Topic: mics directly into recorder question (at943 4.7k/853/ssdsm6; r-1;r09;iriverh120

[Will_S]

Thanks for the clarification Chris.

This is not a challenge, but when you said 4V on the iRiver, was that something you heard or measured yourself?  Or when you said the iRiver didn't put out enough volts earlier in the thread, was that something you measured or heard?

Maybe I should just use a voltmeter on a hacked miniplug wire out of my iRiver and post the results here.  But one thing I'm not clear on - is it actually useful to just measure voltage between the shield and signal wire or do I need to insert a specific value of resistor too?  And should I insert this value resistor for both channels?

Edit:  And another question...earlier in this thread you said no need for the 2.2K mod on the MKE2s.  But was that assuming 5V+ power?  Might things change since the R09 actually puts out 2.5?

[Javier Cinakowski]

the 853 and 933/943 are not lapel microphones, but hanging choir microphones.  They were designed for suspention over choirs, instrumental groups or over theater stages.

The were designed to handle high SPL's, varing slightly by model.  The goosneck podum version, and the hand held version both were designed with "distortion-free output even in intense sound fields"  Even the 853 hanging mic will handle 139SPL by AT's specs...

[illconditioned]

OK, let me weigh in here.

First, thanks to Chris, for not only doing all these tests, but taking the time to try to explain to the rest of us.

Now, I have two comments:

First, I believe all mics, AT831 or otherwise, will have *some* distortion if not powered correctly.  By "correctly", I mean having some resistor between the source of the FET and ground.  This could be 4.7k, 2.2k or whatever.  If you look at any schematic of a high-end mic, you'll see this resistor.  In fact, AT853x phantom adaptors (miniXLR to XLR) have a 5.1k resistor there (I've traced the circuit), so the 4.7k resistor that Chris found is pretty close.  Now, whether we *hear* the distortion is another factor.  That could depend on the sound level, low frequency content, or just how good our ears are.

Second, the so-called "plug-in-power" from recorders has two variables.  One is the open circuit voltage (eg., 2.5v for Edirol and MD), but also there is a series resistor inside.  If you want to measure, put a voltmeter on the (unloaded) jack and measure it.  Next, put a small resistor, something like 1k, across the output, and meaure the voltage again.  You can use ohms law to figure out what the internal resistor is.  For Edirol it is 2.2k.  For Minidisc it is 6.8k.  The higher this internal resistor, the harder it is to get enough "juice" to power a set of external mics.  I believe Guysonic did some nice measurements, but those were to power his specific mics, so not much help to us.

Oh yeah, choosing the resistors (2.2k or whatever) depends on both the mic and the plug-in-power circuit.  I've had great luck with a 2.2k resistor and with Sennheiser MKE2 mics on the Edirol.  I have not experimented with other setups.  I did modify several pairs of AT853 mics with 2.2k, but did not test them extensively.

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

Chris, wow...I wasn't taking a jab at you at all.  All I was saying is that I don't have the equipment to test these mics (ie. a distortion analyzer). You do, I don't. So all I can do is test them in the field. That's all I'm trying to say and you are 100% correct when you say the same mics can do different things at different shows.

Peace,
Dan

Man its all good I was just playing with you Its cool... 

[Church-Audio]

the 853 and 933/943 are not lapel microphones, but hanging choir microphones.  They were designed for suspention over choirs, instrumental groups or over theater stages.

The were designed to handle high SPL's, varing slightly by model.  The goosneck podum version, and the hand held version both were designed with "distortion-free output even in intense sound fields"  Even the 853 hanging mic will handle 139SPL by AT's specs...

Well I remember when they first came out and we were also using them as lapel mics hence the reason why they sell lapel clips for these mics But anyway I would also have to disagree with you as far as the quoted spl these mics overload a lot sooner then 139 db I can tell you that from real world experience as a live sound engineer we tried to use them on drums they did overload quite well.. and when we measured what levels they were overloading at it was MUCH less then 139db....

[Church-Audio]

Thanks for the clarification Chris.

This is not a challenge, but when you said 4V on the iRiver, was that something you heard or measured yourself?  Or when you said the iRiver didn't put out enough volts earlier in the thread, was that something you measured or heard?

Maybe I should just use a voltmeter on a hacked miniplug wire out of my iRiver and post the results here.  But one thing I'm not clear on - is it actually useful to just measure voltage between the shield and signal wire or do I need to insert a specific value of resistor too?  And should I insert this value resistor for both channels?

