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Author Topic: Phase Inversion between two sources  (Read 3619 times)

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Offline optimisticpessimist

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Phase Inversion between two sources
« on: August 04, 2009, 05:22:58 PM »
Recently I've been stealth taping with two rigs (DPA 4061 > R-09 and Church Audio AT831 > R-09) with the hope that the two sources will complement each other and make a good matrix.

I noticed with a recent tape, however, that the two sources were 180 degrees out of phase.  I know this has to do with the distance between the left and right microphone of each set, as well as the distance from the sound source.  The DPAs were about 12" apart on my chest, the AT831s were more like 6"-7" apart on my collar, and I was standing 15-20 feet from the speaker stacks.

I know that combining the two sources while out of phase can result in some cancellation of frequencies, but the end result sounds pretty good to my ears.  I ended up making two versions, (one version with both sources as originally taped and one version with one source inverted,) and wanted some opinion on which sounds better to most people.


http://members.cox.net/alancaster9/dredg_2009-07-18_IDontKnow_V1.mp3

http://members.cox.net/alancaster15/dredg_2009-07-18_IDontKnow_V2.mp3


I'm also wondering if anyone can comment any further on this phase issue... just for my own education.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 05:52:09 PM by optimisticpessimist »

Offline taperj

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2009, 10:16:41 PM »
I've noticed many mics that are 180 degrees out and if that's the case as mshilarious said, its as easy as a phase flip in your DAW before mixing. I recorded a 6 channel last sunday, the Earthworks and Naiant mics agreed on phase wheres the Neumanns were 180 the other way, I've seen most brands/mics disagree about polarity with at least one other brand/mic, be it Schoeps, Neumann, etc etc etc. If your getting partial cancellation because of mic location that's another story and they probably won't ever mix nicely(unless someone knows some tricks I don't).

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Offline robertitrujillo

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 02:11:13 AM »
Semi-newbie here, when using two condensers of the same type, if you aren't sure you need the inverted, does it do any harm to leave them inverted all of the time? I suppose you can invert one in post..

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Offline optimisticpessimist

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 09:16:51 AM »
I went back and looked at some previous shows where I ran the same setup, and it does appear that polarity is the culprit.  However, I'm not convinced that reversing the polarity on one set is definitely necessary, and neither is inverting one file so they both match.  For example, I recently finished a NIN matrix of the two sources that I'm quite proud of, and the AT source was indeed inverted.  Of course, it's all a matter of opinion as to what actually sounds best in the end, but I think that phase cancellation isn't really much of a concern, since both sets of mics record the show slightly differently.  If the end result is balanced and even, then that's all that matters... at least to me.

NIN samples, for those who are interested...

REPTILE: http://members.cox.net/alancaster7/nin_2009-05-10_reptile.mp3


BECOMING: http://members.cox.net/alancaster12/nin_2009-05-10_becoming.mp3

Offline optimisticpessimist

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 12:55:27 PM »
If you are using two pairs of mics with different spacing then you are creating a phase difference when you mix them together which presumably is desirable.  Also, the mics will have different frequency response which further complicates the situation.  So it's very possible that you will enjoy reverse polarity more, although it's always good to be aware of the decisions you are making.

Same conclusion I've come to.  Thank you.

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 06:16:34 PM »
Would this kind of phasing issue be present on 4ch recorder tapes (like the R4)???  I'm curious how this plays out with the 4ch recorders out there...  Any experiences???

Thanks,

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Offline optimisticpessimist

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 06:23:13 PM »
Would this kind of phasing issue be present on 4ch recorder tapes (like the R4)???  I'm curious how this plays out with the 4ch recorders out there...  Any experiences???

Thanks,

Terry


Seems to me that it's entirely reliant on the wiring configuration of the mics themselves, and so the problem could show up when taping with two mic sets into a 4ch recorder.  But someone with more knowledge than I might have to correct me on that.

