Topic: NJB3 v HiMD ADC Comparison

[zowie]

This evening I recorded several CD selection from my stereo to the line inputs on recently arrived MZ-RH910 and my well used NJB3 to try to compare their respective A-D converters.  I used Johnny Cash's American III, the DCC remastered gold version of Pet Sounds, and Grieg's Lyrische Stucke performed by Andrew Gavrilov on a "4D" DG.  After making the recordings I uploaded them via USB to my PC and played them back on my PC system, then burned a CD and listened to it on the stereo.

The differences were not big.  The NJB sounded a little bit cleaner and picked up more of the recorded room ambience but sometimes sounded more "digital."  The Hi-MD had a fatter sound and brought out more instruments in the mix but seemed a tad less clean.  The Hi-MD sounded a little more upfront than the NJB, could be positive or negative depending upon what you're recording.

Conclusions:  I still say the NJB ADC does not suck.  My preference goes to the Sony, but it didn't blow the NJB out of the water.  As between these two choices

If you have to go directly mic in, of course you'd want the Sony because the NJB's so-called mic pre truly sucks.

If you have an outboard ADC then the difference in the internal ADCs is irrelevant, so one would probably pick the Sony if size mattered and the NJB if continuous recording time mattered.  (There are some conflicting reports as to whether the Sony is bit accurate; that'd have to be resolved.)

With outboard pre but no outboard ADC (my setup when I can't tape to laptop for whatever reason), I'd go with the Sony unless the tape flip is going to be a problem.  Of the 94 min disc is not going to be enough, the NJB was a close enough contender that I'd reach for it rather than use data compression.

[Krispy D]

nice comp. +T for the effort.  I found 'something' about the the sony MD to sound better than the jb3 when recording mic in but never took it any further cause I switched to an external pre and adc.

thanks again for the comp

[poorlyconditioned]

This evening I recorded several CD selection from my stereo to the line inputs on recently arrived MZ-RH910 and my well used NJB3 to try to compare their respective A-D converters.  I used Johnny Cash's American III, the DCC remastered gold version of Pet Sounds, and Grieg's Lyrische Stucke performed by Andrew Gavrilov on a "4D" DG.  After making the recordings I uploaded them via USB to my PC and played them back on my PC system, then burned a CD and listened to it on the stereo.

The differences were not big.  The NJB sounded a little bit cleaner and picked up more of the recorded room ambience but sometimes sounded more "digital."  The Hi-MD had a fatter sound and brought out more instruments in the mix but seemed a tad less clean.  The Hi-MD sounded a little more upfront than the NJB, could be positive or negative depending upon what you're recording.

Conclusions:  I still say the NJB ADC does not suck.  My preference goes to the Sony, but it didn't blow the NJB out of the water.  As between these two choices

If you have to go directly mic in, of course you'd want the Sony because the NJB's so-called mic pre truly sucks.

If you have an outboard ADC then the difference in the internal ADCs is irrelevant, so one would probably pick the Sony if size mattered and the NJB if continuous recording time mattered.  (There are some conflicting reports as to whether the Sony is bit accurate; that'd have to be resolved.)

With outboard pre but no outboard ADC (my setup when I can't tape to laptop for whatever reason), I'd go with the Sony unless the tape flip is going to be a problem.  Of the 94 min disc is not going to be enough, the NJB was a close enough contender that I'd reach for it rather than use data compression.

Another +T for the effort.  I use both NJB3 and MD.  I use NJB3 with an external ADC and MD for line or mic in.  I think the NJB3 ADC is alright, but I was getting occasional hard drive noises.  Plus I believe there is no analog level control.   I think that is only digital gain.

  Richard

[graemecogger]

That's very useful, thanks.  I'm currently in the process of deciding between these options...

[zowie]

Today I thought I'd give the RH910 a little field use just to get used to it.  I took it to a free chamber music recital at my local library that I otherwise had no particular interest in taping, along with the Sound Professionals In-Ear Binaurals, which I haven't used for several years.  Cheap, small, quick and dirty.  Recorder and mics fit in my shirt pocket.  Fit in my pants pocket together with a cell phone and keys.

