Topic: Choice of microphones

[Myco]

Unfortunately, the screaming drunks I have experienced at jeff beck shows sound the same on any mic.

Not to be impolite or anything, but it seem like US crowds are louder than European crowds in general. If we're not off to see a soccer match, that is.

I've never seen a show outside the US, but from what I've been told, and have heard from musicians, the Americans are far more rowdier and loud during concerts. It's a bad thing for tapers, but musicians love the added energy they get in the US I've been told. Although touring around the world is always a goal for most bands.

[acidjack]

Unfortunately, the screaming drunks I have experienced at jeff beck shows sound the same on any mic.

Not to be impolite or anything, but it seem like US crowds are louder than European crowds in general. If we're not off to see a soccer match, that is.

Really?  Must depend where in Europe a bit... I've heard plenty of UK-based recordings where people who are just hammered are screaming and talking in ways that would ... well, equal their U.S. counterparts, I guess

[newplanet7]

First off great answers in this thread. THE CHOICE/SOUND OF mics is subjective anyways

If you don't have to conceal your gear, then most folks I know reserve the omnis for outdoor work. If you do have to hide your stuff, then having mics that are very small, and sound good sort of reduces your options (to a bunch of omnis and a couple of cardioid mics, especially in the sub $500 range).
 The best 2 pieces of advice I can give without more info is; to learn about how sound propagates and reflects (e.g. where does it sound like ass in a venue and how to figure out the sweet spot). Second, experiment in the field.
Oh, and read lots, especially the stickies in each forum section. Best of luck and welcome aboard.

Sound advice from page.

853s vs. CA-14 it's a tossup on sound. 
I'd save my $$ and move straight to DPA 406x, DPA 402x or Schoeps MKx>CMR>tinybox if I was that into taping.  It seems to be where a lot of folks end up (stealth tapers, anyway).

Great advice here also. The key here is you have made the decision that you love effing taping.
If you are still kicking around the idea of taping go smaller/less expense if you decide it's not your bag.

But day in day out on a consistent basis those Schoeps and Neumanns stood out every time--I found very few clunkers with those two mikes.   

Great point here also, going along with bypassing other mics and starting where you will end. A slamming pair of mics without going through the upgrade game. Once you choose your flavor, most mics will pull heat once in a while. IT'S THE CONSISTENCY THAT YOU PAY FOR.

Another choice for omni's in the mid-price point range that sound AMAZING , but are a little more rarer are the Nevaton MCE-400's. They are easily better than most of the mic's you've listed, but only come with fixed omni capsules.

Definitely check into these. Subjective here but, most tapes stealth and open absolutely smoke!

[Church-Audio]

First of all let me briefly introduce myself. For a while my plan has been to start recording concerts, however I did not have a clue what gear to use to get good enough recordings, only it needed to be stealth recordings most of the time.  Being a member of Dime I tried to get a picture of what gear was mostly used. Last Friday I found Taperssection and was able to find lots of knowledge and good advice by reading posts. As always when entering a "new world" I am amazed by how much there is to understand and learn and how much knowledge people accumulate when they do what they love to do.

So based on what I learned at Taperssection over the weekend, I today emailed Church Audio to place an order for his supersale offer CA14 cards/omnis and a CA-9100 plus a cable to the deck. I am also buying a Sony PCM-M10. I believe this will be a great stealt rig to grow with while I learn the trade.

So, over to my questions, probably the first one's in a never ending row......

When, and if, there is time to move on from the CA-14's it seems like DPA-4061 and AT853 are at the next level and favored by many of you. I would appreciate if owners of these mic's would describe what differences there are between CA-14, DPA-4061 and AT853 in terms of size, sound quality, tonality, ease of use etc.

Also it seems like most tapers prefer omnis compared with cards. I am buying both and plan to use omis when I'm close to the PA and cards when further away. Is this a correct strategy or is it overkill? I try to get seats in the first 10 rows if possible.

Thank you!

If you are one day going to upgrade from the ca-14 it would not be to an 853 the 853 is a great mic but not a huge difference between my ca-14 and the 853. Who knows by the time you are going to upgrade there may very well be a ca-15 You never know what I will come up with next. I am right now working on a new ca series mic that will be half the size of the ca-11 but  that is   
quite a few months off from being reality. If you were going to upgrade it would probably be to larger phantom powered mics.
As far as DPA goes they are the best mic made in the world at any price IMO. And no they are not paying me yet To say that. I think DPA makes the best mics because they have the proper means and engineering to test the product they make and every other mic manufacture including me uses the gear made by DPA / B&K. They are an industry standard for cardioid and omni directional mics. Its just that not many people can afford to run them.
Really in the end its placement and where you are in the audience and how it sounds at the venue that will make Any quality mic sound great.

[F.O.Bean]

First off great answers in this thread. THE CHOICE/SOUND OF mics is subjective anyways

If you don't have to conceal your gear, then most folks I know reserve the omnis for outdoor work. If you do have to hide your stuff, then having mics that are very small, and sound good sort of reduces your options (to a bunch of omnis and a couple of cardioid mics, especially in the sub $500 range).
 The best 2 pieces of advice I can give without more info is; to learn about how sound propagates and reflects (e.g. where does it sound like ass in a venue and how to figure out the sweet spot). Second, experiment in the field.
Oh, and read lots, especially the stickies in each forum section. Best of luck and welcome aboard.

Sound advice from page.

853s vs. CA-14 it's a tossup on sound. 
I'd save my $$ and move straight to DPA 406x, DPA 402x or Schoeps MKx>CMR>tinybox if I was that into taping.  It seems to be where a lot of folks end up (stealth tapers, anyway).

