Topic: Delay in Matrix Recording?

[Gr8ful98]

Hey y'all,
   If I want to do a matrix...mics>UA5/SBD>UA5, but the soundboard is about 50 feet from the stage, what do I do?  I'm reading that there will be a delay between the sbd recording & the mics. Is there a special device or cable I need to run in order to even this out? If there is a special device or cable, where can I get it?  How bad will the delay be?  Will is seriously affect the recording?  Should I just stick with a straight sbd recording or mic recording?
I'm really excited about doing a matrix for the first time...but I don't wanna screw up the recording. 

I'm a newbie...so please speak to me like I'm in kindergarden.  I've done a few sbd recordings, only one mic recording...this is my first attempt at a matrix & the sbd is going to be at least 30-40 feet from the stage.

Any suggestions on how to get a good matrix in this enviornment would be appreciated!

[nic]

if your mics are at the sbd, in general, the delay will be equal to 1ms per foot distance between the stacks and sbd (other factors usch as humidity come into play, but 1ms/foot is the most common).

you can usually get away with a 20ms delay without it being too noticeable...anything more and it starts to sound like crap.

there are some units you can place between the sbd feed and your ua5 to add a delay, but I honestly dont know the prices offhand. these units will generally require AC power as well...check your local sam ash/guitar world, etc...

[hexyjones]

Is there an extra monitor feed coming from the stage snake...?

Depending on the scale of operations and your access...you might be able to get a suitable feed for a matrix from the monitor mix...and then use your mics close or on-stage...

[NJFunk]

Is there an extra monitor feed coming from the stage snake...?

Depending on the scale of operations and your access...you might be able to get a suitable feed for a matrix from the monitor mix...and then use your mics close or on-stage...

This is the best answer.  Ideally, you want to run mics within 10ft of the stage if you don't have a delay unit.  If you can't get the mics that close to the stage, I've tried 3 alternatives:

1) Mix mics low.  If you mix the mics low enough, the delay sounds like natural reverb, not screwy echo.  This requires a mix of at least 85%/15% for the board mix, so if the reason that you want the matrix in the first place is that the PA mix sucks (like it's vocal heavy with little or no bass), then this is not a solution because what you'll get is the board feed with a little added warmth.  If the board feed is reasonably balanced (in the sense of all the instruments and vocals at reasonable levels, not balanced like XLR outs...), you can get a damn fine recording this way, but this ONLY works to make a good board feed sound great, not to make a shitty board feed sound good.

2) Separate tracks.  I have dealt with delay in the past by panning the board feed to one track and the mic feed to another (like board R and mic L), and then I removed the delay from the mic feed in Soundforge after I loaded the DAT onto my HD.  You can get a good recording doing this as well, but the main drawback is that the final mix will be mono, not stereo.

3) Try to separate ranges.  This is the toughest to do, and I'm not even sure you can do it with a UA-5.  What I've done in places where the PA feed is OK except that the bass isn't mic'd is to crank the bass and cut the treble on the mic feed and vice versa on the PA feed.  The idea being that if the bass is strictly from the mics and the higher ranges are strictly from the board, then there aren't any overlapping ranges where the delay is noticeable.  Of course, this requires that you have a mixer that allows you to do this.  I'm not sure if the UA-5 does that.  I've only gotten mixed results from this method of matrixing, mostly because the mix in the board feed wasn't very good to start with in the places I've tried it.


If you want to get a delay unit, the one I've seen used in the field is the TC Electronics D-2, but I'm not sure what is the ability to use this without A/C available.  They run about $500.  Good luck.

[wbrisette]

2) Separate tracks. 

Is the R4 out yet?, If so. This is your best option. Get a multi-track and don't worry as much about it in the field, fix it in post. While there are a lot of things you can't fix in post, as long as you keep everything on separate tracks, you can fix timing issues in post.

Some of the more expensive multi-track units also provide delay built-in, although those units are very pricey.

Wayne

[mmmatt]

Is there an extra monitor feed coming from the stage snake...?

Depending on the scale of operations and your access...you might be able to get a suitable feed for a matrix from the monitor mix...and then use your mics close or on-stage...

This is the best answer.  Ideally, you want to run mics within 10ft of the stage if you don't have a delay unit.  If you can't get the mics that close to the stage, I've tried 3 alternatives:

1) Mix mics low.  If you mix the mics low enough, the delay sounds like natural reverb, not screwy echo.  This requires a mix of at least 85%/15% for the board mix, so if the reason that you want the matrix in the first place is that the PA mix sucks (like it's vocal heavy with little or no bass), then this is not a solution because what you'll get is the board feed with a little added warmth.  If the board feed is reasonably balanced (in the sense of all the instruments and vocals at reasonable levels, not balanced like XLR outs...), you can get a damn fine recording this way, but this ONLY works to make a good board feed sound great, not to make a shitty board feed sound good.

