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Author Topic: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging  (Read 10400 times)

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Offline d5

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Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« on: September 13, 2007, 09:48:57 PM »
A link Michael William paper on microphone recording angle, distance and location and their effect on imaging:
http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf

it's certainly an interesting read and i'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts on angular distortion, especially his assertion (assuming i'm reading it correctly) that of the following patterns; DIN, ORTF and X-Y; DIN has the lowest angular distortion (or hole in the center), followed by ORTF and finally X-Y with the highest.

...hopefully i'm not duplicating a previous post, but i searched and didn't see it
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 10:47:04 PM by d5 »
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Offline boojum

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Re: Micheal WIlliams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 10:15:02 PM »
Very interesting article.  I am saving a copy and printing it off to read.  Just the info I need.  Thanks!    8)
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 10:57:41 PM »
d5, please let's be careful not to link "X/Y" with the cardioid pattern alone. X/Y simply means "coincident stereo." It's true that X/Y with cardioids has a rather high amount of angular distortion; there are other problems with X/Y cardioids as well. But X/Y with supercardioids has less of all these problems, and X/Y with figure-8s (at 90 degrees), a/k/a "Blumlein," comes off smelling like a rose.

So it's not X/Y-ness as such that has the problems--it's X/Y with cardioids that has the problems.

--best regards
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 09:28:06 AM by DSatz »
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Offline d5

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 11:03:30 PM »
d5, please let's be careful not to link "X/Y" with the cardioid pattern alone. X/Y simply means "coincident stereo." It's true that X/Y with cardioids has a rather high amount of angular distortion; there are other problems with X/Y cardioids as well. But X/Y with supercardioids has less of all these problems, and X/Y with figure-8s (at 90 degrees), a/k/a "Blumlein," comes off smelling like a rose.

So it's not X/Y-ness as such that has the problems--it's X/Y with cardioids that has the problems.

--best regards

good point! i was specially looking at the graph for cardioid pattern... i wish akg made a figure-8 capsule for the 480/460
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 11:06:05 PM by d5 »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 09:22:23 AM »
Also, d5 (may I call you "d"?), the big revelation from Williams' work--for me, at least--was how we, or at least some of us, need to adjust our basic thinking about stereo miking techniques.

From what I see in a lot of Web postings here and elsewhere, some people seem to hold firm opinions about which stereo miking techniques are their favorite--apart from the context of any particular recording situation. Like, in my previous message I said something positive about "Blumlein" stereo recording, and I know for a fact that there are people who would consider themselves charter members of "team Blumlein" if there were such a thing. That's kind of absurd in an almost dadaistic way--like holding up one end of a clothesline and expecting the other end to hold itself up so that you can dry your clothes on it. There's no such thing as a stereo recording method that's best in all circumstances; there can't ever be such a thing. Championing one method above all others only shows that a person doesn't get it (yet).

What Williams' work taught me was that every stereo microphone setup has a particular range (side to side) that it covers properly--he calls this the "stereophonic recording angle" of the setup. For setups with different microphone patterns, angles and distances between the mikes, this angle is different, and his charts and graphs let you figure out what that angle of any practical setup is.

The point is then that, if you're going to use a particular microphone arrangement, you need to match the "stereophonic recording angle" of that setup to the angular width of the direct sound sources in the recording venue. You can do that by choosing a miking distance that places the furthest left and right direct sound sources just within the coverage angle.

Now, in a way that's at least partly ass-backwards; in real life you mostly don't simply choose a miking distance just because there's a certain miking method that you want to use. But neither is it the other way around, exactly. If you're being realistic, you consider both things at the same time: You choose a miking method that will work with a miking distance that will work with that miking method (loop until ready), given the width of the sound sources and what the room sounds like if you mike at various distances. You have to multitask a little, in other words, and consider these factors at the same time--not "first A, then B."

A prior commitment to one miking setup just gets in the way of this process. Again using Blumlein as an example--in some respects it really is shockingly close to an ideal stereophonic miking system. Its Achilles' heel, however, is its narrow stereophonic recording angle (only +/- 45 degrees). For widely spread-out sound sources, you end up having to back your microphones pretty far away to fit that narrow angle. And that can be fatal with bidirectional microphones, since by definition they're exactly as sensitive in the back as they are in front; they tend to "want" relatively close placement so that they don't get swamped with room sound.

So if you consider this miking technique out of context, you will see only its wonderfulness while in real-life recording, there aren't many situations in which its great virtues can actually be used to maximum effect. When it works well, it's unbeatable as far as localization is concerned, and potentially very good in other respects (except for the relative lack of a sense of envelopment or spaciousness, which requires decorrelated left and right channels especially at low frequencies--never a strong point with any coincident recording method, unfortunately). But examples of its actually working well are fewer than you might expect.

