Topic: Mic Setup...Mounting Bars vs. Free Style

[Gutbucket]

That's it.  I think you are the one who posed a link to that video originally.  Thanks.

It would be really informative if they would make a video with that thing switching through a bunch of angle/spacing combinations which provide the same SRA.  I'd really like to listen to that.

[JimmieC]

awesome.  I like this thread and the posted video.

[stevetoney]

That's it.  I think you are the one who posed a link to that video originally.  Thanks.

It would be really informative if they would make a video with that thing switching through a bunch of angle/spacing combinations which provide the same SRA.  I'd really like to listen to that.

...and then the comp cops could crap all over the methodology used.  Hehehe

[page]

In the past I thought about designing an articulating bar, with sliding mounts which rotate as they are extended in the appropriate relationship to automatically retain the same SRA across the entire adjustment range - eliminating the need for refering to the table, measuring, and all of that.  I'm sure it would be possible but probably overly costly to produce given the machining and moving parts required.  Never got around to working out the mechanism for it in CAD or on a cocktail napkin.

This, its the only reason I want a 3D printer... ive got some sketches ive worked on for an adjustable bar, just need the prototype put in a CAD.


Yall are lucky im traveling on a tablet; in short, i use a given SRA that I like as a basis and adjust my angle/spacing to match.

[F.O.Bean]

I'm not sure I understand either the question or the response, but just to try to clarify what I think I'm reading, the Stereo Zoom concept is about stereo imaging produced by two directional microphones.  In that respect, it's all about what we're trying to achieve at the point of capture in mic'ing up a room, and most rooms have PA speakers on the stage of a venue...it's about reproduction the sound imaging experienced in the room as closely as possible by those two microphones.  (For example, if you're facing the stage and straight ahead is considered 12 noon, if the drums are physically located on stage at 10 oclock, you'd ideally like them to sound like they're at 10 oclock on your recording...but if you don't use the correct SRA and spacing, they might sound in the recording as if they were located at 9 oclock or 11 oclock.)

Sorry Steve, disagreeing with you alot here, but the value to me with the SZ info isn't about reproducing a particular stereo image, but rather understanding generally how your recording ange and capsule spacing relate to the stereo image reproduced.

I actually don't lean towards the archivist stance, and instead want to produce a recording I enjoy. So if the actual stereo spread of instruments as panned and reproduced by the PA only goes from about 11-1, or worse 11:30-12:30, I might want to manipulate the stereo image I record so that on playback it sounds like an image extending from 10-2.

Lee already has got a lot of good feedback in this thread, including my bit above that the SZ concept is about exercising control over the stereo image.

He also mentioned something that is very important to me:  that is, if you want to get more towards PAS and hence are using a smaller included angle, you should then increase your capsule spacing.

For years, one of my favorite configuration is a wider spacing, like 12 inches (NOS spacing), and an angle of 65-75 degrees. I really keep hoping one of the mounting bar folks will make this as an offered product -- 12 inch spacing and 70 degree angle. This is often a great pattern for what we do.

I too wished someone produced a more PAS active bar. I would def buy one

[noahbickart]

Darktrain's new larger "vark" bars are the perfect pas active bar. Use one of his new small risers in a shure doughnut, and point away!

[F.O.Bean]

Darktrain's new larger "vark" bars are the perfect pas active bar. Use hs new small riser in a shure doughnut.

Yea I have one of those and 2 vark bars so I'm covered if I need to run something other than the active bars. And the schoeps actives fit perfectly into Oktava mic mounts as well. I use those and the vark bars together to get just what I need!!!

[it-goes-to-eleven]

If there is sufficient interest, I will do a run of PAS bars for Schoeps and Jon's AKG actives:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160867.0

[ArchivalAudio]

So I've read most of all the words here and I am not disagreeing  ~ or agreeing.
I'll add that using "bars" are really creating a stereo array, and this makes the "stereo" image.

While I have done many free form, and PAS, in the past I usually  (currently) like to use a stereo array to create a realistic stereo image.
ORTF up close is nice, but further back can be boomy, and have a hole in the imaging, NOS is also good for this. DIN or DIN a are nice for further back.
all of these stereo arrays were "developed" by reputable sources to "create" a STEREO image, most with using a Cardiod capsule.
Obviously there is Blumlein, for Figure 8's (which I love this natural image), and other omni set ups, spaced etc.

