Author Topic: Stealth Recordings in Europe, need a mic and have no clue (Read 10215 times)

gauloisesblondes123 · « **on:** October 27, 2011, 03:51:50 PM »

Hi Everyone,

I´d love to start recording live shows and want to buy the gear. I think I´ll get the Edirol R 09 HR but I´m a bit lost about the microphone. It´s gonna be a hidden one, that´s for sure. The problem is, that I live in Germany and all the tipps from other tapers I read are from the states and I can´t seem to find the Mics people recommend at the european market. (E.G. CA-14, SP-CMC´s or OKMs)
Do I have to have a look for "lavalier-microphones"? Does anyone know? But then again, when I look at those they don´t seem to have a corresponding plug for the Recorder. Unfortunately I live in a City with ONE music-store and they seem to have even less knowledge about this stuff than me, so I´m dependent on information from oneline-shops and don´t find my way around.

Maybe there´s a European (or even german) taper on the boards, who can point me into the right direction, give a few tipps and/or is willing to answer some more of my questions,

thanks a lot in advance,
greets Kris

p.s. I wanted to start recording my next show an nov 14th, otherwise I´d go for ordering something in the states. But there shipping is about 3 weeks, so I thought I´d ask here first

acidjack · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2011, 07:08:07 PM »

In Europe, just for speed of shipping alone, I'd consider the OKM-II series. Those mics sound great and are made in Europe, so you'll avoid some duties, etc.

I see lots of European guys with OKM-IIRs and haven't heard many bad pulls with those. I think "Microphone Madness" is also in Europe or the UK and has "Sennheiser-driven" mics that are quite good (MM-HLSC-1 I believe, but I don't own those).

Americans will always say Church or Sound Professionals. Both are good choices, but if you have a show on the 14th, there is no chance you'll get Church mics, or probably Sound Pros mics, in time, and you'll be paying shipping duties.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2011, 10:53:16 PM »

acidjack gave a couple of good suggestions for microphone sources. I also thought Microphone Madness was in Europe but a check on their website has them based in Florida. Who knows, maybe they have an office/warehouse overseas as well? Get in touch and see what they say. If time is of the essence, the OKM-II series is probably your best bet and Soundman is in Germany > http://www.soundman.de/

TimSmith · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2011, 01:15:55 AM »

I live in Moscow and I've got CA-14. They are great. IMHO you can't go wrong with CA-14.
If international shipping is ok for you, I'd buy CA-14 or maybe CAFS - they are super-small.

Ziggz · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2011, 01:33:32 AM »

Soundman's site seems to be down (for me anyway) at the moment. They also sell on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/sch/soundman_ek/m.html

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2011, 02:05:53 AM »

Thanks everybody for the advice!
I wasn´t just asking for the brand, but also for the TYPE of mic I need.
Those tiny ones are like these, right?
http://www.thomann.de/de/lavalier-mikrofone.html

(hope the link works - its all german language though)

cuz if I understand correctly those are mics for speakers or fitnesstrainers and stuff like this. Will those be sufficient for a rock-concert?!
Depends I guess, huh?
But then again most of them do have different plugs. The Recorder has a "klinke" plug and the mics have XLR or L-plugs. So I thought they might not work with the recorder anyways.

swordfish · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2011, 08:05:52 AM »

PM sent in German

TimeBandit · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2011, 08:56:01 AM »

get a Church Audio ugly preamp + ca14 mics - really one of the best for 007'ing.
or maybe some CAFS which are really tiny.
ordering is no problem. bought my church audio stuff in the yard sale here or on ebay so importing to eu is the minor problem.
also microphone madness and soundpro's shipping to europe, but i'm most satisfied with the church gear.

if you want to buy new sets contact Chris church here on his sale thread, do not use the ebay store (because here are the special offers and much cheaper.)

acidjack · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2011, 11:05:27 AM »

The PM in German is probably more useful, but the general need is for a stereo pair of omnidirectional or cardiod lavalier-type mics with high sound pressure level (SPL) handling. Over 125db SPL should be the minimum.