Do you see what I mean? Williams' idea tends to debunk any one miking method or microphone type as an ideal unto itself; it puts microphone patterns and stereo miking setups into a practical context, and makes the engineer responsible for using them appropriately so that the eventual playback system can do the right things, more or less, relative to the original recording situation. And oddly, that's a bigger picture than a lot of people seem to want to take in.

--best regards
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 01:27:20 PM by DSatz »
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Offline d5

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 08:09:06 PM »
DSatz, thank you for the detailed reply, it's really helped enforce my understanding of the paper!

I'm still trying to absorb this material, but you're right, it's making me rethink my understanding of microphone patterns. I've always brought a protracter with me to shows, but I'll be adding a copy of the SRA diagram for cardioids.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 10:20:37 PM »
d5, one thing for sure, if you have Williams' book or the "Zoom" article, is: If you're using a pair of cardioids and you don't absolutely need the mono compatibility of a coincident setup, then find some way to space your microphones apart a little, as in ORTF or the like.

Otherwise you end up having to angle the microphones way far apart (120 degrees or even more) to fill the soundstage, and then you get serious angular distortion. Or else if you angle them at a more conventional 90 degree angle, you get a huge pile-up in the center of the stereo image, since at that point, the two channels of the recording contain well over 50% the same signals; naturally most sounds will seem to come from near the center when that happens.

All in all I'd say, if you want to use cardioids, avoid X/Y, and if you want to use X/Y, avoid cardioids.

--best regards

P.S.: I recognize what your "logo photo" is a picture of--every summer I record a week-long, 12-hour-a-day series of master classes for opera singers, and I use a TCD-5M to make cassettes for the singers. (And I just realized that your on-line name is part of that model number.)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 11:48:50 PM by DSatz »
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Offline Massive Dynamic

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2007, 08:25:35 PM »
d5, one thing for sure, if you have Williams' book or the "Zoom" article, is: If you're using a pair of cardioids and you don't absolutely need the mono compatibility of a coincident setup, then find some way to space your microphones apart a little, as in ORTF or the like.

Otherwise you end up having to angle the microphones way far apart (120 degrees or even more) to fill the soundstage, and then you get serious angular distortion. Or else if you angle them at a more conventional 90 degree angle, you get a huge pile-up in the center of the stereo image, since at that point, the two channels of the recording contain well over 50% the same signals; naturally most sounds will seem to come from near the center when that happens.

All in all I'd say, if you want to use cardioids, avoid X/Y, and if you want to use X/Y, avoid cardioids.
So, where does that leave stereo mics, like my LSD2? Blumlein and M-S only? I remember reading another post of yours that recommended >90º separation when running cards X/Y. At a recent outdoor festival, I did just that, angling cards from 120º-135º. I think I prefer the sound of the greater included angle, though I am not sure why. Blumlein sounded awfully good when I ran it, though I could live without the crowd noise from behind.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 11:02:23 PM »
Clivestaples, since microphone patterns are three-dimensional, with Blumlein miking you can reduce the pickup of crowd noise if you elevate the microphone, and aim the front of it downward from that altitude toward whatever you're trying to pick up. Then the backs of the capsules will be pointing upward (to the same degree that the fronts are pointing downward), and the crowd noise will tend to be off-axis. You'll still pick up some crowd noise, but it will be lower in level and more diffuse.

As far as the LSD-2 is concerned, M/S and Blumlein are probably the two best-sounding choices it would be likely to offer. If you're going to record X/Y with cardioids, just be aware that if you set only a 90-degree angle between the capsules, you'll get an absurdly wide stereophonic recording angle--90 degrees to either side of center (180 degrees total!). Since most people listen over loudspeakers that are about 60 degrees apart (as viewed from the listener's position), the result is a huge loss of stereo effect. The pickup is very nearly mono for sound sources across the entire front quadrant.

Stereo microphones such as the Røde NT 4, or the microphone pairs that are built into the Zoom and Sony recorders, with two cardioid capsules stuck at a 90-degree angle between them, make great sense for recording a symposium or business meeting, where the people are seated almost everywhere around the microphone other than behind it. But Western musical performances aren't usually all around the listener--there usually is a definite front and back from the listener's perspective, with no direct sound coming from the sides. So you need a narrower stereophonic recording angle--and the moral of the story is, therefore, angle your cardioids farther apart if you're going to use X/Y cardioids.

