Topic: question - help me find a recorder...

[phatdats]

hey everyone, I have been a longtime taper and a member of these boards for a while, but have been out of the loop for a coupla years.  I was hoping to get some input on getting a new recorder.  I am currently running:
gefell>V2>minime>rme multiface (or vx pocket)>PC

I am thinking about ditching the laptop and possibly the minime.

Here are my requirements:
 - 4 channels @ 24/96k
 - reasonable cost (under $1500 - r-4pro would be the highest I can go)
 - something that DOESN'T resample digi input (i case I keep my minime)
 - had the ability to mix and match inputs (ie - ch 1&2 analogue and 3+4 digi )
 - has the ability to record 4 seperate mono analogue tracks

I would like the option to do 4 tracks @24/192 but again, I cannot afford a SD 744!!!!!!

I have pretty much decided on an R-44, but have a coupla concerns. these boards are so long, I have spent the better part of the weekend looking for answers and still have none!

 -  does the R44 SEAMLESSLY split at 2gb?
 - are there any audible artifacts from changing gain or trim while recording (pops, etc...)?
 -  we have all decided that sd cards above 8gb can be used correct?
 - if on external battery, will the r44 seamlessly switch to internal AA batts as backup with out loosing any recording?
 - does the r44 actually write data while recording, or is there a "save" operation when recording has         stopped?
 - are the analogue inputs line level, or do they pass thru some sort of preamp stage? I know that all circuts color sound, but will it drastically change the sound of my V2?
- is it possible to send the R44 four spdif channels, or must some of th inputs be analogue?
 - what is the general feeling on the a/d convertors? (please keep in mind that I own an ad500, ad1000 and a minime... love that apogee sound!)
 - on the R44, can record 4 analogue signals while sending a spdif output at the same time? can you assign what goes to spdif out or is it a mix?
-can u record spdiff and send it back out digi at the same time? is that signal just routed in>out, or does it go thru the recording process and is there any altercation or resampling?
 

thanks to anyone who feels like replying!  again I really am not looking to spend a ton (read - SD744) and would just the same keep my current rig (which can do 8 channels @24/192)


Steve

[John Willett]

I was talking to Edirol at the PLASA show in London yesterday.

I would think that the R-44 can do large cards as even the R-09HR has been upgraded to take 32GB cards.

You can link two R-44s to do 8-track recording - the R-44 has the same mic. pres as the R-4 Pro.

For your other questions why not drop a line to Edirol themselves for the definitive answer.

[stevetoney]

hey everyone, I have been a longtime taper and a member of these boards for a while, but have been out of the loop for a coupla years.  I was hoping to get some input on getting a new recorder.  I am currently running:
gefell>V2>minime>rme multiface (or vx pocket)>PC

Steve

I don't have an R-44 but I've also done alot of research on it.  I'll take first crack at answering with a caveat that I will say where I'm not sure of the answer...

 -  does the R44 SEAMLESSLY split at 2gb?   YES
 - are there any audible artifacts from changing gain or trim while recording (pops, etc...)?  NO
 -  we have all decided that sd cards above 8gb can be used correct?  YES, although some slower cards or some manufacturors don't work.
 - if on external battery, will the r44 seamlessly switch to internal AA batts as backup with out loosing any recording?   YES
 - does the r44 actually write data while recording, or is there a "save" operation when recording has stopped?  Not sure, but based on the answer to the previous question, I think it writes while recording.
- are the analogue inputs line level, or do they pass thru some sort of preamp stage? I know that all circuts color sound, but will it drastically change the sound of my V2?  All inputs pass through preamp stage.  I've asked this question alot already because the R-4 totally IMHO whacked your preamp.  I need conclusive evidence that R-44 does not do the same, but as I've said I've already asked the qeustion and have recieved many opinions but no objective evidence.  Based on my experience with the R-4, I am assuming your preamps are largely useless or at least SIGNIFICANTLY colored by the R-44 preamp stage...which for me is the sigle largest design problem with this product.
 - is it possible to send the R44 four spdif channels, or must some of th inputs be analogue?  Can't answer this
 - what is the general feeling on the a/d convertors? (please keep in mind that I own an ad500, ad1000 and a minime... love that apogee sound!) 
Can't say for sure because again I don't own one, but if my R-4 experience remains true on the R-44, you'll likely lose your apogee sound...that's why bypassing the preamp stage is needed on this machine.  Sorry, others will claim that the R-44 is totally transparent based on frequency tests.  Proof is in the pudding...listen to the archive.  If R-44 doesn't have a distinctively warm sound to it (which I actually rather like) compared to other decks, I'll eat ma hat!  There may even be some V-2 and V-3 samples out there by now.  If they sound more like the Grace sound, then I'm wrong.  I think what you'll find though is that they sound more like the R-44 without any preamp than they do a stand-alone V-3.  My opinion.  I hope someone else can provide some more objective testing to prove me wrong, but right now I'm just reaching some prelinary conclusions based on a) skepticism from R-4 ownership and b) listening sample on archive.
 - on the R44, can record 4 analogue signals while sending a spdif output at the same time? can you assign what goes to spdif out or is it a mix? ??  Someone else??
-can u record spdiff and send it back out digi at the same time? is that signal just routed in>out, or does it go thru the recording process and is there any altercation or resampling?  ??  Someone else??

