastic 24dB/octave filters won't be necessary either).  Those high harmonics that would be inaudible with DAT or 1/4" tape can become audible now, and even generic sounds will maintain much more character instead of turning into digital grunge.  Lord know what's going on up there at 50kHz, you know? Hopefully it'll be really cool!

S.

[wboswell]

>Who anticipates recording 24/96 every show anyway?  While I certainly want to give it a go, I just don't think the storage hassle is worth it considering the type of music I typically capture.  Onstage or in a perfect setting, then yes, I would like to go 96k, but for the average show I record, I don't really think the gain v. hassle will be worth it<<

Like matt, 24/96 is what won me over.  i really couldn't tell a difference (on my old playback system) between 24/48 and 16/44.1, but at 24/96 i start to notice that one just sounds more "real".  so now i try to do 24/96 for every open taping show i go to.  got last night's allmans in 24/96.  it's between 5.5 and 6 gigs i think uncompressed.  set 1 will be 1 dvd-a, set 2 another

thanks Scott. That was the kind of answer I was looking for...  I just purchased a universal disc player and will finally have a chance to try out dvd-a recordings

[nic]

"The only stable 24/96 laptop platform I've used is DP 3.11 in OS9. That, however, has a 2GB filesize limit in place"

hmmm, looking for my bit/resolution to hd space convertor.....
how much hd space would 3 hours at 16/48 take?
we consistently run 3+hours(straight) at 16/48 over a MOTU828-> DP3.11

do SDII files have a file-size limitation similar to wav/fat32?

[MattD]

Yup, SDII is just like WAV and AIFF. There is an SDII extended format that Spark uses, among others that goes up to 6GB/file, I believe.

The math isn't too hard to do and you only have to do it once.

16/48  in MB/min =


48000 samples           16 bits         1 byte      1 KB        1 MB         60 seconds
-------------------  * ------------ *  --------- * --------- * ---------- * --------------- * number of channels
1 second               1 sample          8 bits      1024 b    1024 KB    1 minute

[BobW]

Oogled the FR-2 at B&H today.
It had two flavors:
1) ~$1300 FR-2 Plain Vanilla
2) ~$1500 FR-2W included Toshiba 5GB PCMCIA HD and the wallwart supply.

Wallwart was in stock at ~$50, no case available yet.

FYI, they also had a Superscope PMD-670, D-8, D-100, PCM-M1, and a DAP-1 in the showcase.  

The FR-2 was looking very tempting. Had a lappy and 20 lbs. of presentation materials with me, which tipped the scale against walking home with it today.  I really want to hear the front-end of this thing with some mics which I'm familiar in a setting that I can relate to.

Somewhere I think I saw specs of s/n 87db on the mic input. I need to reread that manual.  

I noticed the Keyboard USB and the 'puter USB connections.
Is that for a Midi Keyboard or a USB computer keyboard ?
I definitely need to reread the manual, because you've got me wondering if you can trigger this thing via a Midi keyboard directly. It might be very cool to sample and trigger, say a phish riff or a piece of a candidate's speech.......
Back to the Fostex website.

[Stuart]

Hey Bob,

From what I understand, one of the USB ports is for connecting directly to a pc or mac for direct (the unit shows up as a remote fat32 volume), and the other port for connecting a USB keyboard for naming files and performing functions in the field.  I'm certain there's no midi involved with the FR-2 directly.  

Midi is really a very simple control protocol that digitally says: what note?, how hard or soft?, how long?, along with a few status functions.  It's not audio and really probably wouldn't have any place in a professional field recorder.

The midi would only come in if you transferred the files to a laptop or desktop, edited them, then put them into a virtual (or hardware) sampler or sampler program.  Then, you'd use midi (and a physical controller) to trigger the notes (and midi controller data) and perhaps record this midi data into a sequencer or (or actually record the physical outputs as audio tracks somewhere).

Hope this is at least a tiny bit useful.  If you want to get into sampling and midi, I can help get you started.

S.

[Stuart]

Well, I got mine today.  Gotta say, not too impressed.

The build quality screams crappy construction.  The record button rattles and feels cheap, as do most of the switches and buttons.  It just feels like it can't wait to fall apart.   It's a real lightweight, both literally and figuratively.  I put it back in the box without even listening to it, I was so pissed.  

