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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: if_then_else on August 13, 2016, 12:39:14 AM
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Hi, I'm going to attend a music festival in Italy in early November. Two of my favourite bands will be performing at one of the main squares in the historical city centre. I've recorded them openly several times before (and it also comes in handy that one band member is the long standing FOH of the other band).
The thing is that, this time, the setting is a covered market. Therefore, rain or humidity shouldn't really be an issue and the impact of wind on the recording might be limited to cross-winds. [I'm going to bring my Rycote BBG's and the belonging windscreens with me anyway.] However, I'm wondering what mics and configurations would be suited best for such a setting (as there might be sound reflections from the big glass and steel roof in addition to the typical limitations of an open air festival). The music styles will be a blend of krautrock/psychedelica and electronic jazz repectively shoegaze/post-rock. So, it's going to be medium-loud to very loud.
I've got hypercardioids (MBHO KA500HN), cardioids (AT853), subcards (LineAudio CM3, MBHO KA300NB) and near-field omnis (LineAudio OM1). Running two sets of mics would also be an option. However, if possible, I'd prefer to limit the amount of gear that I'll to have to carry about with me on the train.
Any suggestions (or anecdotal evidence with similar venues) appreciated.
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I have taped in very similar environments. Just looking at the picture, you should expect terrible sound, sorry to say. Metal and glass with no acoustic treatment = bad sound. Loud rock/electronic genes are no help either. Best option, imho, would be a SBD plus audience pair low in the mix. Next best would be to get as close as you can (stage lip/on-stage) with cards or hypers. You need to use a polar pattern and configuration that will minimize/negate the nasty reflections and ear-bleeding mix you are likely to experience. Next would be to stack tape. In this environment, forget about a sweet spot. It doesn't exist. Sorry to be negative, and it's just my $.02, but don't have high expectations. It's difficult to make a nice sounding tape in a venue like that. I'm sure others may have good/better suggestions. Let us know how you tackled it.
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I would run the KA500 hypers in the best location you can get, and a SBD if possible? Like Boltman said, reflections will be EVERYWHERE, so I wouldn't run ANYTHING wider than a hyper or card! I ran MBHOs[ka200+ka500] for about 4 years[2007-2011] before I got my Schoeps, and the KA500HN is EXCELLENT at rejecting off-axis sounds, so I would bet the farm that those will pull the best tape, with the mics you mentioned :coolguy: And if you can get a SBD patch, I would setup by the SBD[if its in the audience and not side of stage], and run the ka500's PAS at the stacks, while pulling a SBD feed :)
EDIT: And most importantly, HAVE FUN :)
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Thanks boltman and F.O.Bean for your kind feedback.
As suggested, I'm going to try my luck with the KA500 hypers at the SBD area. I know the FOH engineers of both bands from previous taping / filming opportunities and they have always been more than helpful.
I'm also tempted to attend another club show in Florence (the night before this festival takes place). So, hopefully, I'll get to see at least one of these bands twice on their brief debut album anniversary tour.
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I agree with boltman, it does not matter what gear you use, the available sound is going to be shit, so that is the best you can hope to record. Hypers at a stack might work. If you are any distance from a sound source and under that roof, the echo is going to overwhelm anything else. Your best bet would be to plug into the SBD, as long as it is mixed right. If it isn't, you might be able to mix some ambient mics in to fatten it up.
I have taped in very similar environments. Just looking at the picture, you should expect terrible sound, sorry to say. Metal and glass with no acoustic treatment = bad sound. Loud rock/electronic genes are no help either. Best option, imho, would be a SBD plus audience pair low in the mix. Next best would be to get as close as you can (stage lip/on-stage) with cards or hypers. You need to use a polar pattern and configuration that will minimize/negate the nasty reflections and ear-bleeding mix you are likely to experience. Next would be to stack tape. In this environment, forget about a sweet spot. It doesn't exist. Sorry to be negative, and it's just my $.02, but don't have high expectations. It's difficult to make a nice sounding tape in a venue like that. I'm sure others may have good/better suggestions. Let us know how you tackled it.
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I'm no expert at all but in this situation I'd go for a stack tape. Probably with hypers.
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I'll throw my two bits in here. I agree with the hyper choice if you can be in the audience closer to the stage. I offer a slightly different variation on using Hypers. Try them crossed in XY about narrower than 90' angle, bwteen 60-90. Of course, this won't be in "stereo" but then recording from one stack isn't really "stereo" anyway. I've done this successfully with our Beyer M201 Hypers in small clubs with terrible acoustics. The finest example I have of that was done less than 2 feet from an upstairs balcony stack (no sub woofers up there). It seriously smokes the SBD my buddy made that same night. (non taper friendly act, Dallas TX, 1986 or I'd point you to the sample)
This is certainly a more offbeat and probably less "recommended" configuration for your situation, but I thought I might offer it.
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I'll throw my two bits in here. I agree with the hyper choice if you can be in the audience closer to the stage. I offer a slightly different variation on using Hypers. Try them crossed in XY about narrower than 90' angle, bwteen 60-90. Of course, this won't be in "stereo" but then recording from one stack isn't really "stereo" anyway. I've done this successfully with our Beyer M201 Hypers in small clubs with terrible acoustics. The finest example I have of that was done less than 2 feet from an upstairs balcony stack (no sub woofers up there). It seriously smokes the SBD my buddy made that same night. (non taper friendly act, Dallas TX, 1986 or I'd point you to the sample)
This is certainly a more offbeat and probably less "recommended" configuration for your situation, but I thought I might offer it.