Back in the late 80's I often heard folks refer to Near coincident or cross coincident. for usually running XY and different angles.
Some of the Oade';s recordings from 1985 were running schoeps DIN they called it 17cm @90°, some said near coincident.

my point is that just aiming at the stacks (PAS) may get full direct sound , but may not give you a convinceable stereo image -~ Heck before I knew much I ran my old TOA k1' spaced at 24" on a bar a friend made pointed at the stacks, those recordings sound good, but do have a hole in the middle, sometimes.

I seek to create a stereo snapshot of an event, that is pleasing to my ears, and hopefully others too.

If you read Audio In Media there are some great pictorial descriptions of various mic arrays to create stereo images.

In AUDIO IN MEDIA, Ninth Edition, Stanley Alten-internationally recognized as a scholar and expert in the area of audio production-continues to provide students with an introduction to the basic techniques and principles necessary for audio production in today's media. The clear and current illustrations and photos and student-friendly writing in Alten's market-leading text have helped professors effectively teach this technically-based course to thousands of introductory audio production students. Comprehensive, technically accurate, and up-to-date, the text covers informational, perceptual, and aesthetic aspects of sound as they apply to each stage of the production process-from planning to post-production.

any how
"bars" are not only convenient they can help create a truer stereo image, sure you can get tou your templates, and measure , creating stereo , has been designed by many authorities to convince our ears that we are there.

 
--Ian

[ScoobieKW]

Stereo image is a function of two variables, distance between mics, and angle of mics. The result varies depending on these factors.
Each fixed bar gives you one solution. Variable bars allow you to vary distance and angle to achieve a stereo image suitable for that particular position.
The new Neumann iOS app, lets you see easily how changeing angle and distance changes the stereo image, and also how much of the stereo information comes from time arrival diffences between the mics, and how much of the stereo information is from level differences.

while fixed bars are useful in known and consistent mic placements, I wouldn't leave home without a flexible variable bar, along with my Stereophonic Zoom charts, and the iOS app.

[stevetoney]

Stereo image is a function of two variables, distance between mics, and angle of mics. The result varies depending on these factors.
Each fixed bar gives you one solution. Variable bars allow you to vary distance and angle to achieve a stereo image suitable for that particular position.
The new Neumann iOS app, lets you see easily how changeing angle and distance changes the stereo image, and also how much of the stereo information comes from time arrival diffences between the mics, and how much of the stereo information is from level differences.

while fixed bars are useful in known and consistent mic placements, I wouldn't leave home without a flexible variable bar, along with my Stereophonic Zoom charts, and the iOS app.

Archivalaudio and scoobie...philosophically, I agree completely with what is said in your posts above, but I'd point out that at a club show where the PA is pumping out most of the sound, unless you're stage lip, close to the stage where you're hearing the instruments from the stage, or the show isn't mic'ed through the PA, your stereo image out on the floor in the sweet spot is mostly a function of whatever the sound engineer decides he want's to route through each PA channel. 

In addition to that, albiet small, there's a latency sound delay between the PA sound and the sound coming from the stage.  If you're not pointed at the stacks to maximize the clean signal coming from the primary sound source, IMO the recorded sound tends to break up and become less defined...more echo-y.  Obviously, the closer to the stage, the less this is an issue.

Both of these are addtional reasons to consider PAS configs, IMO.

[page]

I'm with Steve on that one. There is a time and place, and in a shitty bar recording "in the room" is one of those.

[ScoobieKW]

I'm not one to disagree that PAS may be appropriate at the right time. Many Nak300 recordings I cut my teeth on as a young Deadhead were recorded PAS.

My point is simply that given the variables in mic placement and room acoustics, I don't see much value for my recording style in a mounting bar for a fixed pattern.

[page]

I'm not one to disagree that PAS may be appropriate at the right time. Many Nak300 recordings I cut my teeth on as a young Deadhead were recorded PAS.

My point is simply that given the variables in mic placement and room acoustics, I don't see much value for my recording style in a mounting bar for a fixed pattern.

I also agree with this. I use a kwon-style setup, but it's a variable adjustable (within reason). I'm not sure I'd go back to a fixed bar setup....

I don't think there is a universal PAS setup, there is stuff that comes closer, but there just isn't a universal setup option that really maximizes the output of our gear. We encounter too many variables for it to work like that.


edit: palindrome post. w00t w00t
n3rd4lyf3.

[trustthex]

110 posts away from l33t palindrome actions...


also, i love my SP-GNA-3 for this very reason.  It will do just about everything a protractor & ruler can dream up.