Don't take my word for it though, I encourage people who are interested to look at one closely before you buy (a mistake I made because of an upcoming shoot next  week that I envisioned using this unit).

The pres and converters may sound awesome, but I'm simply unwilling to pay that much money for something that's not at least decently constructed (in my opinion).  For those of you that may think I'm a stickler, I really think my DAP-1 is well-constructed in comparison.  I'm really disappointed.
S.

[sickrick43]

Well, I got mine today.  Gotta say, not too impressed.

The build quality screams crappy construction.  The record button rattles and feels cheap, as do most of the switches and buttons.  It just feels like it can't wait to fall apart.   It's a real lightweight, both literally and figuratively.  I put it back in the box without even listening to it, I was so pissed.  

Damn, I had high hopes for this one.  Keep in mind on the buttons, that they are likely mounted to a faceplate, and actuate microswitches mounted on a circuit board underneath - and are not mounted on the switch themselves.  Being that there's no tape transport or hard disk in this, I would expect that it wouldn't be too heavy, even with the 8 AA's in it.

Don't take my word for it though, I encourage people who are interested to look at one closely before you buy (a mistake I made because of an upcoming shoot next  week that I envisioned using this unit).

Oade Bros. are supposed to be getting one of these to check out.  I'll pass your impressions on to Doug & Jim.  I spoke with Jim this morning, and he commented that Tascam was getting ready to release one, with Sony supposedly not far behind.

I'm in the process of contacting a company I've dealt with on some custom PCMCIA cards I had built for a customer, to see about mounting a 20 or 40GB Travelstar drive on one.  Only problem is, that it would likely need 2 card slots to clear the entire card, and there's only one slot in this unit.  I doubt anyone would really want external storage.  Many had envisioned this unit to be an all-in-one solution for Pre/Phantom + HiBit A/D + Non-linear recording.

The pres and converters may sound awesome, but I'm simply unwilling to pay that much money for something that's not at least decently constructed (in my opinion).  For those of you that may think I'm a stickler, I really think my DAP-1 is well-constructed in comparison.  I'm really disappointed.
S.

Still like to hear your thoughts on the pre-a/d if you get around to checking it out.  I assume from your comments that this is going right back to place-of-purchase.

Again, keep in mind that this is really just a bunch of circuit boards, and if it's in a plastic vs metal case, it's probably going to feel real light and cheesy...

Keep us posted...

Rick

[Tim]

I spoke with Jim this morning, and he commented that Tascam was getting ready to release one, with Sony supposedly not far behind.

YEAH! Thanks for the info Rick...

[BobW]

Would be the steathiest product release yet.
Tascam Site and NAMM  brochures have nothing of it

[sickrick43]

Would be the steathiest product release yet.
Tascam Site and NAMM  brochures have nothing of it

Only relating what was told to me.  He did mention that it was "under wraps".  I don't know that he's in any better a position than anyone else to have inside info.

There's alot of portable non-linear multi-track stuff out there from Roland and other manufacturers.  The 2 track stuff that is OUR bread and butter, has long been an ignored segment of the market.  I fear with the discontinuation of DAT products from everyone's lines, we may be left out in the cold in the next generation of products.

I hate to think Fostex is going to end up the "only game in town", and I don't think that's going to end up being the case.  But for right now, in the genre of 2 track portable non-linear (especially HiBit gear) they ARE the only game in town.  I wouldn't mind seeing someone come up with a Nomad-like device that was just a portable high resolution hard disk recorder WITHOUT a front end, as most of us already own a Pre-A/D that we like.  Creative doesn't seem to have anything new that records, the gmini and others don't even appear to be contenders for 16/48 even.

Your thoughts?

Rick

[BobW]

They don't like us ?  

I think the marketing folks have been eyeballing the economy and are waiting for the best time to launch product. I wouldn't doubt that Tascam releases a product fast.  Why not ?

Very wierd thought....I have been wondering if Sound Devices has been delaying for legal or patent reasons.  Now I wonder if they are being bought out by Tascam.
Or are selling the SD-722/SD-744 to them.

[sickrick43]

They don't like us ?  

Don't think it's really a matter of "like".  More a matter of "if EVERY TAPER wanted a field-use, battery operated portable 2 track recorder, HOW MANY COULD WE SELL "(vs. R&D, tooling and deployment costs).