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 07:24:07 PM »
If it were me, I'd set up a mic stand in front of a full range speaker. Mount the mics on the stand and place them as close together as possible to insure that the diaphrams are both the same distance from the speaker. Play a 100Hz sine wav and record it. Look at the WAVs in audio editing software. This will tell you if you really have a "phase" problem. If the WAVs are in phase, all is good. If not, start narrowing it down to either the mics, cables, pre-amp or recorder, switching cables etc...
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 09:00:38 PM »
The theoretical stuff-
Consider an idealized case. Imagine just the left two mics to simplify things; one cardioid and one omni.  If the mics were coincident and the frequency responses of the mics were the same and the patterns were perfect and the levels were just right and the polarity was reversed on one of the mics, and you then summed the signals you would have the equivalent of a single figure-8 pattern. 

Why? Mathematically, a cardioid pattern is the sum of an omni and a figure-8. Adding a polarity reversed omni and cardioid signal together would cancel the two omni components since one of them is the opposite of the other leaving you with a figure-8 pattern. -(omni) + (omni + figure-8)  = figure-8

If the polarity was not reversed on one of the signals then you would end up with a wide cardioid. (omni) + (omni + figure-8) = 2(omni) + figure-8 = wide cardioid.

Any spacing between the mics introduces phase shift as someone else mentioned previously, and that makes things more complicated.  The amount of phase shift is not constant but increases with frequency.  When the phase difference between signals equals 180 degrees or any multiple of that, the signals will destructively interfere.  If the signals are exactly the same amplitude at that frequency, then they will cancel completely.  Conversely, when the phase difference between signals is zero or 360 degress or any multiples of that, they will constructively interfere and increase in level by 6db.  Phase differences between those extremes will interact too, according to their levels and phase differences.

All that means that you aren't just changing the polar pattern, but changing the polar pattern and the frequency response and the phase and impulse response in various ways at different frequencies.

The real world-
With the two pairs of mics spaced a small distance apart, frequency cancellation due to inverted polarity will mostly likely be audible as a change in level in the lower frequencies (where the phase shift between signals introduced by the spacing is small).  You'll hear changes at higher frequencies too because of the complex comb filtering intereaction, but the combing is dense and complex up there so you won't hear it as a reduction in level.  Instead you may hear a change in timbre, width or depth, or in the transients. Regardless of which polarity you choose the comb filtering is going to happen up there anyway. Understanding that, either polarity might 'sound better'.  For example- destructive interference at low frequencies may sound good by acting as sort of a high-pass and reducing excessive bass, likewise comb filtering higher up can add a desirable shine and air to the mid and high frequencies.. or not.  What sounds good is good.

I'm guessing the 1st link in the original post is with the mics in the same polarity (in other words, one file had the polarity flipped in the DAW) and the 2nd link is the unadjusted files with one pair out of polarity with the other.  I prefer the 1st becasue of the richer quality of the bass, because I hear depth in the recording more clearly and because the higher transients seem less smeared and less forward. That's with earbuds in my ears from the computer sound card.  Of course YMMV, I just wanted to clarify what's going on.  Hope that helps, if not ignore all the technical BS and just do whatever sounds good.
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Offline optimisticpessimist

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2009, 08:58:23 AM »
^ Nope... all of the technical info makes sense, and is very much appreciated.

Unfortunately your guess is off, though.  Version 1 is the matrix as I originally completed it, before realizing this phasing issue.  Version 2 has the cardioid waveform inverted in the DAW, so that it matches the omni source.

I also prefer version 1 because of the depth of the recording when listening on headphones.  Version 2 sounds more like it did when I was at the concert, standing about 15' FOS.  But I'm not a taping "purist" by any means, so I'm all for any process or technique that will make the end result sound better.  In this case, I like how V1 seems to make the music closer and more enveloping.  I'm not exactly sure WHY this is, though, especially based on your explanation of the polar patterns.

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Re: Phase Inversion between two sources
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2009, 09:22:41 AM »
Well there you go.  Whatever sounds best is. 

The polar pattern stuff applies mostly to the idealized case with the mics coincident.  In your case it's not so straight forward, but the principles still apply.  What I mean to say is I'm not sure the effect on the polar pattern is what "makes the music closer and more enveloping" as you describe it, as much as changes in the comb filtering effects.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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