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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: carpa on May 25, 2009, 03:52:52 AM
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I own a HR and I want to upgrade to balanced mics. I think I'll get a couple of Naiant omnis as a start (they are cheap and sound good) and I want to be open also towards other mics to borrow or buy in the future.
I want to pull out nice recordings of my own piano solo and classical chamber music concerts to use them as a demo, so I need a light portable rig but I'm not interested in stealthing.
In orther to do this I have two possibilities:
1) keep the Edirol and buy a preamp with balanced inputs and line output. I am waiting for mshilarious new preamp which might be a solution.
2) sell the Edirol and buy a Marantz pdm 661. It would be a stock unit since I live in Italy and Oade doesn't ship overseas, then I don't want concerns about warranty.
Nobody knows how Naiant preamp will sound as it is not been released yet, but I'd like to know if anybody has made a comparison between the two decks in terms of sound of the mic preamp stage and - most of all - of the line stage, the latter involving the sound of the AD stage which would "make the sound" in the working conditions I described.
Thank you all
c
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Suggest keeping the deck and find an external preamp to work the mics in best manner.
Line input on the HR is quiet and does not overload with high voltage input from any brand of preamp you might choose, so no liability with using this deck for this purpose.
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Suggest keeping the deck and find an external preamp to work the mics in best manner.
Line input on the HR is quiet and does not overload with high voltage input from any brand of preamp you might choose, so no liability with using this deck for this purpose.
Guysonic,
That's what I've always been told.
But why NBox users ( not all of them, of course) keep saying that the R-09HR can't take a hot signal, that it will distort at lower trims, with lots of bass distortion, crunchy sound etc?
Thanks in advance ;)
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Both the R-09HR and the PMD661 are good recorders.
I like the PMD661's XLR and 1/4-inch inputs, its SPDIF digital input, 48V phantom
power, and its independent gain controls for right and left channels. The R-09HR
lacks all of the above. While the R-09HR has a good preamp, the PMD661's has
lower self noise.
The R-09HR is smaller, has better battery life, and I prefer the R-09HR's external
switches that let you make quick changes to mic sensitivity, limiter, and low cut filter.
The PMD661 buries these important settings for mic recording in the software
menus.
Digifish has posted links to recordings made with the R-09HR behind a Sound Devices
Mixpre that are very convincing.
I don't know how hot a line signal the PMD661 can accept without overloading.
It's always a good idea to take a couple of attenuators along for use with either
recorder.
Flintstone
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If you own the 09HR, keep it and get a pre-amp. Flintstone makes very good comparisons between the two if you didn't own either one; however since you own one, get a sound devices mixpre or a sound devices MP2 (almost the same thing) and you will have the ability to adjust gain on each channel, separately.
The 09HR, as you are aware, does not have digital in or out so if you want that functionality, look elsewhere.
Let us know what you decide!
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thank you all for your advice.
About the overload line input problem, on R09HR which is reported by some users, it would be useful if somebody had measured the "limit" of this input. This could help in choosin a preamp.
thanks
c
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Both the R-09HR and the PMD661 are good recorders.
I like the PMD661's XLR and 1/4-inch inputs, its SPDIF digital input, 48V phantom
power, and its independent gain controls for right and left channels. The R-09HR
lacks all of the above. While the R-09HR has a good preamp, the PMD661's has
lower self noise.
The R-09HR is smaller, has better battery life, and I prefer the R-09HR's external
switches that let you make quick changes to mic sensitivity, limiter, and low cut filter.
The PMD661 buries these important settings for mic recording in the software
menus.
Digifish has posted links to recordings made with the R-09HR behind a Sound Devices
Mixpre that are very convincing.
I don't know how hot a line signal the PMD661 can accept without overloading.
It's always a good idea to take a couple of attenuators along for use with either
recorder.
Flintstone
The 661 does not have 1/4 inputs. The XLR input is mechanically switched from line to mic, and in line mode, the sensitivity is 14 db lower than RCA and 1/4 unbalanced consumer line level.
I have plugged into a couple of soundboards with it, one in particular that I always considered to have a very hot output, and I was running the gain on the 661 all the way up to 2 o'clock to get good levels, so my impression is that this is the only recorder other than the 7xx series that offers a true +4db pro line level XLR input.
Another clue, when I used to run my AKGs into the MP-1 preamps to an SBM-1, I ran 28db gain on the preamps, and had the gain on the SBM at 5-6 on the dial. Now, I run the MP-1 preamps at 36db, and have the gain on the 661 cranked to 7 on the dial, so that tells you just how hot a signal the 661 can accept. I seriously doubt that any attenuators would ever be needed with the 661 line in from a SBD.
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Suggest keeping the deck and find an external preamp to work the mics in best manner.
Line input on the HR is quiet and does not overload with high voltage input from any brand of preamp you might choose, so no liability with using this deck for this purpose.