Plenty of multitrack and even 2 track 120VAC-rackmount style stuff out there, or announced.  With the cost of multitrack non-linear decks plummetting, most artists and FOH would prefer the xtra tracks.   I'd sure rather have 4 or 8 subgroup outs to re-balance for listening room vs sound reinforcement - or main outs, onstage mics & room mics @ FOH.

WE just aren't enough market to really design for.  Even the motion picture production stuff is going multitrack for surround.

I think the marketing folks have been eyeballing the economy and are waiting for the best time to launch product. I wouldn't doubt that Tascam releases a product fast.  Why not ?

We'd buy the stuff even if gasoline was $3.00 a gallon.  We're gear sluts, and this is only our HOBBY...  The new camera I have coming in a coupla weeks is supposed to be about $4.5K.  Biz is slow (MY economy is down <g>), but rather than wait till I have the disposable cash and risk my #3 spot on the waiting list (and wait until July to actually get one) I'll get it NOW.  I don't NEED the camera, I WANT IT.  Same with an all-in-one non-linear deck - don't NEED it, but I sure WANT it.

Very wierd thought....I have been wondering if Sound Devices has been delaying for legal or patent reasons.  Now I wonder if they are being bought out by Tascam.
Or are selling the SD-722/SD-744 to them.

Haven't kept track of the Sound Devices saga, so I can't comment...

Rick

[BobW]

Still think that "they" don't like us.
"We" are the ones who created all that controversy over Internet music sharing, aren't we ?  (Well at least in their eyes)

SD 722 and SD 744 are 9 months of bun in the oven.
These will be out for late summer tour or sooner.
I'm just miffed that they're are nearly a year behind schedule.

Like I said before, I sincerely hope that they sound good for all of the wait.

[Lee]

SD 722 and SD 744 are 9 months of bun in the oven.

Longer than that... I started saving money Christmas of '02 under the impression they'd be out by March/April '03

[BobW]

Has anyone taped a show with the FR-2 using the internal mic Preamp ?

Would love to hear it.
Have servers for U/L or will happily snail-mail trade or B&P.

Thanks.

[jacallery]

Yea, I did Autumn Defense (Wilco's John Stirritt) and ran
schoeps mk41>kc5>cmc6xt>FR2(24/48>16/44.1 in wavelab)
I Just need a server to upload it to.  I really haven't had much to
record lately.  I am recording The Drive By Truckers & Galactic
this weekend outside and can put those up if someone wants to
hear them.
 I will tell ya this I recorded a bluegrass band at 24/96 the other
night and could not get it to transfer by USB to my computer.
I thought I was using USB 2.0 but I have 6 usb ports and don't know
how to tell which is 2.0 and which is regular.  Wavelab recognized the
file as 16bit 0Khz, strange.  I could listen to the recording fine through
my Home system (24/192 sp/dif input compatable) but could
not get it onto the computer.  Any thoughts?

callery

[Marc Nutter]

SNIP
Wavelab recognized the file as 16bit 0Khz, strange.  I could listen to the recording fine through
my Home system (24/192 sp/dif input compatable) but could
not get it onto the computer.  Any thoughts?

callery

Hi John,

I tried getting a good answer from Fostex and this and never felt comfortable. Doesn't the FR-2 record in .bwf format?  I haven't seen any provisions for this inside Wavelab.  Fostex indicated the any .wav editor should just open it without trouble. What file extension shows up when you dump the file to your computer?

If you aren't familiar with Masaki at Fostex, drop me an email and I'll forward his email address to you.  I think we should push this issue further with them. I'd be glad to participate.

Marc

[jacallery]

Marc,

The file shows up as a .wav file.  I may have been using my USB
1.0 not 2.0 hub.  BUT, this shouldn't matter since it is a file that
is being transferred and not a direct capture.  I'll record
something tonight at 24/96 and try to transfer it.

I have emailed Masaki a few times and got relitively good responses,
He even emailed the engineers in Japan for me on an internal gain question.

callery

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

since it is a file that
is being transferred and not a direct capture.  I'll record
something tonight at 24/96 and try to transfer it.

Does the FR-2 allow you to run a live stream from the deck to your workstation via USB as it is sampled?  

[Marc Nutter]

Marc,

The file shows up as a .wav file.  I may have been using my USB
1.0 not 2.0 hub.  BUT, this shouldn't matter since it is a file that
is being transferred and not a direct capture.  I'll record
something tonight at 24/96 and try to transfer it.