Not to speak ill of your LSD-2, but it sure would be more useful if it had a supercardioid pattern setting, which wouldn't even have been terribly difficult for them to design in. Some stereo microphones have five patterns per capsule (Neumann USM 69) and others have even had nine (various older AKG and Neumann stereo mikes that are unfortunately no longer made).

--best regards
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 11:06:26 PM by DSatz »
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2007, 11:18:29 PM »
and angled them outward until I achieve a nice sounding image (thru headphones). So, a 2' spread, and 30º to 40º combined axis, made for a nice fat, very direct sound, especially considering my depth in the room.
I usually do this with a control recording in place, so if it fails, or doesn't work out as hoped, I still have the control copy.

You know, that's the same technique I use, I adjust the mic placement until it sounds good through headphones. I am not interested in what the 'true' space/spread sounded like...as what is the 'true' space anyway? Depends on where you were in it.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2007, 07:57:59 AM »
m0k3 and digifish_music, good luck using headphones to judge whether you've set your mikes up at a good distance and angle or not. I have to admit that in thirty years of doing that (a fair amount of that time doing it three or four nights a week, as well as every weekend), my results were always hit-or-miss.

There can be an enormous difference between the impressions you get from headphone listening versus playback over loudspeakers. Headphones lie--they'll tell you that everything is clear and in focus when it's not. Or they'll tell you that you've got a nice left/right panorama of sound going, when it's actually all muddled in the middle.

I'm not untalented at this and I tried my damnedest, but many times I just couldn't tell for sure whether everything was really in focus or not, so I guessed. Sometimes that means I guessed wrong, and the recording quality suffered. I started to drink heavily, and to wake up in places where I should never have been.

Eventually I learned a little more about acoustics, and began to take other clues into consideration, about the character of the space I was recording in, and matching my choice of miking technique to that space more rationally. That helped some. But the thing which has really helped the most in all this time is exactly what we're talking about here: Prof. Williams' charts, but especially having a clear grasp of the idea behind them--aiming to match the stereophonic recording angle to the expected playback angle.

Having spent just a few hours getting these ideas into my brain (then thinking it all through for myself over a period of weeks, just to make sure I really believed it), has drastically reduced the guesswork and the corresponding disappointments.

Not only has my "satisfaction ratio" with my recordings increased significantly--I've also dropped the extra twenty pounds I'd been trying to lose for years, learned six languages fluently, was made the head of my company and given a private jet, I seem unable to lose at Bingo any more (which has made quite an impression in all the churches around here--you never met people more ready to believe in miracles), all my hats and my underwear finally fit me right, I get more love and respect from everyone, and I've decided that I'm finally ready to learn how to tie my own shoelaces one of these days.

In short, I really can't recommend this highly enough.

--best regards
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 08:01:59 AM by DSatz »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2007, 11:49:41 AM »
m0k3, point taken 100%; I don't bring speakers to recordings, either; I don't drive, and can only bring as much equipment as I can balance on the point of my head on the subway. Plus loudspeakers sound so different depending on the room they're in, I might not be able to tell much from them, either. I guess it's Yet Another Skill that could be learned, but along with Swahili and rappelling, it's one that I doubt I'll ever get around to under the circumstances (i.e. "life").

I'm just saying: We who are forced to use headphones are missing huge chunks of needed auditory information as we fine-tune a stereo miking arrangement. So I really welcome it if a little theory can help me avoid some of my own wildest possible mistakes before I make them.

Also, I've found there's a real "positive reinforcement" effect from getting the stereo soundstage width more consistent than I did in the past. It helps to train me as to what to expect to hear over the headphones, so that the next time out, I can converge that much more quickly on the setup that I want to use. Doing this by ear is certainly faster than manipulating charts and graphs and formulas, but without some kind of guiding principles, one's results are likely to be rather random, and to have a lower "yield percentage."

Since I generally am hired by the musicians, and am usually the only person who's recording any given performance, they depend on me to get it right. There are usually no retakes if they (or I) don't like the results, so I'm very glad to get tools and methods that make my work more reliably usable.

--best regards
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Offline DaveG73

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 12:01:34 PM »
m0k3, point taken 100%; I don't bring speakers to recordings, either; I don't drive, and can only bring as much equipment as I can balance on the point of my head on the subway. Plus loudspeakers sound so different depending on the room they're in, I might not be able to tell much from them, either. I guess it's Yet Another Skill that could be learned, but along with Swahili and rappelling, it's one that I doubt I'll ever get around to under the circumstances (i.e. "life").