Edit:  And another question...earlier in this thread you said no need for the 2.2K mod on the MKE2s.  But was that assuming 5V+ power?  Might things change since the R09 actually puts out 2.5?

You can not do my mod to a mic that only has two wires. I am pretty sure the h120 puts out 4 volts the one I had did I measured it.. I do make mistake man cut me some slack

[Will_S]

Thanks for the clarification Chris.

This is not a challenge, but when you said 4V on the iRiver, was that something you heard or measured yourself?  Or when you said the iRiver didn't put out enough volts earlier in the thread, was that something you measured or heard?

Maybe I should just use a voltmeter on a hacked miniplug wire out of my iRiver and post the results here.  But one thing I'm not clear on - is it actually useful to just measure voltage between the shield and signal wire or do I need to insert a specific value of resistor too?  And should I insert this value resistor for both channels?

Edit:  And another question...earlier in this thread you said no need for the 2.2K mod on the MKE2s.  But was that assuming 5V+ power?  Might things change since the R09 actually puts out 2.5?

You can not do my mod to a mic that only has two wires. I am pretty sure the h120 puts out 4 volts the one I had did I measured it.. I do make mistake man cut me some slack

See, that's the thing.  I wasn't trying to not cut you slack.  It's because you have so much knowledge and are held it high regard here, that it's important to know if that's something you measured directly (in which case, no point in my repeating it - although based on Richard's post maybe I should with some resistors wired in as well), or if you were repeating something you'd read, in which case it might not be so reliable.

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

+Ts all around for good discussion and info.

[Alchemy]

the 853 and 933/943 are not lapel microphones, but hanging choir microphones.  They were designed for suspention over choirs, instrumental groups or over theater stages.

The were designed to handle high SPL's, varing slightly by model.  The goosneck podum version, and the hand held version both were designed with "distortion-free output even in intense sound fields"  Even the 853 hanging mic will handle 139SPL by AT's specs...

Correction, the 943 is a lav mic. And AT only really designed these mics to be run on phantom power, or one of their own proprietary power modules. The method of converting them so that they terminate on a 1/8th jack is more or less a "hack" in itself.

[illconditioned]

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

Hey Will.  Are you using the Microphone Madness version of the Sennheiser MKE2?  Does this have three wires?
From what I have *read* (Sennheiser tech docs), all mics have three wires (shield + two inside).  But some have one of the wires shorted to shield *at the capsule* while others do not.  You can test them with an ohm meter and see which you have.  I've got MKE 2-5 (original from Sennheiser) and this is really three wire.  I'm also wondering if you can take a two wire version (like the MKE 2-4) and disconnect the short at the capsule.  It may be possible to take the back off the capsule (crazy glued on).

Most of this stuff is beyond the average TS.com reader probably.  But hopefully Chris and other modders can perform these services.  As I've said in earlier posts, I do not do mods for others any more.

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

Thanks for the clarification Chris.

This is not a challenge, but when you said 4V on the iRiver, was that something you heard or measured yourself?  Or when you said the iRiver didn't put out enough volts earlier in the thread, was that something you measured or heard?

Maybe I should just use a voltmeter on a hacked miniplug wire out of my iRiver and post the results here.  But one thing I'm not clear on - is it actually useful to just measure voltage between the shield and signal wire or do I need to insert a specific value of resistor too?  And should I insert this value resistor for both channels?

Edit:  And another question...earlier in this thread you said no need for the 2.2K mod on the MKE2s.  But was that assuming 5V+ power?  Might things change since the R09 actually puts out 2.5?

You can not do my mod to a mic that only has two wires. I am pretty sure the h120 puts out 4 volts the one I had did I measured it.. I do make mistake man cut me some slack

See, that's the thing.  I wasn't trying to not cut you slack.  It's because you have so much knowledge and are held it high regard here, that it's important to know if that's something you measured directly (in which case, no point in my repeating it - although based on Richard's post maybe I should with some resistors wired in as well), or if you were repeating something you'd read, in which case it might not be so reliable.

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

+Ts all around for good discussion and info.

No offence but I have been using Sennheiser mics for over 20 years now... I know a few things about them THE MKE2 mics that I have worked on are all two wire mics... actually......Ground And the yellow wire are often attached at the mic capsule. Maybe you should not be so quick to judge my knowledge?