Ha! This will be my 10th or 11th time seeing the headliners of the night. They've almost always managed to oversaturate the PA or one of their on-stage monitors at some point.
BTW: Their musical style is hugely influenced by bands like Mogwai and Hood, so there are lots of dynamic and tempo changes. Moreover: They also use trumpets, string instruments etc. and these instruments add to the very "full" sound of the band. My fear is that stack taping might in fact ruin the "stereo" image. So, if I can record a 4-track matrix again, I'd like to capture the "full sound" aspect as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2j8QWFp2Jw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2j8QWFp2Jw)
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I'll throw my two bits in here. I agree with the hyper choice if you can be in the audience closer to the stage. I offer a slightly different variation on using Hypers. Try them crossed in XY about narrower than 90' angle, bwteen 60-90. Of course, this won't be in "stereo" but then recording from one stack isn't really "stereo" anyway. I've done this successfully with our Beyer M201 Hypers in small clubs with terrible acoustics. The finest example I have of that was done less than 2 feet from an upstairs balcony stack (no sub woofers up there). It seriously smokes the SBD my buddy made that same night. (non taper friendly act, Dallas TX, 1986 or I'd point you to the sample)
This is certainly a more offbeat and probably less "recommended" configuration for your situation, but I thought I might offer it.
Ha! This will be my 10th or 11th time seeing the headliners of the night. They've almost always managed to oversaturate the PA or one of their on-stage monitors at some point.
BTW: Their musical style is hugely influenced by bands like Mogwai and Hood, so there are lots of dynamic and tempo changes. Moreover: They also use trumpets, string instruments etc. and these instruments add to the very "full" sound of the band. My fear is that stack taping might in fact ruin the "stereo" image. So, if I can record a 4-track matrix again, I'd like to capture the "full sound" aspect as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2j8QWFp2Jw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2j8QWFp2Jw)
Well stack taping will definitely not produce a stereo image as we each say. The answers had been heading you in that direction, so I added the X-Y aspect. I don't recognize those styles so I can't speak to this music, but anytime brass gets involved, I know what you mean with oversaturating PA systems. Some soundmen can't handle the close micing or Di aspect of horn instruments. I'd agree that if you get SBD plus mics your'e already ahead of the game.
Enjoy the show!
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If you more or less have the run of the place, I'd use the hypers in a typical near-spaced config at the stagelip or on-stage, and also record the SBD or a pair of close stack mics (probably the subcards or omnis if very close to stacks). That way you get the horns and opn-stage imaging from the stagelip pair, plus vocal clarity and reinforcement of the weak stuff from the SBD or stack mics. You can make outstanding tapes in pretty crappy sounding venues this way.
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If you more or less have the run of the place, I'd use the hypers in a typical near-spaced config at the stagelip or on-stage, and also record the SBD or a pair of close stack mics (probably the subcards or omnis if very close to stacks). That way you get the horns and opn-stage imaging from the stagelip pair, plus vocal clarity and reinforcement of the weak stuff from the SBD or stack mics. You can make outstanding tapes in pretty crappy sounding venues this way.
Thanks. I'm going get in touch with the 2 bands involved next week (after my holiday request has been approved).
If I'm not mistaken, the shows at the covered market used to be public last year (in contrast to the shows at the local opera house).
So, if both bands are giving me the go-ahead, there shouldn't be any issue with the local promoter, either.
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Onstage with SBD is your best bet.
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Just one more question: When recording on-stage with Rycote BBGs and subcards, what near-coincident stereo technique would be best and how far apart would you space the capsules? Using BBGs might make it impossible to use XY, and (if I'm not completely mistaken) the defaults for ORTF, DIN or NOS have been defined with regular cardioids in mind.
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Just one more question: When recording on-stage with Rycote BBGs and subcards, what near-coincident stereo technique would be best and how far apart would you space the capsules?
The short answer is a bit more spacing and/or more angle than would be used for cardioids.
The comprehensive answer is to pick the most suitable combination of microphone angle and spacing from this reference chart- http://www.mmad.info/MAD/2%20Ch/SRA%20Hypo10.pdf (http://www.mmad.info/MAD/2%20Ch/SRA%20Hypo10.pdf)
Use it by first estimating or measuring the angle in which all sound sources on stage will fit as seen from the microphone position. Find the curve on the chart which shows that angle in the small oval located at the center of the curve (shown as a +/- angle, so if the band fits in a 90 degree angle, choose the curve labeled +/-45). Then choose any angle between microphones from the left side of the chart and any spacing from the bottom of the chart which both fall along that curve, and which doesn't land within the shaded regions at the top or bottom of the chart. If you want more audience ambience use a more narrow spacing and wider angle, if you want less audience ambience use a wider spacing and less angle, if you want even less audience ambience switch to a more directional microphone pattern as well.
If you want to learn more about these charts, how to use them to your advantage, and how configs like NOS, DIN, and ORTF are simply specific points along a continuum, read this paper- http://microphone-data.com/media/filestore/articles/Stereo%20zoom-10.pdf (http://microphone-data.com/media/filestore/articles/Stereo%20zoom-10.pdf)
X/Y isn't suitable for subcards as they aren't directional enough to produce effective stereo without any spacing between them, and to my mind it isn't very suitable for cardioids used for a straight stereo-pair recording of an ensemble either. X/Y becomes suitable when using supercards with an angle of something like 120 degrees between them, hypers with an angle of around 105, or bidirectionals at right angles or a bit less.