Topic: Choice of microphones

[Jeffbeckfan1]

First of all let me briefly introduce myself. For a while my plan has been to start recording concerts, however I did not have a clue what gear to use to get good enough recordings, only it needed to be stealth recordings most of the time.  Being a member of Dime I tried to get a picture of what gear was mostly used. Last Friday I found Taperssection and was able to find lots of knowledge and good advice by reading posts. As always when entering a "new world" I am amazed by how much there is to understand and learn and how much knowledge people accumulate when they do what they love to do.

So based on what I learned at Taperssection over the weekend, I today emailed Church Audio to place an order for his supersale offer CA14 cards/omnis and a CA-9100 plus a cable to the deck. I am also buying a Sony PCM-M10. I believe this will be a great stealt rig to grow with while I learn the trade.

So, over to my questions, probably the first one's in a never ending row......

When, and if, there is time to move on from the CA-14's it seems like DPA-4061 and AT853 are at the next level and favored by many of you. I would appreciate if owners of these mic's would describe what differences there are between CA-14, DPA-4061 and AT853 in terms of size, sound quality, tonality, ease of use etc.

Also it seems like most tapers prefer omnis compared with cards. I am buying both and plan to use omis when I'm close to the PA and cards when further away. Is this a correct strategy or is it overkill? I try to get seats in the first 10 rows if possible.

Thank you!

[page]

Also it seems like most stealth tapers prefer omnis compared with cards. I am buying both and plan to use omis when I'm close to the PA and cards when further away. Is this a correct strategy or is it overkill? I try to get seats in the first 10 rows if possible.

fyp

If you don't have to conceal your gear, then most folks I know reserve the omnis for outdoor work. If you do have to hide your stuff, then having mics that are very small, and sound good sort of reduces your options (to a bunch of omnis and a couple of cardioid mics, especially in the sub $500 range).

But yes, the gist of your post is correct for stealthing (and you've selected nice gear for the purpose); use omnis when close to the PA and doing stack taping, run cardioids when further back or trying to create a better stereo image. The best 2 pieces of advice I can give without more info is; to learn about how sound propagates and reflects (e.g. where does it sound like ass in a venue and how to figure out the sweet spot). Second, experiment with getting your gear in at places that are not near where you live (so when you get caught, you won't be going there again and won't feel bad about not going there) and once you get the hang of that, try recording bands you're not terribly interested in down at the local bar/club/theater so you get a better idea of how things work.

Ironically, given the latter, I'd find a band that allows taping and go there first with your stuff, that way you're not trying to learn how to get gear in *and* make a recording simultaneously. Plus, there is likely to be another taper there who can answer questions in the field.

Oh, and read lots, especially the stickies in each forum section. Best of luck and welcome aboard.

[Cheesecadet]

I would rate the sound of the mics you liisted in this order from best sounding to worst.  Keep in mind none of these sound bad at all, I have heard very fine recordings made with all of them.  I personally own the DPAs and ATs...and the older CA-11s.  That being said I have listened to many shows made with the CA-14's.  They are good mics for the pricepoint, but IMO still don't match up to the others.  Some people think the CA-14s sound as good as the AT853s.

I think the DPAs are in a different league...and they are by far the smallest as well.

1.) DPA4061
2.) AT853
3. CA14

Just my .02

[adrianf74]

I would rate the sound of the mics you liisted in this order from best sounding to worst.  Keep in mind none of these sound bad at all, I have heard very fine recordings made with all of them.  I personally own the DPAs and ATs...and the older CA-11s.  That being said I have listened to many shows made with the CA-14's.  They are good mics for the pricepoint, but IMO still don't match up to the others.  Some people think the CA-14s sound as good as the AT853s.

I think the DPAs are in a different league...and they are by far the smallest as well.

1.) DPA4061
2.) AT853
3. CA14

Just my .02

I'd say the AT853 <> CA-14 depending on the room.  I've heard good pulls with both (and have done many good pulls with the CA-14 omnis).  I also had the CAFS which are "Freakin' Small" (hence the name) but ultimately went with the 4061's because I wanted one *really good* pair of omni mics in my bag instead of having to use two different ones (the DPA's are better sounding than the CA-14's - I'm hoping to do a true A/B in early December if Chris gets my order to me in time).