It's somewhat easier to just shop for brands that already sell the mics as stereo pairs (Church Audio, Soundman, Sound Professionals, etc.) Most people don't use these kinds of mics for recording music like we do (they are used for instrument miking sometimes, like the DPA 4060s) so they aren't generally sold as stereo pairs.

Quote from: gauloisesblondes123 on October 28, 2011, 02:05:53 AM

Thanks everybody for the advice!
I wasn´t just asking for the brand, but also for the TYPE of mic I need.
Those tiny ones are like these, right?
http://www.thomann.de/de/lavalier-mikrofone.html

(hope the link works - its all german language though)

cuz if I understand correctly those are mics for speakers or fitnesstrainers and stuff like this. Will those be sufficient for a rock-concert?!
Depends I guess, huh?
But then again most of them do have different plugs. The Recorder has a "klinke" plug and the mics have XLR or L-plugs. So I thought they might not work with the recorder anyways.

weroflu · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2011, 06:44:10 AM »

anyone know what capsules are in the okm II?

pillowman · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2011, 06:50:18 AM »

Quote from: weroflu on October 29, 2011, 06:44:10 AM

anyone know what capsules are in the okm II?

today - some sennheiser
in the past - some beyerdynamic

Popmarter · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2011, 08:02:50 AM »

For long time I had very good results on both loud (rock) and soft music with the OKM II Rock Studio (OKMII RS).

http://www.thomann.de/gb/soundman_okm_ii_rockstudio_a3.htm

Stick them in your ears (hat or anywhere) and off you go. They will result in good, stable recordings with a unique OKM sound. Difference between the Rock version and the Rock Studio versions is the amount of hiss (groundnoise?) when recording a higher levels (as you do with softer music). The Rocks have more hiss than the Rock Studio's. Don't let money make the difference here.

OKM's are good for starters as they are small, easy and work good in all environments. Excellent for stealthing. When you have some more expirience you might go a step higher. However I know some who stick to this type as the results are good to excellent each time. You will find recordings on Dimeadozen.org (search: "OKMII")

The Edirol will do, Sony M10 could well do, aswell as small Tascams. They are small and probably fit your budget.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2011, 05:21:45 PM »

Quote from: Ziggz on October 28, 2011, 01:33:32 AM

Soundman's site seems to be down (for me anyway) at the moment. They also sell on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/sch/soundman_ek/m.html

Everything else being somewhat equal, the prices they have for Soundman mics on eBay are a bit pricey. If you have the time for shipping, you might want to consider the Church Audio and Sound Professionals gear. Even with the duties and taxes those might be less expensive.

If you know somebody with electronics knowledge and is handy with a soldering iron, you might want to consider a pair of those DPA 4061's listed on the Thomann site and getting them terminated into a single 1/8" (3.5mm) stereo plug. They are excellent microphones that can be powered by a 9v battery box.

Napo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2011, 04:02:56 AM »

How about the DSM http://www.sonicstudios.com/dsm.htm ? Bernard is based in US though.

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2011, 06:01:36 AM »

Hi everybody,
thanks again for the advice. I browsed through a few tapings I downloaded and found out, that I kinda liked the sound from Sony-ECM 719s and even preferred it over the OKMs (Pop and Rock) recordings. Of course I know, that this is also dependent on other settings, location from the taper etc. A nice helpful user here told me that Sony´s aren´t to bad for that price and I thought I will try them out. I don´t even know, if I will like my new hobby or if I´d end up wasting hundreds of euros for a mic... I can still update to a better mic afterwards (x-mas coming soon, right? ;-))
The stuff should arrive mid-week, I might bug you all with a few more questions afterwards. I have some friends who play in a rock/punk band. I will tape their rehearsals before I will try and tape my first "test-concert"

thanks again,
greets,
Kris

Humbug · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2011, 09:00:26 AM »

Blimey are those still available? I don't think they're that bad, they replaced the ECM717's, which I have heard reasonable recordings with.

Let us know how you get on.

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2011, 12:49:43 PM »

Quote from: Humbug on October 30, 2011, 09:00:26 AM

Let us know how you get on.