First, this recorder is a PITA to set up and use.  My prior MD's were Sharps and I though they were elegant devices. Alas they used ATRAC.   The Sony is, as reputed, much less intuitive with lots of menus to go through to get everything set.  Moreover, you have to apply settings in a certain order. Like you can't switch from AGC to manual levels until after you've put the deck into record.  I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I've been recording for 30 years starting with open reel and if it takes me several minutes and several tries to get a deck rolling with the rights settings, there's something seriously lacking in its ergonomics.

Another example: I take the deck out of the box and for the life if me I don't know where the AC jack is.  It looks like someone forgot to punch it out at the fabricators.  Had to go to the manual.  Turns out there's a teeny sliding door that covers either the USB port or the AC jack.  Who ever heard of such a thing?   Even putting in the gum stick was daunting -- I couldn't find any marking for positive and negative and had to check the manual.  Later I noticed that there's a tiny stencil on the back of the case, but there's nothing in the battery compartment where the marking is normally found.

Well, on to the recording.  As I started listening, I was preparing to proclaim to one and all that this mic (in any of its several incarnations) and recorder combo should be the number 1 recommendation in answer to the frequest question "What should I buy to start recording if I have virtually no money."  Not a giant killer, but for not much more than $200 if you shop around, it's recording quality that one can live with until they can trade up.  Then as I listened further . . .

 &*%$# ! ! !

The loud parts totally brickwalled the internal preamp.  The levels were okay, actually low, peaking around -8 (examined on PC), and I've used these mics on only plug-in power with much higher SPLs without problems, so it's got to be the preamp.  And when I say loud parts, I'm talking relatively.  This is unamplified chamber music and I wasn't even real close up.

But this story is to be continued.  I later found buried in the menus a choice of two mic sensitivity settings, and I'm guessing I was on the wrong one.  (I never know if "mic high" is supposed to mean the setting that gives you higher gain, or for using high sensitivity mics.)   So maybe on the other setting, the deck will do just fine.  Others report decent results, so that was probably the problem.  I'm still wary, though, because this was NOT a loud concert.  Stay tuned.

Another observation:  uploading to the computer took much longer than the NJB3.  I bet this thing only does USB 1.1.  Or maybe Sonic Stage is somehow screwing with things.  Not a deal breaker for me by any means, but it annoys me that something like this should be substandard.

[poorlyconditioned]

Today I thought I'd give the RH910 a little field use just to get used to it.  I took it to a free chamber music recital at my local library that I otherwise had no particular interest in taping, along with the Sound Professionals In-Ear Binaurals, which I haven't used for several years.  Cheap, small, quick and dirty.  Recorder and mics fit in my shirt pocket.  Fit in my pants pocket together with a cell phone and keys.

First, this recorder is a PITA to set up and use.  My prior MD's were Sharps and I though they were elegant devices. Alas they used ATRAC.   The Sony is, as reputed, much less intuitive with lots of menus to go through to get everything set.  Moreover, you have to apply settings in a certain order. Like you can't switch from AGC to manual levels until after you've put the deck into record.  I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I've been recording for 30 years starting with open reel and if it takes me several minutes and several tries to get a deck rolling with the rights settings, there's something seriously lacking in its ergonomics.

Another example: I take the deck out of the box and for the life if me I don't know where the AC jack is.  It looks like someone forgot to punch it out at the fabricators.  Had to go to the manual.  Turns out there's a teeny sliding door that covers either the USB port or the AC jack.  Who ever heard of such a thing?   Even putting in the gum stick was daunting -- I couldn't find any marking for positive and negative and had to check the manual.  Later I noticed that there's a tiny stencil on the back of the case, but there's nothing in the battery compartment where the marking is normally found.

Well, on to the recording.  As I started listening, I was preparing to proclaim to one and all that this mic (in any of its several incarnations) and recorder combo should be the number 1 recommendation in answer to the frequest question "What should I buy to start recording if I have virtually no money."  Not a giant killer, but for not much more than $200 if you shop around, it's recording quality that one can live with until they can trade up.  Then as I listened further . . .