[acidjack]

853s vs. CA-14 it's a tossup on sound. 

Beyond the sound issue:

Advantages of CA-14
Price
Work properly for loud shows from day one; automatically have the "4.7k mod" that allows for high SPL recording.

Advantages of AT853
Multiple caps (card, hyper, subcard, omni)
Easier to acquire (made in a factory vs. handmade); similarly easier to service for that reason
Don't have built-on windscreens so can be slightly lower profile depending on how they're set up
More accessories made for them (again, because they're made by a huge company)

The 853s for recording loud shows MUST have the "low sensitivity" mod from Sound Professionals, which is the same thing as the "4.7k mod" popularized/created by Chris Church.

If I already owned CA-14s I wouldn't bother upgrading to 853s, and vice versa.  The next jump up is an AKG solution with the ck9x caps, which as of today's date is a bit tougher to implement.  After that in price, you've got the DPA 4061s, and then stuff that gets way more expensive and complicated after that.

I'd save my $$ and move straight to DPA 406x, DPA 402x or Schoeps MKx>CMR>tinybox if I was that into taping.  It seems to be where a lot of folks end up (stealth tapers, anyway).

[Scooter123]

JeffBeckFan

I was on The Dime with Church and AT Mikes for about 18 months and LISTENED to concerts and wrote down and saved the gigs I really really liked from a sound perspective.  After 18 months, I had a list of 100 shows I then went back and ranked them.  My favorite mikes, head and shoulders, were Schoeps mk4 and Neumann km150s on a consistent basis.  Did I like the sounds of other shows?  Sure.  I even had a couple Zoom Internal shows I liked, but a whole bunch of Zooms that were crap. 

But day in day out on a consistent basis those Schoeps and Neumanns stood out every time--I found very few clunkers with those two mikes.   

So I saved my pennies and sprung for the Schoeps.  The reason was their small footprint for stealth, which is what I do. 

I can't bring in a 10 foot pole to an arena.  I get thrown out, before Security laughed their ass off. 

[Jeffbeckfan1]

JeffBeckFan

I was on The Dime with Church and AT Mikes for about 18 months and LISTENED to concerts and wrote down and saved the gigs I really really liked from a sound perspective.  After 18 months, I had a list of 100 shows I then went back and ranked them.  My favorite mikes, head and shoulders, were Schoeps mk4 and Neumann km150s on a consistent basis.  Did I like the sounds of other shows?  Sure.  I even had a couple Zoom Internal shows I liked, but a whole bunch of Zooms that were crap. 

But day in day out on a consistent basis those Schoeps and Neumanns stood out every time--I found very few clunkers with those two mikes.   

So I saved my pennies and sprung for the Schoeps.  The reason was their small footprint for stealth, which is what I do. 

I can't bring in a 10 foot pole to an arena.  I get thrown out, before Security laughed their ass off.

Hi Scooter123 and thanks for your advice!

With regards to Dime I've basicly done what you did, and yes the MK4's and KM150's stands out from the crowd. If stealth taping works for me a pair of MK4's is probably where I will end up. However I need to learn more in order to utilize the MK4's to their full potential. But they are a working part of a long term strategy.

[Belexes]

I have both the CA-14's and 853's.  There is not a lot of appreciable difference in sound between the two.  I have run comps on them. The reason I have them both is for versatility.  I can change the capsule configurations on the fly with the 853's and I can't do that with the CA-14's.  The windscreens can come off on the 853's, not so on the CA-14's.  The CA-14's were cheaper though and didn't need a modification to them to not distort at loud shows.

I agree that running stealth your next best step up would be the Schoeps or Neumanns.

The DPA4061s are great omni mics. I owned a beat-to-hell broadway pair.  I might move back to them at some point in time as looking at my sig file, I own far too many omnis than I should given I use cards about 70% of the time for my taping needs.