Hope this helps!

EDIT:  I must edit to add that I'm almost in exactly the same boat as you are.  I've spent alot of money in the last two years and finally found the sound I like with my rig, which is based around the Mini-MP.  As much as I want to go to 4 channels, I'm reluctant because the bottom line is that I know I'd be giving up my preferred sound.  I'm just not willing to do that just yet.  Having said that, I've just recently heard one sample of my mics directly into an Oade ACM R-44 and have to admit that it sounds outstanding on its own.  However, if I were to move to the ACM R-44, pretty sure I wouldn't be keeping my Mini-MP.

[flintstone]

Regarding the preamp quality of the R-44, Digifish posted his test results here
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109081

I think the tests show the R-44 uses a preamp that's very similar to the one
in the R-09HR.  I think it's good enough by itself for recording loud sources,
but if you're recording in a quiet setting you'll get audibly better results with
an external pre (or two) in front of the R-44.

Flintstone

[stevetoney]

Regarding the preamp quality of the R-44, Digifish posted his test results here
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109081

I think the tests show the R-44 uses a preamp that's very similar to the one
in the R-09HR.  I think it's good enough by itself for recording loud sources,
but if you're recording in a quiet setting you'll get audibly better results with
an external pre (or two) in front of the R-44.

Flintstone

Hey Flintstone, I'm probably gonna ask a REALLY stupid question here, but it's one that I've kinda wanted to ask for a long time but have been afraid to for fear that it would appear to be such a dumb one.  So on the assumption that no question is a dumb question, here goes...

OK, it's intuitively obvious that lower noise is better for recording.  It's also intuitively obvious that noise issues aren't nearly as much a concern for louder concerts as acoustic performances or spoken events.  So, from that perspective, I can easily understand how lowering the noise floor by putting a HQ preamp out front of the R-44 would help keep noise as low as possible.

OTOH, I have a PMD-620 and I've recorded some pretty quiet events without hearing much noise.  It's been said that the 620 isn't as quiet as the R-09HR but that's not really germain to my ultimate question...which I'm getting to. 

Back many moons ago, when I was converting my analog cassette collection to digital for listening in my car, I found that the noise reduction algorithms in Cool Edit Pro (obviously now Audition) were very effective in reducing background hiss from my cassettes.  What was particularly joyous was how well the hiss from tape 'generations' was reduced to nothing. 

Now I don't own audiophile equipment, so I never completely analyzed if noise reduction degrades the quality of the good stuff, but my ears didn't seem to care. 

(Finally the question!!!)  So, my question is...why invest in $1000 preamp to reduce noise when I could effectively reduce noise by isolating it in post?

(the reason that I've called this a dumb question is that it intuitively seems better not to have the noise there in the first place, but if noise reduction seems to work so well, have wondered ever since the beginning about this.)

Thanks for bearing with me...

Steve


EDIT:  Forgive the threadjack...hopefully only a slight blip rather than a complete diversion.