2) Separate tracks.  I have dealt with delay in the past by panning the board feed to one track and the mic feed to another (like board R and mic L), and then I removed the delay from the mic feed in Soundforge after I loaded the DAT onto my HD.  You can get a good recording doing this as well, but the main drawback is that the final mix will be mono, not stereo.

3) Try to separate ranges.  This is the toughest to do, and I'm not even sure you can do it with a UA-5.  What I've done in places where the PA feed is OK except that the bass isn't mic'd is to crank the bass and cut the treble on the mic feed and vice versa on the PA feed.  The idea being that if the bass is strictly from the mics and the higher ranges are strictly from the board, then there aren't any overlapping ranges where the delay is noticeable.  Of course, this requires that you have a mixer that allows you to do this.  I'm not sure if the UA-5 does that.  I've only gotten mixed results from this method of matrixing, mostly because the mix in the board feed wasn't very good to start with in the places I've tried it.


If you want to get a delay unit, the one I've seen used in the field is the TC Electronics D-2, but I'm not sure what is the ability to use this without A/C available.  They run about $500.  Good luck.

This is solid advice.  If you want to hear what a 45' differance can sound like listen to the last song of the first set on this recording. http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=21744   Also read my technical notes in the txt file.  As our funky friend stated, too much sucks, and it wount help a shitty board feed, but just a little on a decent board feed sounds great.  I say listen to the last track because I actually played with the level during the house music after the last song and, you can hear how a lot vs a little sounds.  Make sure you run the bass rolloff on your mics if you have it.  Even a little bit of reverb makes bass lines mush.  You can always bring the bass up in post, and then you are boosting only the sbd feed bass which is what you want.
     your best bet is to get permission from the sound engineer to allow you to use his snakes to get on the stage.  I usually run stage corners facing the audience and that should be pretty easy to mix with a ua5.  Alternately you can do a config center stage but that takes a little bit more monitoring and with the headphone outs on the ua-5 you would be lucky to get it right.  If it is a small room, and it sounds like a pretty big venue, your best bet is the sweet spot, but a larger room you should be fine on stage. 

Matt

[NJFunk]

I found a delay unit called the Nanoverb by Alesis on sale at Guitar Center for $100. 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=41/g=live/s=signalproc/search/detail/base_pid/182508/

Big plus is price (other delay units are $500 +).  Main drawbacks is that it runs on AC, so I'll need to either have access to a plug or get a DC > AC converter to use it with an external battery (or get it modded for DC, but I'm not an electirician myself - anyone willing?).  Another minor drawback is that the delay effect only gives you 10ms precision, but if you can get the feeds within 10ms, that should be completely inaudible.  I'll post a report after I have a chance to use it.

[mmmatt]

that looks like a mono unit

[hexyjones]

I found a delay unit called the Nanoverb by Alesis on sale at Guitar Center for $100. 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=41/g=live/s=signalproc/search/detail/base_pid/182508/

Big plus is price (other delay units are $500 +).  Main drawbacks is that it runs on AC, so I'll need to either have access to a plug or get a DC > AC converter to use it with an external battery (or get it modded for DC, but I'm not an electirician myself - anyone willing?).  Another minor drawback is that the delay effect only gives you 10ms precision, but if you can get the feeds within 10ms, that should be completely inaudible.  I'll post a report after I have a chance to use it.

Dude - you're fighting an uphill battle here  - what your attempting is highly ill advised...

Face it - you just cant matix in certain situations...forcing it will only screw things up further...

Consider buying yourself a 100 ft 4 channel snake...a lot less hassle - and you would be closer to doing it right...

[NJFunk]

that looks like a mono unit

No, it's stereo.  It's got 1/4" L & R ins and outs.

[NJFunk]

Dude - you're fighting an uphill battle here  - what your attempting is highly ill advised...

Ill advised?  Why?  The only major hurdle is the AC, but anywhere where I can find power, I don't see a problem.

[hexyjones]

How are you planning on setting the delay time...?

Also - how does the delay work...electronically...?

Is the singal subjected to A/D conversion within the device...?

Is the delayed signal as high a quality as the original...?

Seems like most delay units are made to be used as effects and not time alingment devices...

[hexyjones]

Way more than you need - a smaller snake will be cheaper...

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=3486&Category=Snakes

[Tim]

isn't a snake awfully invasive?

I know when I was running FOH if some taper showed up when the doors opened with a 100foot snake to run a matrix I would have laughed him out of the building.

the snake might work if you are allowed in for soundcheck and are on good terms with the band, crew, and club but otherwise I would just get a delay unit (I've used those Alesis and they sound fine) and ask for AC power.

also, a snake is a lot heavier and bulkier to deal with than a delay unit and an AC pwoer cord

[hexyjones]

well sure - it depends on the situation...sure Im not going to show up at a big venue/show hoping I can set this thing up...

But for some of the college scene bands I tape - no problem...

Ideally -  you would just use the band/clubs stage snake...there are likely some extra channels...set your stuff up back at the board...get the two channels from the snake - and go! That's where I would start - before I start using a delay unit...

And a smaller 4 channel snake wouldn't be THAT big or heavy...