 &*%$# ! ! !

The loud parts totally brickwalled the internal preamp.  The levels were okay, actually low, peaking around -8 (examined on PC), and I've used these mics on only plug-in power with much higher SPLs without problems, so it's got to be the preamp.  And when I say loud parts, I'm talking relatively.  This is unamplified chamber music and I wasn't even real close up.

But this story is to be continued.  I later found buried in the menus a choice of two mic sensitivity settings, and I'm guessing I was on the wrong one.  (I never know if "mic high" is supposed to mean the setting that gives you higher gain, or for using high sensitivity mics.)   So maybe on the other setting, the deck will do just fine.  Others report decent results, so that was probably the problem.  I'm still wary, though, because this was NOT a loud concert.  Stay tuned.

Another observation:  uploading to the computer took much longer than the NJB3.  I bet this thing only does USB 1.1.  Or maybe Sonic Stage is somehow screwing with things.  Not a deal breaker for me by any means, but it annoys me that something like this should be substandard.

(another) +T for the continued effort.  (Taping something you would not normally attend... a sign of a truely hooked taper.)

Let me step in and defend MD a bit.  First, you are right, the menus are annoying, esp. in the dark.  But here is what I do:
- menu (hold down button 2s) > record type: set to PCM or HiMD (HiMD if I need more than 90 mins)
- menu > record > mic sens: set to LO *always* unless really quiet.
(both the above hold until you change again)

- record+pause to enter record mode
- menu > record set > rec level > choose manual
Now *lock* the unit and the remote.

Wait any amount of time and go into the venue.  *On the remote* hit pause, and the recording will start!  Also, you can adjust levels on the fly with the scroll wheel on the remote.  If you have the top remove (RMC40EL or something like that), it will show levels and it is backlit.  Otherwise you'll have to look at your MD unit for levels.

The great thing is you can be is pause-record for *hours* and use very little battery.  Oh yeah, I've recorded over 6hrs on a single AA cell in the 800 model.

Finally, you can't blame brick wall on the MD alone.  I doubt you will have problems for classical music but for loud rock shows you need tweaked mics that can take higher input levels.  CSB or properly wired AT853 mics will do the trick.  But not Soundpros versions...

Anymore questions, feel free to ask...

Oh yeah, check out the following images if you want to see my stealth rig using AT853, self-made battery box, preamp, and of course the MD:
   www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~mannr/AT853

  Richard

[Roamer]

+T. I also have both JB3 and HiMD.
HiMD does only USB 1.1, or more precisely it can only burn at *4 speed, so USB2 would be pointless anyway. Get the latest release of SonicStage, there has been inprovements.

[itook2much]

But not Soundpros versions...

I use SP mics & batt box > Sony MZ-NH1.  I really don't think his problem is the mics.  Most likely it was using mic-in instead of line-in, little power for mics due to lack of batt box, & using the hi mic sensitivity.

I've used SP mics standing 20' away from Dinosaur Jr., so I KNOW the mics can handle it

[zowie]

It was an event I'd attend, but not something I'd tape.   

Poorlyconditioned, I was recording classical music, performed by small string & piano ensembles in a deadish room.   I've used these mics with no external battery power (Sharp MDs) at much louder events, like a jazz trio with full drum kit from 10 feet away.  The brickwalling was 100% from the MD's pre, not the mics.

That said, I don't totally blame the MD yet because I didn't try the mic-low setting.

As for going line-in, while it's always nice to bypass any circuitry you can, I'm pretty sure there is not enough volume at classical recitals to get decent levels with these or any of the other mics I own.

[poorlyconditioned]

It was an event I'd attend, but not something I'd tape.   

Poorlyconditioned, I was recording classical music, performed by small string & piano ensembles in a deadish room.   I've used these mics with no external battery power (Sharp MDs) at much louder events, like a jazz trio with full drum kit from 10 feet away.  The brickwalling was 100% from the MD's pre, not the mics.