...definitely will do. I´m curious myself

fandelive · « **Reply #17 on:** October 31, 2011, 10:22:39 AM »

Quote from: gauloisesblondes123 on October 30, 2011, 06:01:36 AM

I browsed through a few tapings I downloaded and found out, that I kinda liked the sound from Sony-ECM 719s and even preferred it over the OKMs (Pop and Rock) recordings.

I'd be curious to listen to those samples if you can provide some links...
ECM-719 will give you nice results for open taping intimate acoustic gigs at some record shops.
If this mics fits your price range, better get a pair of CA-14 cardioids as they will give you way better results + they are easier to hide and to mount (don't think about getting good results with an ECM-719 clipped to the pocket of your shirt) !

Quote from: acidjack on October 28, 2011, 11:05:27 AM

The general need is for a stereo pair of omnidirectional or cardiod lavalier-type mics with high sound pressure level (SPL) handling. Over 125db SPL should be the minimum.

The MM-HLSC-1 are said to handle over 138dB SPL without a battery box, but that's not true. They need to be modded (4.7k) to record loud shows.
If you're ordering from Soundprofessionals, ask for "low-sens" mod.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #18 on:** October 31, 2011, 10:27:40 AM »

Quote from: fandelive on October 31, 2011, 10:22:39 AM

Quote from: gauloisesblondes123 on October 30, 2011, 06:01:36 AM
I browsed through a few tapings I downloaded and found out, that I kinda liked the sound from Sony-ECM 719s and even preferred it over the OKMs (Pop and Rock) recordings.

I'd be curious to listen to those samples if you can provide some links...
ECM-719 will give you nice results for open taping intimate acoustic gigs at some record shops.
If this mics fits your price range, better get a pair of CA-14 cardioids as they will give you way better results + they are easier to hide and to mount (don't think about getting good results with an ECM-719 clipped to the pocket of your shirt) !

Quote from: acidjack on October 28, 2011, 11:05:27 AM
The general need is for a stereo pair of omnidirectional or cardiod lavalier-type mics with high sound pressure level (SPL) handling. Over 125db SPL should be the minimum.

The MM-HLSC-1 are said to handle over 138dB SPL without a battery box, but that's not true. They need to be modded (4.7k) to record loud shows.
If you're ordering from Soundprofessionals, ask for "low-sens" mod.

You mean my mod LOL Right?

fandelive · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2011, 02:59:54 PM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on October 31, 2011, 10:27:40 AM

Quote from: fandelive on October 31, 2011, 10:22:39 AM
The MM-HLSC-1 are said to handle over 138dB SPL without a battery box, but that's not true. They need to be modded (4.7k) to record loud shows.

You mean my mod LOL Right?

That's what I mean. I should have credited you

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2011, 04:00:27 PM »

Quote from: fandelive on October 31, 2011, 10:22:39 AM

Quote from: gauloisesblondes123 on October 30, 2011, 06:01:36 AM
I browsed through a few tapings I downloaded and found out, that I kinda liked the sound from Sony-ECM 719s and even preferred it over the OKMs (Pop and Rock) recordings.

I'd be curious to listen to those samples if you can provide some links...
ECM-719 will give you nice results for open taping intimate acoustic gigs at some record shops.
If this mics fits your price range, better get a pair of CA-14 cardioids as they will give you way better results + they are easier to hide and to mount (don't think about getting good results with an ECM-719 clipped to the pocket of your shirt) !

I downloded the shows from dime a while ago and they won´t be available online anymore I guess. I have them on my personal harddrive though and if you want me to, I can upload them via yousendit or something - at least a few tracks from each show. Let me know and I will do so over the weekend.

As I said (or at least tried to say), I only compared those two different mics, as I was going to decide between those two. I thought the Sony sounded decent and that I would be glad, if my tapings would turn out like this... Of course I know, that there are better mics and quality around...

fandelive · « **Reply #21 on:** November 03, 2011, 12:23:38 PM »

No need for you to work on uploading some files if they are not already online. Thank you

As for the ECM-719 : you are a newbie and I'd say it is a good starter mic.
I started myself with an ECM-717 (older version of the 719) which I still have, but I'm not using it anymore. It gave me great results for intimate acoustic gigs when I got band permission to tape and stood first row.
I then tried club shows and even a stadium concert (almost rock acts) and decided, considering the results, to replace the mic.