Guysonic,
That's what I've always been told.
But why NBox users ( not all of them, of course) keep saying that the R-09HR can't take a hot signal, that it will distort at lower trims, with lots of bass distortion, crunchy sound etc?
Thanks in advance ;)
Measured 09HR line maximum to be ~+28 dBu that seems quite overload resistant. Tech review with listing of HR input specs at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm#inputs (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm#inputs)
R-09 maximum is ~+16 dBu and has more chance of clipping if feed an excessively "hot" preamp output.
So for R-09 use at least a 10 dB pad with such preamps. Tech review of R-09 input is at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm#inputs (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm#inputs)
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Suggest keeping the deck and find an external preamp to work the mics in best manner.
Line input on the HR is quiet and does not overload with high voltage input from any brand of preamp you might choose, so no liability with using this deck for this purpose.
Guysonic,
That's what I've always been told.
But why NBox users ( not all of them, of course) keep saying that the R-09HR can't take a hot signal, that it will distort at lower trims, with lots of bass distortion, crunchy sound etc?
Thanks in advance ;)
Measured 09HR line maximum to be ~+28 dBu that seems quite overload resistant. Tech review with listing of HR input specs at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm#inputs (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm#inputs)
R-09 maximum is ~+16 dBu and has more chance of clipping if feed an excessively "hot" preamp output.
So for R-09 use at least a 10 dB pad with such preamps. Tech review of R-09 input is at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm#inputs (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm#inputs)
Thanks a lot. ;)
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Both the R-09HR and the PMD661 are good recorders.
I like the PMD661's XLR and 1/4-inch inputs, its SPDIF digital input, 48V phantom
power, and its independent gain controls for right and left channels. The R-09HR
lacks all of the above. While the R-09HR has a good preamp, the PMD661's has
lower self noise.
The R-09HR is smaller, has better battery life, and I prefer the R-09HR's external
switches that let you make quick changes to mic sensitivity, limiter, and low cut filter.
The PMD661 buries these important settings for mic recording in the software
menus.
Digifish has posted links to recordings made with the R-09HR behind a Sound Devices
Mixpre that are very convincing.
I don't know how hot a line signal the PMD661 can accept without overloading.
It's always a good idea to take a couple of attenuators along for use with either
recorder.
Flintstone
The 661 does not have 1/4 inputs. The XLR input is mechanically switched from line to mic, and in line mode, the sensitivity is 14 db lower than RCA and 1/4 unbalanced consumer line level.
I have plugged into a couple of soundboards with it, one in particular that I always considered to have a very hot output, and I was running the gain on the 661 all the way up to 2 o'clock to get good levels, so my impression is that this is the only recorder other than the 7xx series that offers a true +4db pro line level XLR input.
Another clue, when I used to run my AKGs into the MP-1 preamps to an SBM-1, I ran 28db gain on the preamps, and had the gain on the SBM at 5-6 on the dial. Now, I run the MP-1 preamps at 36db, and have the gain on the 661 cranked to 7 on the dial, so that tells you just how hot a signal the 661 can accept. I seriously doubt that any attenuators would ever be needed with the 661 line in from a SBD.
SO the 661 is great for hot signals, recording shows. How about for recording quiet sources? Is the fact that you are going to have to turn the gain up to 2 or 3 O'clock going to introduce more of the 661's preamp noise if say, I was putting a Sound Devices MixPre in front of the PMD661 thru XLR line in? IF so, the R09HR is better with external preamps for recording quiet sources in terms of it's ability to leave the MixPre to do the heavy lifting in terms of gain and low noise?
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Sorry, but got to do it:
Bump!
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SO the 661 is great for hot signals, recording shows. How about for recording quiet sources? Is the fact that you are going to have to turn the gain up to 2 or 3 O'clock going to introduce more of the 661's preamp noise if say, I was putting a Sound Devices MixPre in front of the PMD661 thru XLR line in? IF so, the R09HR is better with external preamps for recording quiet sources in terms of it's ability to leave the MixPre to do the heavy lifting in terms of gain and low noise?
The MixPre has a low noise floor and gives you really 'clean' gain, so I think you'll be fine feeding it to either the 661 or the R-09HR. If you're taping quieter sources, you'll want to run the MixPre if you have one but I don't think feeding it to either the 661 or the R-09HR will make much difference, although maybe I'm not understanding your question precisely.
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I guess the most simple question is this: If I want to introduce as little noise as possible, I should try to turn the gain up on the PMD661 (or R09HR) as little as possible. And if that is the case, which ever input is the most sensitive (the XLR line in on the PMD661, the 1/8 in on the PMD661, or the line in on the R09HR) is going to be 'better', because you do not have to turn up the gain on the recorder as much. To get real high levels I have to turn the gain up on the PMD661 to pretty much 50% or higer, even when the gain is up high on the MixPre.
Thanks so much!