That said, I don't totally blame the MD yet because I didn't try the mic-low setting.

As for going line-in, while it's always nice to bypass any circuitry you can, I'm pretty sure there is not enough volume at classical recitals to get decent levels with these or any of the other mics I own.

Yeah, I think low sens will fix it for you.  I've recorded some very loud shows using low sens.

For anything louder, though, get an external battery box.

As I said in the last message, I think you will really enjoy MD once you get used to the interface.

  Richard

[twoheadedboy]

I am still not convinced that the NJB3 ADC is only slightly worse than Sony Hi-MD. I have extensively used both with my same mic/pre rig (DSM-6S/EL > PA-24NJ) and have concluded that the NJB3 has very poor bass response and occassionally choppy highs (hi hats especially), whereas the MD is full and phat.

The difference IS very minute when you have ideal levels on the NJB3, though that's almost impossible because of the terrible level meters. However, record something that averages say -18dB on both as I have, normalize it, and you will see the increased noise and poor bass response of the NJB3 as compared to the Sony Hi-MD.

I just wish Sharp would get around to making a unit, because their stuff has always been more taper-friendly.

[zowie]

I am still not convinced that the NJB3 ADC is only slightly worse than Sony Hi-MD. I have extensively used both with my same mic/pre rig (DSM-6S/EL > PA-24NJ) and have concluded that the NJB3 has very poor bass response and occassionally choppy highs (hi hats especially), whereas the MD is full and phat.

The difference IS very minute when you have ideal levels on the NJB3, though that's almost impossible because of the terrible level meters. However, record something that averages say -18dB on both as I have, normalize it, and you will see the increased noise and poor bass response of the NJB3 as compared to the Sony Hi-MD.

I just wish Sharp would get around to making a unit, because their stuff has always been more taper-friendly.

Could be.  I was recording line in from CDs so I had ideal levels.

I recorded another recital with the same mic/recorder combo (there's always plenty of free classical performances to attend if you get plugged in to the local music colleges).   I haven't uploaded the file to look at the waveform, but with the mic pre set to low this time, I didn't hear the pre brickwalling, and this performance was louder at times than the prior one.  Good.

And I must say, other than a lack of weight in the low end of the piano, the timbre and balance of the performance was captured beautifully for such a cheap rig.  Too much audience noise, though.  That was to be expected recording an unamplified performance from mid-hall with omnis.  (Getting a good tape was not the point of this exercise).

I did hear what sounded like a few small glitches here and there.  Will have to check that out.  Taping for real this weekend and have to decide if I'm willing to rely on the MD.

[melontracks]

Well, on to the recording.  As I started listening, I was preparing to proclaim to one and all that this mic (in any of its several incarnations) and recorder combo should be the number 1 recommendation in answer to the frequest question "What should I buy to start recording if I have virtually no money."  Not a giant killer, but for not much more than $200 if you shop around, it's recording quality that one can live with until they can trade up.  Then as I listened further . . .

 &*%$# ! ! !

The loud parts totally brickwalled the internal preamp.  The levels were okay, actually low, peaking around -8 (examined on PC), and I've used these mics on only plug-in power with much higher SPLs without problems, so it's got to be the preamp.  And when I say loud parts, I'm talking relatively.  This is unamplified chamber music and I wasn't even real close up.

If you were using the mic-in, did you have the mic AGC set to "standard" or "loud music"? I always have it set to "loud music" on my MZ-NH900.  I have tried to make recordings of relatively quiet shows (jazz, etc) with the "standard" AGC setting and they sounded awful.  If you had manual levels, then it was the Hi-sens setting that got you.  Hi-sens is good for reocording birds chirping in your neighbor's neighbor's yard, but not much else.  Try to by-pass the mic AGC unless you have to go too stealth to set levels in the open.  In that case, use the "loud music" AGC and lo-sens setting.  I even use that setting at venues as quiet as comedy clubs, and it works well.

[zowie]

It was "hi sens."  Much better on low sens.  I don't use the AGC settings.