I have emailed Masaki a few times and got relitively good responses,
He even emailed the engineers in Japan for me on an internal gain question.

callery

Hi Callery (and All),

I totally agree.  We used Jason Brantley's 2.0 based hard drive on my computer with a 1.0 port and there weren't any problems goind either direction with 24/96 files.  It took a long time, but that would be expected.

How did your tests go?

[Marc Nutter]

Hi Callery and All,

I spoke with Masaki today about this and he only have the following suggestions:

The FR-2 can record many sampling rates, bit length, and track structures (ie. mono, stereo, ).  This is critical!!!
Be sure these match between the FR-2 and the audio software.

Most of this sounds pretty basic but is there any chance you are recording as a mono file and trying to open in stereo of something like that?

He also indicated the their experience suggest that Wavelab is "very forgiving."

I hope this helps.

Marc

[BobW]

Hey -

I had a good listen to the Galactic show.
My jury's out on the M248, but it was definitely "all there."
Couldn't tell definitively which was the A/D and which was the Pre, but I think that I can guess.

The M248 is a bit full and warm, isn't it ?

Loved hearing the new stuff from Galactic. I'm sure that I'll listen to this show at least two more times this week.

Thanks !

[jacallery]

Bob, what did you mean by "all there"?  What did you think of the Low end on the tape? I like it compared to the Minime low end.

I have never thought of the m248 as full or warm, that would be more the oade m148. The m248 has always been a bit more on the bright side.  But the tape is definitly warm sounding.   I think alot of the warmth is from the schoeps, I have always thought that they were a bit warm sounding.  So I guess that leaves the a/d.......it must be a bit onthe warm fuzzy side.  Of the few shows I have used the FR2 for I have thought the a/d in it was a warm ,kinda smooth sound , and this show helped me be convinced of this.   I did used the big ass Shure windscreens and this probably helped dampen the highs a bit.  I'm going to do a minime/FR2 a/d comp next
week, and report back.
If anyone cares, I had the gain on the m248 a little past half way(not sure how much in dB that would be) and on the FR2 ran LineIn, and had the top panel trim at 3/4 open(~ -26dB) and the front panel level knob @ 7
(or 0dB gain) .

callery

[BobW]

[UPDATE]  I've been giving this disk a workout.
The topend is down by about 3db, but that may be an advantage. Plenty of cymbals. The bottom is warm. tight, and doesn't rumble.
Mids, vocals, and sax sound so vibrant and clear, yet not strident. (happy tears forming in the corners of my eyes)
Overall one heck of a recording ! I want to hear more M248 / Schoeps recordings. Very easy to listen to.  Can't see why the M248 isn't Doug's "favorite child" Gain adjustment is nice.
Thanks again  
[/UPDATE]

Still fiddling with levels and trying it on different systems to see what I hear.
It's not easy for me as the mics aren't as familiar to me as MBHO603as or BK4022s. I also don't know the m248 at all.

What I mean by "all there" is the recording is very good, very listenable, and no thing missing that can't be compensated for.
I'm still trying to suss out the different pieces from the FR-2, but overall I do like it. At different levels, I'm hearing very slightly different tonal balance.
Don't know if it's my ears, the system, or the m248. Won't say until the weather dries up and my ears stabilize.

I may get an FR-2and an MP-2 to fiddle with, but that tarnishes the all in one chalice.  Been thinking about the raw SD-722 alot.

Definitely want to hear the MiniME comp !
Thanks for helping us get a bead on this new toy.
+T for the efforts.

[flintstone]

jacallery wrote: I'm going to do a minime/FR2 a/d comp next week, and report back.

Anyone care to comment about their recent experiences with the FR-2?  

The SD 722 list price is now almost double the cost of the FR-2.  Ouch!
--Flintstone

[BobW]

If you stop by the Oade Board, Doug has opened up the FR-2 and found flaw with the pre-amp's signal handling, dynamic range, and the phantom power supply (says it's noisey and stays on with line-in).

Sound's like he's developing future business.  

Now add in a mod from Doug and there may be an all-in-one box to compete with the SD722.  

My greatest concern about the SD722 is that it is an all-in-one solution.
If something fries, the entire unit is a possible loss.
Ditto(especially) for a modded FR-2
Modularity offers the possiblility of lower cost to maintain/repair.