I'm just saying: We who are forced to use headphones are missing huge chunks of needed auditory information as we fine-tune a stereo miking arrangement. So I really welcome it if a little theory can help me avoid some of my own wildest possible mistakes before I make them.

Also, I've found there's a real "positive reinforcement" effect from getting the stereo soundstage width more consistent than I did in the past. It helps to train me as to what to expect to hear over the headphones, so that the next time out, I can converge that much more quickly on the setup that I want to use. Doing this by ear is certainly faster than manipulating charts and graphs and formulas, but without some kind of guiding principles, one's results are likely to be rather random, and to have a lower "yield percentage."

Since I generally am hired by the musicians, and am usually the only person who's recording any given performance, they depend on me to get it right. There are usually no retakes if they (or I) don't like the results, so I'm very glad to get tools and methods that make my work more reliably usable.

--best regards

Is it just me that jumps in to read a post whenever DSatz replies?

I am sure it can't be.

Even though I usually only understand about 20% of what he is saying it does make me do my research more and more.

+T to you sir, for keeping me reading, (When I should be doing far less important things  :P )

Dave.
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Offline Dede2002

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 01:12:05 PM »
Very good topic. Thanks a lot d5 (and dSatz). ;)
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 07:53:05 PM »
m0k3 and digifish_music, good luck using headphones to judge whether you've set your mikes up at a good distance and angle or not. I have to admit that in thirty years of doing that (a fair amount of that time doing it three or four nights a week, as well as every weekend), my results were always hit-or-miss.


I agree, but also I have found that good isolation between the live and headphone sound helps...

http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er4.aspx

http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/sealed-and-noise-canceling/sennheiser-hd-280-pro.php

and avoiding exaggerated stereo spread.

Then again I am mainly recording foley and nature so I am on a different mission...no one knows what the duck sounded like live but me, I am also not averse to post-production manipulating the stereo spread of the signal :)

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Offline d5

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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 08:04:36 PM »
But the thing which has really helped the most in all this time is exactly what we're talking about here: Prof. Williams' charts, but especially having a clear grasp of the idea behind them--aiming to match the stereophonic recording angle to the expected playback angle.

I've printed a few copies of chart #9 (for cardioids) and put em in my bag along with my trusty protracter


« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 08:06:39 PM by d5 »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2008, 12:08:44 PM »
William's Stereophonic Zoom charts that I've seen from his paper (I don't have his book) all show data for spacings up to 50cm.

I'll be doing some spaced omni recordings from a larger distance than I usually record at tomorrow and was wondering what the distance extrapolation would be to narrower SRA's. Anyone know what the spacing extrapolation for narrower angles would be?

I've used spacings of approx. 1 meter (39") in the past with good results, and that will be my starting point, but I'm curious and would like to try and apply his technique here.
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Offline boojum

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 12:17:40 PM »
GB -

I would guess you can extrapolate the distances.  However, omnis at a great distance?   Why not cards?  What are you recording?
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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2008, 12:47:25 PM »
An outdoor music festival.  I'm unsure of how close I'll be able to setup until I'm there.  I'll likely be able to get up front for some act and certain stages and will probably be farther back in 'the section' for others.  Regardless, the omnis sound great out there in the open with no fear of being enveloped in too much room ambiance farther back.

I'll have the ability to go up to around 2m (6') wide.

I've been schemeing on building a 'crocodile eye' to measure the sourch width angle, but have gotten pretty good at the 'back yard astronomer method' of estimating the angle using the width of my fist at arms length.  One fist width = approx 10deg.
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Offline boojum

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2008, 02:07:34 PM »
GB - here is the page where Williams discusses your situation, but not much.  ;o)
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Re: Michael Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2008, 07:04:43 PM »
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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2012, 11:35:45 PM »
ttt (found myself reading this thread again today)

oh, the link in the op > page not found

is this pdf floating around somewhere..?
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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2012, 01:16:21 AM »
ttt (found myself reading this thread again today)

oh, the link in the op > page not found

is this pdf floating around somewhere..?

direct link: http://www.rycote.com/images/uploads/The_Stereophonic_Zoom.pdf

found on this page with several other items I need to read: http://www.rycote.com/resources/technical_articles/

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2012, 10:46:34 AM »
The motherlode of Michael William's AES papers- downloadable PDFs from his own site: http://www.mmad.info/

Stereo, Multichannel and more.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline JD

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Re: Micheal Williams Paper Recording Angles & Imaging
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2012, 12:15:12 PM »
The motherlode of Michael William's AES papers- downloadable PDFs from his own site: http://www.mmad.info/

Stereo, Multichannel and more.

Thanks for that link
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Recorders: Edirol R09hr, Sound Devices 722

 

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