[Jeffbeckfan1]

I have both the CA-14's and 853's.  There is not a lot of appreciable difference in sound between the two.  I have run comps on them. The reason I have them both is for versatility.  I can change the capsule configurations on the fly with the 853's and I can't do that with the CA-14's.  The windscreens can come off on the 853's, not so on the CA-14's.  The CA-14's were cheaper though and didn't need a modification to them to not distort at loud shows.

I agree that running stealth your next best step up would be the Schoeps or Neumanns.

The DPA4061s are great omni mics. I owned a beat-to-hell broadway pair.  I might move back to them at some point in time as looking at my sig file, I own far too many omnis than I should given I use cards about 70% of the time for my taping needs.

Many thanks Belexes,

I noticed the versatility with interchangeable capsules and if there had been anyone selling a used pair of AT853's with additional capsules I might have gone that direction. However the CA-14 and CA-9100 felt like a really nice plug and play solution! I'll be looking for a used pair of DPA-4061's as they seem an ideal step between the CA-14's and the ultimate Schoeps MK's.

Was not aware the windscreens are fixed on the CA-14's, that's a drawback as I will tape indoors nearly always. (Seen too much rain on outdoor concerts).

[Myco]

Another choice for omni's in the mid-price point range that sound AMAZING , but are a little more rarer are the Nevaton MCE-400's. You can talk to TNJazz about them because he has connections to a distributor. They are easily better than most of the mic's you've listed, but only come with fixed omni capsules.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Unfortunately, the screaming drunks I have experienced at jeff beck shows sound the same on any mic.

[Myco]

Unfortunately, the screaming drunks I have experienced at jeff beck shows sound the same on any mic.

Truth!

[Belexes]

Was not aware the windscreens are fixed on the CA-14's, that's a drawback as I will tape indoors nearly always. (Seen too much rain on outdoor concerts).

Windscreens protect your capules from damage and you never know if you will be near an HVAC vent or fan in a venue that will be blowing on you.  Windscreens indoors can sometimes save the day!  You will see in rig photos here than many people open tape with windscreens on indoors.

[Jeffbeckfan1]

Unfortunately, the screaming drunks I have experienced at jeff beck shows sound the same on any mic.

Not to be impolite or anything, but it seem like US crowds are louder than European crowds in general. If we're not off to see a soccer match, that is.

[Jeffbeckfan1]

Also it seems like most stealth tapers prefer omnis compared with cards. I am buying both and plan to use omis when I'm close to the PA and cards when further away. Is this a correct strategy or is it overkill? I try to get seats in the first 10 rows if possible.

fyp

If you don't have to conceal your gear, then most folks I know reserve the omnis for outdoor work. If you do have to hide your stuff, then having mics that are very small, and sound good sort of reduces your options (to a bunch of omnis and a couple of cardioid mics, especially in the sub $500 range).

But yes, the gist of your post is correct for stealthing (and you've selected nice gear for the purpose); use omnis when close to the PA and doing stack taping, run cardioids when further back or trying to create a better stereo image. The best 2 pieces of advice I can give without more info is; to learn about how sound propagates and reflects (e.g. where does it sound like ass in a venue and how to figure out the sweet spot). Second, experiment with getting your gear in at places that are not near where you live (so when you get caught, you won't be going there again and won't feel bad about not going there) and once you get the hang of that, try recording bands you're not terribly interested in down at the local bar/club/theater so you get a better idea of how things work.

Ironically, given the latter, I'd find a band that allows taping and go there first with your stuff, that way you're not trying to learn how to get gear in *and* make a recording simultaneously. Plus, there is likely to be another taper there who can answer questions in the field.

Oh, and read lots, especially the stickies in each forum section. Best of luck and welcome aboard.

Page,

Thanks for great advice - appreciated. I will follow it. Believe there are a few jazz clubs in the vincinity where I can learn using my gear. I have been bringing my DSLR with a telephoto lens to quite a few concerts, but for some reason I feel it would be worse getting caught with taping equipment so some training is needed.