So the question of the moment is, "is line-in a viable solution ?"
The Galactic show sounds great, I'd love to hear a V2>>FR-2 lineage with a pair of DPA4022s or TLs or MBHO603As.

Marc N. - Are you up to the challenge ? Or would you know someone who is ?
 

[BobW]

Doug Oade has a working, MOD Fostex FR-2 and says that he'll be posting samples shortly.

[sickrick43]

Doug Oade has a working, MOD Fostex FR-2 and says that he'll be posting samples shortly.

Yeah, but can he BEAT B&H's price for it...  <BFG>...

Long time no see kiddies!

Been on the photo boards playing with my new Canon 1D MarkII.

Figgered I'd stop in and wave.  I had a feeling when I talked to Jim (and posted on this thread) that Doug had taken an interest in opening one of these suckers up.  I dropped him a note after Stu's apparant disappointment.  The limiting factor here is still going to be the media.  If you still have to run a V2 or V3 in front of it, that almost defeats the purpose of an "all-in-one" style deck.  If Doug can mod the pre to the point where it's "worthy" for a few buckeroo's on top of Deck price - THAT might be something to consider.

Cheers,

Rick

[BobW]

Ooooh,  a  1D MkII. so nice.
Good luck with it !  Been messing with my bud's D-100 and drooling a lot lately.  The film scanner is the only thing keeping me from taking a deeper plunge than my little Dimage point and shoot digi.

+T for the new toys !  Hey, when do you go "T-Positive ?"

But you still can't hijack my FR-2 thread !  

[BobW]

I took the plunge and ordered a T-Mod FR-2 from Doug Oade.
As soon as I have it, I'll be testing it and posting shows.

[creekfreak]

look forward to hearing your report. If doug can mod these to sound sweet and they work well, I might be more interested in that than the SD unit.

[BobW]

look forward to hearing your report. If doug can mod these to sound sweet and they work well, I might be more interested in that than the SD unit.

I will be circulating shows and allowing folks with better mics than mine to run it , if they're interested.
Looking for another 5GB pcmcia card right now.

[creekfreak]

sweet, look forward to hearing the results.

[BobW]

sweet, look forward to hearing the results.

No problem.

Did you seed John Brown's Body on RG ?
Thanks !
I've been meaning to check this band out......

[F.O.Bean]

kris is the rochester groove man

[mahoobley]

Hi, I posted a topic on this forum a little while asking for advice on getting some location recording gear - I've lost that thread so thanks for the comments anyone who remembers posting there!

Anyway, back on topic the reason i'm posting here is because I went with an FR-2 in the end and am pretty happy with the unit. Only bummer being battery life (up to 2 hours recording with 8 2300A rechargeables) - I don't understand why Fostex didn't just build it with some kind of internal rechargeable battery, and i'm guessing by the cost of the AC adaptor that when they finally do release a rechargeable pack that it won't exactly be competetively priced. Other gripe is that the USB connection is USB1 not USB2 so data transfers are somewhat slow, but then they are still faster then sending the audio direct so I can't complain too much about that.

Apart from those niggles the thing sounds great. I'm using it with a relatively humble Sennheiser K6+ME66 mic but even with the preamps cranked i'm getting virtually no noise. With my intention of using it to build up an SFX library thats a bloody good thing. I read some posts earlier from people saying it can't record 192 onto PCMCIA HD well unless that has already been corrected then I can correct that now - it works.

If anyone interested in the unit would like me to try anything on it give me a shout.

[creekfreak]

sweet, look forward to hearing the results.

No problem.

Did you seed John Brown's Body on RG ?
Thanks !
I've been meaning to check this band out......

Yes, I did seed it there, check it out, great band

[BobW]

Hi, I posted a topic on this forum a little while asking for advice on getting some location recording gear - I've lost that thread so thanks for the comments anyone who remembers posting there!

Anyway, back on topic the reason i'm posting here is because I went with an FR-2 in the end and am pretty happy with the unit. Only bummer being battery life (up to 2 hours recording with 8 2300A rechargeables) - I don't understand why Fostex didn't just build it with some kind of internal rechargeable battery, and i'm guessing by the cost of the AC adaptor that when they finally do release a rechargeable pack that it won't exactly be competetively priced. Other gripe is that the USB connection is USB1 not USB2 so data transfers are somewhat slow, but then they are still faster then sending the audio direct so I can't complain too much about that.