[Will_S]

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

Hey Will.  Are you using the Microphone Madness version of the Sennheiser MKE2?  Does this have three wires?
From what I have *read* (Sennheiser tech docs), all mics have three wires (shield + two inside).  But some have one of the wires shorted to shield *at the capsule* while others do not.  You can test them with an ohm meter and see which you have.  I've got MKE 2-5 (original from Sennheiser) and this is really three wire.  I'm also wondering if you can take a two wire version (like the MKE 2-4) and disconnect the short at the capsule.  It may be possible to take the back off the capsule (crazy glued on).

No, I am using MKE-2-5s as well.  I bought them used from someone who had bought them from Sennheiser before Microphone Madness even existed.  They came terminated in TA4F connectiors, then I did the 2.2K mod and miniplug termination myself.

[Church-Audio]

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

Hey Will.  Are you using the Microphone Madness version of the Sennheiser MKE2?  Does this have three wires?
From what I have *read* (Sennheiser tech docs), all mics have three wires (shield + two inside).  But some have one of the wires shorted to shield *at the capsule* while others do not.  You can test them with an ohm meter and see which you have.  I've got MKE 2-5 (original from Sennheiser) and this is really three wire.  I'm also wondering if you can take a two wire version (like the MKE 2-4) and disconnect the short at the capsule.  It may be possible to take the back off the capsule (crazy glued on).

No, I am using MKE-2-5s as well.  I bought them used from someone who had bought them from Sennheiser before Microphone Madness even existed.  They came terminated in TA4F connectiors, then I did the 2.2K mod and miniplug termination myself.

Test for continuity between the ground and the yellow wire or red wire you might find that they are actually 0 ohms meaning your mod is doing nothing...

[illconditioned]

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

Hey Will.  Are you using the Microphone Madness version of the Sennheiser MKE2?  Does this have three wires?
From what I have *read* (Sennheiser tech docs), all mics have three wires (shield + two inside).  But some have one of the wires shorted to shield *at the capsule* while others do not.  You can test them with an ohm meter and see which you have.  I've got MKE 2-5 (original from Sennheiser) and this is really three wire.  I'm also wondering if you can take a two wire version (like the MKE 2-4) and disconnect the short at the capsule.  It may be possible to take the back off the capsule (crazy glued on).

No, I am using MKE-2-5s as well.  I bought them used from someone who had bought them from Sennheiser before Microphone Madness even existed.  They came terminated in TA4F connectiors, then I did the 2.2K mod and miniplug termination myself.

Test for continuity between the ground and the yellow wire or red wire you might find that they are actually 0 ohms meaning your mod is doing nothing...

Good point Chris.  Test everything!  I've got Sennheiser MKE2-5-??  something else at the end.  I'll check that soon.

  Richard

[Will_S]

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

+Ts all around for good discussion and info.

No offence but I have been using Sennheiser mics for over 20 years now... I know a few things about them THE MKE2 mics that I have worked on are all two wire mics... actually......Ground And the yellow wire are often attached at the mic capsule. Maybe you should not be so quick to judge my knowledge?

So are you saying this schematic is not showing alternative 3 vs 2 wire powering schemes?  Edit:  I already noted that some models are shorted at the capsule, I am aware of this, not sure why that equates to assuming mine were?

http://www.soundbydesign.net/pdf_downloads/wiring/mke2.pdf

[Church-Audio]

As to the "only two wires", I think that's another example of needing to be careful when you talk about gear you don't have a lot of experience with.  Some versions of the MKE2 ARE 3 wire.  Whether they perform just fine with a simple 2 wire configuration is another question, but not all MKE2s are shorted to 2 wire at the capsule.  (In particular, the MKE-2-5 are wired as true 3 wire, there may be other models as well.)

+Ts all around for good discussion and info.

No offence but I have been using Sennheiser mics for over 20 years now... I know a few things about them THE MKE2 mics that I have worked on are all two wire mics... actually......Ground And the yellow wire are often attached at the mic capsule. Maybe you should not be so quick to judge my knowledge?

So are you saying this schematic is not showing alternative 3 vs 2 wire powering schemes?  Edit:  I already noted that some models are shorted at the capsule, I am aware of this, not sure why that equates to assuming mine were?

http://www.soundbydesign.net/pdf_downloads/wiring/mke2.pdf

Um no it shows what I was saying about the shield and one of the wires being directly connected to each other. And you can add a resistor to a mic but your not going turn it into a three wire capsule... All they are doing is adding a bias resistor and a cap...This is not three wire. Most belt packs have a separate power and signal because they can be used as a line input and its not desirable to have bias voltage on a device that is at line level and does not require it. Most packs are l

Line in
Mic in
Pwr out
ground.
but this is not three wire.