If you do not want to order from an overseas company, you basically have no choice anyway.
Maybe you can find some european taper trying to sell some (second hand) mics here on TapersSection's Yard Sale.

Your ears have to be pleased with the results, that's the most important thing.

Keep us informed ! Good luck !

guysonic · « **Reply #22 on:** November 03, 2011, 04:22:26 PM »

Suggest a top quality two peice outfit of headworn stereo-surround mic + PCM-M10 flash deck as discussed in tye retail section of the newsgroup at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0;all

fandelive · « **Reply #23 on:** November 04, 2011, 11:56:46 AM »

Quote from: acidjack on October 27, 2011, 07:08:07 PM

Americans will always say Church or Sound Professionals. Both are good choices, but if you have a show on the 14th, there is no chance you'll get Church mics, or probably Sound Pros mics, in time, and you'll be paying shipping duties.

Ordered from SoundProfessionals and had to pay shipping duties.
Ordered form Giant Squid Audio Labs, Microphone Madness and Church Audio and paid no shipping duties.

I'm from France.

acidjack · « **Reply #24 on:** November 04, 2011, 12:31:25 PM »

Quote from: fandelive on November 04, 2011, 11:56:46 AM

Quote from: acidjack on October 27, 2011, 07:08:07 PM
Americans will always say Church or Sound Professionals. Both are good choices, but if you have a show on the 14th, there is no chance you'll get Church mics, or probably Sound Pros mics, in time, and you'll be paying shipping duties.

Ordered from SoundProfessionals and had to pay shipping duties.
Ordered form Giant Squid Audio Labs, Microphone Madness and Church Audio and paid no shipping duties.

I'm from France.

Good to know. My comment still stands re: the timing of an order originally targeted for the 14th Nov. in Europe.

TimeBandit · « **Reply #25 on:** November 06, 2011, 03:32:56 AM »

Maybe you have to wait a bit longer especially when Chris has much orders on hold...

Shipping from UsA / Canada to Germany in my case needed between 1 or 2 weeks ... took only once 4 weeks because parcel was stuck in Fraport because of customs check.

aaronji · « **Reply #26 on:** November 06, 2011, 12:20:18 PM »

I've also had very quick shipments to Europe from Sound Professionals and Microphone Madness, usually a week to ten days. Customs might tack on a few days occasionally...

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 20, 2011, 11:27:00 AM »

Hi Folks,

so here are some words about my first taping experiences.

For the first show on last Monday I didn´t even get the gear into the venue (yeah, I´m a Sissy and got scared in front of the doors, when I saw how closely they pat down the visitors... ;-))
Well, anyways, Yesterday I was at an Arena Show and everything went smoothly. I had a balcony seat but not very far away from the stage. As a result in a funny angle to the speakers though, but still I´m very satisfied with the recording as I heard so far. I´m sure there could be better ones around, but considering this was my first taping ever, I´m pretty glad about it. Thanks to you guys who gave me tipps and feedback about some do´s and don´ts.

Sooner or later I´ll definitely update to some "smaller/better to hide" Mics, though...

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #28 on:** November 20, 2011, 03:39:55 PM »

^^ So what gear did you wind up buying, gauloises? Looking forward to hearing your recording when you post it.

On a related note, Chris Church has an incredible deal going on right now that's good until November 28th. Definitely worth checking out.

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 22, 2011, 03:23:30 PM »

Quote from: Fried Chicken Boy on November 20, 2011, 03:39:55 PM

^^ So what gear did you wind up buying, gauloises? Looking forward to hearing your recording when you post it.