Apart from those niggles the thing sounds great. I'm using it with a relatively humble Sennheiser K6+ME66 mic but even with the preamps cranked i'm getting virtually no noise. With my intention of using it to build up an SFX library thats a bloody good thing. I read some posts earlier from people saying it can't record 192 onto PCMCIA HD well unless that has already been corrected then I can correct that now - it works.

If anyone interested in the unit would like me to try anything on it give me a shout.

Have you tried to record a band with a PA at a loud concert ?
Did you use the built-in microphone preamps ?

Battery ideas:
Large:
http://batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=432
Jumbo:
http://batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=988
Of course, there's always lead....

For data transfers, you can always use one of these:
http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/configurator/PartsInfo.asp?root=us&ktcpartno=FCR-HS2/ATA&referid=28
It's USB 2.0 and costs $30 direct from Kingston
I use my laptop's  PCMCIA slot, shared, and ethernet, it's about as fast.

[BobW]

No problem.
Did you seed John Brown's Body on RG ? ..........
Yes, I did seed it there, check it out, great band

Thanks !  +T
Sounds nice.

[studio_geek]

Doug Oade has a working, MOD Fostex FR-2 and says that he'll be posting samples shortly.

Yeah, but can he BEAT B&H's price for it...  <BFG>...
$1219.95  from Oade stock and 1500.00 with the MODs. I priced  4 Toshiba 5 gig cards at 540.00  and have 4 on the way - one sweet deal.
SG

[BobW]

Doug Oade has a working, MOD Fostex FR-2 and says that he'll be posting samples shortly.

Yeah, but can he BEAT B&H's price for it...  <BFG>...
$1219.95  from Oade stock and 1500.00 with the MODs. I priced  4 Toshiba 5 gig cards at 540.00  and have 4 on the way - one sweet deal.
SG

Under $110 for 5 GBs PC Cards ? Where ? I need at least one more for 24/96.

I think that Doug is pricing fairly on the Mods  -  parts, labor, & expertise all need to be factored in.
His shelve price is very near B&H's and his support is priceless.
I found it cheaper to buy one from him and have it shipped, than to go to B&H (down the street from my office) and pay 8.65% tax.

I may start a user's group, if there's interest and one doesn't already exist.

[F.O.Bean]

werent there weird issues w/ the slot cards and clicks/pops

just wondering, and if you can write to HD w/ out those worries, then screw it

what HD sizes come on those it CAN write to pcm cards and HD simultaneously right ?

[BobW]

werent there weird issues w/ the slot cards and clicks/pops

just wondering, and if you can write to HD w/ out those worries, then screw it

what HD sizes come on those it CAN write to pcm cards and HD simultaneously right ?

The Hard drive is a PC Card Drive aka PCMCIA 1.8" Hard drive

The FR-2 uses this Hard Drive or Compact Flash Memory Cards

The PCMCIA HD is the size of a VX Pocket lappy interface.
The Compact flash cards are the same from the digital cameras.

BTW, no inherent ticks and pops in the media, perhaps even less than digital tape due to error checking called CRC.

[F.O.Bean]

beautiful and hows the build quality

this may be the next 'BIG' toy

[BobW]

beautiful and hows the build quality

this may be the next 'BIG' toy

It has a plasticy, hollow vibe to it, like alot of modern electronic devices.
I've played with the one at B&H alot. 

Trying to figger out what to carry it in. 
I'm guessing a well-padded camera bag may do it, perhaps a frame for surety.
Getting power together, never needed 12v with UA-5 & the PDA.....

[F.O.Bean]

i have a 12v 12 amp battery sitting here, wonder how long that would run

that may be the way to go

hmmm, why are all these toys so damn expensive

thanks for the info bob, i appreciate it

[caymanreview]

just stumbled upon this thread.

im about to make the urchase of a Warm Mod FR2...

where is everyone finding the cheapest 5gb pcmcia cards at? i found some online for 135/139 and i hear that might be the cheapest???

[caymanreview]

and the usb 1 problem can be solved with something as simple as this:
http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/configurator/PartsInfo.asp?root=us&ktcpartno=FCR-HS2/ATA&referid=28

30$ for usb2.0 sounds well worth it when we are talking about doing 24/96 and 24/192!