[javertim]

(Finally the question!!!)  So, my question is...why invest in $1000 preamp to reduce noise when I could effectively reduce noise by isolating it in post?

I stopped using the "hiss reduction" in Audition a long time ago because it was seriously lopping off the high end (even on the "light hiss reduction" setting).  I guess that's understandable, because any kind of tape or mechanical hiss is going to live in the highest frequencies of the recording. ... I just found that once the hiss was gone, so was much of the ping of higher instruments (cymbals, etc.).  Also, depending on the degree of reduction, the effect can make it sound like you're listening to the recording through long, narrow tubes. ... However, I guess if you're going to be listening to your stuff on a car radio, you're not going to get the full impact of highs as much as someone who is, say, listening on headphones or something like that.

[stevetoney]

I've def had that experience with any attempts at heavy editing in post, but had pretty good luck with background hiss.  Maybe it's a function of the nature of the noise and how well the frequency of that particular noise can be 'enveloped' to isolate it from frequencies in the music.

[Kevin T]

I've had mixed results with NR Noise Reduction on CEP/ AA. But my bets results (no suprize) have always been with consistant amplitude white or pink type background. The other trick is with some inventive use of scripts to only apply NR to non active "silence"speech / music segments You can use significant amounts of NR with no percievable distortion to the active speech/music. But as usual YMMV.   

[JasonSobel]

Steve,

another potential solution would be two Tascam HD-P2's (which would also be within your price range)

Advantages

• 4 channels at 24/192 (very easy to sync the two decks to the same clock
• 4 channels of S/PDIF input, or 2 S/PDIF +2 analog
• 4 channels of S/PDIF out with no resampling (S/PDIF outs are active all the time, using either the S/PDIF or analog inputs)
• could leave one deck at home if you knew ahead of time that you'd only need 2 channels

Disadvantages

• Size.  one HD-P2 is a bit larger than the R44.  two HD-P2's will be larger still.
• won't write more than 8GB to a single CF card.  two channels of 24/192 will fill up 8GB in 2 hours. Though this would be much less of an issue if recording at 24/96 and 4 hours per card.  (Tascam has been quiet about a firmware upgrade to fix this issue, and at this point, I am no longer expecting one from them.)
• more expensive than a signal R44 deck

I'm mostly just throwing this out there as a potential solution.  yes it's a bulky, but the HD-P2 is a solid deck and it'll do what you want.  Depending on how often you are planning to do 4 channels, it could be a viable option.  oh, and some of your other questions, all are the answers that you'd want to hear (i.e. 2GB auto-split yes, no audible artifacts at the split correct, and seamlessly switching from external to internal power yes).

[stevetoney]

Steve,

another potential solution would be two Tascam HD-P2's (which would also be within your price range)

Advantages

• 4 channels at 24/192 (very easy to sync the two decks to the same clock
• 4 channels of S/PDIF input, or 2 S/PDIF +2 analog
• 4 channels of S/PDIF out with no resampling (S/PDIF outs are active all the time, using either the S/PDIF or analog inputs)
• could leave one deck at home if you knew ahead of time that you'd only need 2 channels

Disadvantages

• Size.  one HD-P2 is a bit larger than the R44.  two HD-P2's will be larger still.
• won't write more than 8GB to a single CF card.  two channels of 24/192 will fill up 8GB in 2 hours. Though this would be much less of an issue if recording at 24/96 and 4 hours per card.  (Tascam has been quiet about a firmware upgrade to fix this issue, and at this point, I am no longer expecting one from them.)
• more expensive than a signal R44 deck

I'm mostly just throwing this out there as a potential solution.  yes it's a bulky, but the HD-P2 is a solid deck and it'll do what you want.  Depending on how often you are planning to do 4 channels, it could be a viable option.  oh, and some of your other questions, all are the answers that you'd want to hear (i.e. 2GB auto-split yes, no audible artifacts at the split correct, and seamlessly switching from external to internal power yes).

Second this suggestion.  Gives you everything that you've specified in your list...plus the extras that you've asked for, or at least that you've implied you'd like in your questions.