I´m proud owner of an Edirol R 09 HR with a Sony ECM 719 Microfone :-)

Do people post their recordings or samples of it here as well? I didn´t stumble upon a section for that so far, but I´d definitely be curious to hear some thoughts from people who know their stuff (know more than me anyways to begin with... ;-))
For know I won´t be able to upload anything anywhere though, since I still have one single track and can´t edit it yet. I used to have Wavelab, but my old version isn´t working with my new PC anymore and I still need an alternative program.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #30 on:** November 22, 2011, 05:02:09 PM »

Quote from: gauloisesblondes123 on November 22, 2011, 03:23:30 PM

Quote from: Fried Chicken Boy on November 20, 2011, 03:39:55 PM
^^ So what gear did you wind up buying, gauloises? Looking forward to hearing your recording when you post it.

I´m proud owner of an Edirol R 09 HR with a Sony ECM 719 Microfone :-)

Do people post their recordings or samples of it here as well? I didn´t stumble upon a section for that so far, but I´d definitely be curious to hear some thoughts from people who know their stuff (know more than me anyways to begin with... ;-))
For know I won´t be able to upload anything anywhere though, since I still have one single track and can´t edit it yet. I used to have Wavelab, but my old version isn´t working with my new PC anymore and I still need an alternative program.

There's a section called "Kickdown Central" where tapers post announcements and links to their recordings and there are some great pulls to be heard. Depending on who you recorded and what their view is on taping, there are several different places where you can make your recording available: Live Music Archive, etree, Dime A Dozen, The Trader's Den, etc. If none of those options appeal to you or fit the bill, some folks upload their recordings to Mediafire, Rapidshare, Megaupload or any number of file hosting services on the web in order to share their pulls.

If you need an editing program, I (and I'm sure many others) can recommend Audacity. It's cross-platform, a lot of people get great results with it and it's FREE. Also free, I'd recommend adding Trader's Little Helper to your program list, too. The Swiss-Army tool for tapers, it can check files for SBE's, create checksum files, create torrent files and convert playback files to several formats, among other things.

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 23, 2011, 01:29:10 AM »

Yeah, thank you, I will check out the programs you mentioned. Although I´d prefer to get my old one running again (Wavelab)

I know Dime, Traders Den, Etree etc. I just thought I´d let some people hear it first and tell me wether it´s an ok taping or totally crap before I upload it somewhere there... :-) I think as soon as I have some splitted tracks I´ll use some megaupload-link and post them here somewhere...

gauloisesblondes123 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 23, 2011, 04:40:44 PM »

ok, this is not quite how I planned it to be, but here are the first few tracks from the show I taped:
Incubus - Cologne 2011-11-19

Track 1 - Megalomaniac
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NPBDE15Z

Track 2 - Pardon Me
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YH0ZUBVQ

Track 4 - Promises, Promises
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AYZD4H9E

I had some troubles with splitting the file into different tracks and my programm crashed after first 4 songs always... The track endings a pretty roughly and not how I´ll finally place them...

I was gonna ask some questions about songs being played later but now you probably can just give me a first feedback?

The level from left and right channel are quite different (bare with me, in case I don´t use correct terms here)... Is this normal

I recorded in 24bit and 44 kHz but the program saved the files in 16 and 44.1 (wasn´t aware of that) Apart from that I didn´t do anything to the files (yet) (Have no idea what I´m supposed to do or can do anyways... ;-))

Ok, let me know what you think and thanks in advance

oh yeah, let me stress, that this was my first taping ever... so be kind while honest ;-)

Sebastian · « **Reply #33 on:** December 27, 2011, 02:44:47 PM »

Hey there,

congratulations on your first recording. I think it sounds quite good considering it's the first time you've ever stealth taped a concert. My first few recordings did not come out that good when I started in 1998.

Your problem with the left and right channels having different levels probably comes from mic placement and/or your location in the venue. Since this is a stealth recording, this should probably be discussed in PMs. Feel free to contact me (I'm from Germany, too) if you need any help with fixing this.

For track splitting, consider using CD Wave Editor. IMHO, it's the best program for splitting tracks - and you can download it for free.

Anyway, feel free to PM me with further questions concerning taping shows in Germany.

capnhook · « **Reply #34 on:** December 27, 2011, 06:32:50 PM »

CD Wave Editor....you will like it enough, and use it enough, to send cash to get a registered copy.