[BobW]

Well the Oade T-Mod FR-2 has arrrived (somewhere) at least a month before the SD-722.

When I find who has it, I'll post a recording of some NYC performance, MBHO 440CLs>>T-Mod. FR-2.
Keep an eye on the Kick-Down.

[zhianosatch]

your sluttiness is beyond belief, dustin. beyond belief.

[caymanreview]

ehh, i didnt go for a fr2

im not sure what i want to do now. huge change at work for e that will yeild me with little time to tape but ALOT more cash

thinking about "downgrading" to a wmod ua5 > jb3 for the time being

[BobW]

ehh, i didnt go for a fr2

im not sure what i want to do now. huge change at work for e that will yeild me with little time to tape but ALOT more cash

thinking about "downgrading" to a wmod ua5 > jb3 for the time being

Ain't nothing wrong with that rig at all.
Especially if CD is your goal.

+T for better employment. Don't forget that we work to have the things that we enjoy, 'tho.   

[caymanreview]

yeah, at this point im trying to better my life, and then my taping rig 2nd

actually, im gonna do my playback system first, and then look into a better rig

there is no use doing 24bit if i cant do it justice on playback, it makes no sense to me

this "downgrade" will shoot 500$ right into my pocket for playback gear. and with this new oppourtunity at work, i will have alot more time to just sit and listen to my tapes in the long run

[BobW]

In [Pres, A/Ds and Processors] section and also in the [Kick-Down] there is a link to a BT of a test of the Oade T-Mod FR-2 both with and without the Apogee Mini-MP in front using a set of Gefells MG200s recording "The Big Wu" on 8-21-2004

[timP]

have you FR-2 users found a way to beat the usb 1?
and how long are the transfer times for a 3 hour concert in 24 bit?

just curious

[BobW]

have you FR-2 users found a way to beat the usb 1?
and how long are the transfer times for a 3 hour concert in 24 bit?

just curious

Sorry to beat this to death, but..........

I have a Kingston USB2.0 ATA card reader.
It is about as fast as any harddrive on my system.
Drive pops out of FR-2, plugs into reader and it is then a HD on my DAW.
There is no actual transfer time.

CF Memory readers are available as well.

This works for the PDAudio, as well as the FR-2.

If you need any links or more details, feel free to hit me off the list.

-Bob

[timP]

thanks,
now I remember reading it before...

I want one badly......................

[BobW]

thanks,
now I remember reading it before...

I want one badly......................

The link to the reader in in the portable tapeless recordists group links file, I can dig it up if you like.

BTW, like the new avi.
Bob needs a pith helmut to look like a fine British Colonial Explorer   

[BenJammin42]

Just starting my taping hobby and bought this all-in-one FR2...  Should be arriving tomorrow...  My first few tapings this late winter will be a band that will let me feed off their soundboard...  So I think I should be set by powering with the AC plug, going SB RCA out to FR2's analog xlr in & saving to two 4 gb compact flash cards...

Am I missing anything?  Will going up to 24/96 make a difference when taping off a board (could be noisy bar environ)?  I plan to have some mics by festival season, but trying to space out my purchases...  Thanks for any info...

[wbrisette]

Will going up to 24/96 make a difference when taping off a board (could be noisy bar environ)?

Read through this thread and I think you'll have your answer.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=34529.0

Wayne

[BenJammin42]

Thanks, that helps clear me up on the differences between 24/48 and 24/96...  But how bout the difference between using mics and plugging into the soundboard?

[wbrisette]

Thanks, that helps clear me up on the differences between 24/48 and 24/96...  But how bout the difference between using mics and plugging into the soundboard?

And sampling rate? If that's the question then the answer is the same. However, if you have the space and extra processing power, and you REALLY want to, then go for it. I don't think you'll tell much difference. If you were in a studio doing strings or acoustic guitar, then I'd say go for 96K since you might hear some differences there, but in general for what we are doing (with or without a soundboard) it isn't going to matter and you're better off saving your drive space.

Wayne

[zowie]

I think the marketing folks have been eyeballing the economy and are waiting for the best time to launch product. I wouldn't doubt that Tascam releases a product fast.  Why not ?

We'd buy the stuff even if gasoline was $3.00 a gallon.  We're gear sluts, and this is only our HOBBY...  
Rick

We have a prophet among us.