Great advice here also. The key here is you have made the decision that you love effing taping.
If you are still kicking around the idea of taping go smaller/less expense if you decide it's not your bag.

But day in day out on a consistent basis those Schoeps and Neumanns stood out every time--I found very few clunkers with those two mikes.   

Great point here also, going along with bypassing other mics and starting where you will end. A slamming pair of mics without going through the upgrade game. Once you choose your flavor, most mics will pull heat once in a while. IT'S THE CONSISTENCY THAT YOU PAY FOR.

100% agreed! I pull CONSISTENT recordings w/ my 483/MBHO/mk41 setups

[Myco]

While I don't disagree with what most here are saying, I'd caution that just because someone, posts in bold type, capital letters, or adds all sorts of smileys to their post, doesn't necessarily mean that they are right. Ha!

[rastasean]

Doing the needful and mentioning the countryman b3 omini microphones. Much small than the at853 and ca14s and can run PIP from the sony m10 but I don't how the size compared to they other mentioned microphones.
The downside is that you buy two separate microphones and have them (or do it yourself) terminated to something like 1/8" (3.5mm) the only reason this is a downside is because you have to do one more thing before you can use them.

something to think about....

[George]

I would also recommend the Countryman B3's, I've been pulling some nice recordings with them and I'm very happy with them.  Plus, they cost like half of the dpa 406x line.  I had my B3's terminated for a dirt cheap price from a fellow TS member by the way.

I still use my at853's for card and hyper card use and they work well, but I've intentionally been trying to get tix to shows where I'm close to the PA so I can run the B3's instead.

[newplanet7]

While I don't disagree with what most here are saying, I'd caution that just because someone, posts in bold type, capital letters, or adds all sorts of smileys to their post, doesn't necessarily mean that they are right. Ha!

Forgot to quite you about the nevs. Ha!

[yousef]

Really?  Must depend where in Europe a bit... I've heard plenty of UK-based recordings where people who are just hammered are screaming and talking in ways that would ... well, equal their U.S. counterparts, I guess

Yup.

[absnj]

In addition to your choice of mics, you will also have to consider your preferred seat location.  Getting a seat in the first ten rows gives you a good visual, but often a very poor mix of sound, especially lacking in vocals and keyboards.  This will be venue specific and often show specific.  Many venues are adding front-fills or taking other measures to improve the mix up front, but in many venues you will want to be either in front of the stack or further back and in the center.  Of course, if you get seats up front, you can usually trade pretty easily to move back.

[adrianf74]

In addition to your choice of mics, you will also have to consider your preferred seat location.  Getting a seat in the first ten rows gives you a good visual, but often a very poor mix of sound, especially lacking in vocals and keyboards.  This will be venue specific and often show specific.  Many venues are adding front-fills or taking other measures to improve the mix up front, but in many venues you will want to be either in front of the stack or further back and in the center.  Of course, if you get seats up front, you can usually trade pretty easily to move back.

Theatres generally have a good vocal/keyboard mix up front so I've had the luck of picking up seats about 6-10 rows back, dead centre, with great results with omnis.  In clubs, I'll usually try and line up with the stacks and also get good results with the omnis.  If I end up getting stuck towards the board area (or within the "perfect triangle" to the stage), I'll run the cards.

[Jeffbeckfan1]

In addition to your choice of mics, you will also have to consider your preferred seat location.  Getting a seat in the first ten rows gives you a good visual, but often a very poor mix of sound, especially lacking in vocals and keyboards.  This will be venue specific and often show specific.  Many venues are adding front-fills or taking other measures to improve the mix up front, but in many venues you will want to be either in front of the stack or further back and in the center.  Of course, if you get seats up front, you can usually trade pretty easily to move back.

Theatres generally have a good vocal/keyboard mix up front so I've had the luck of picking up seats about 6-10 rows back, dead centre, with great results with omnis.  In clubs, I'll usually try and line up with the stacks and also get good results with the omnis.  If I end up getting stuck towards the board area (or within the "perfect triangle" to the stage), I'll run the cards.

This is a possible drawback going from taking pictures to taping. I always tried to get a seat as close as possible to the stage before, now when taping I need to take a step back and set my priorities on the PA stack instead.   Getting tickets for the upcoming Bonamassa concert I chose 15th row center instead of 1st row, oh well.

[Jeffbeckfan1]

Want to say a huge Thank You to you all for your advice and great comments. I am glad all your answers have kept my learning curve steep. If I may, I will PM some of you to get more insight on details.

I feel very comfortable with the gear I purchased and realize I will have to work and learn in order to optimize it. Am trying out Audacity at the moment to be able to do some post tweaking as well. Gear, taping at the right place and post tweaking seem to be integral.

As for mic's the DPA's are really interesting for the future. Also glad the Countryman B3's and the Nevatons were mentioned. Still the Shoeps is some kind of ultimate goal.

Just to get a feel for the statistics I did an interesting search at Dime today. Searched for CMC**, CA**, Shoeps, DPA etc. Most people don't reveal what gear they use, but some do. If anyone is interested I can post my findings.

[acidjack]

Want to say a huge Thank You to you all for your advice and great comments. I am glad all your answers have kept my learning curve steep. If I may, I will PM some of you to get more insight on details.

I feel very comfortable with the gear I purchased and realize I will have to work and learn in order to optimize it. Am trying out Audacity at the moment to be able to do some post tweaking as well. Gear, taping at the right place and post tweaking seem to be integral.

As for mic's the DPA's are really interesting for the future. Also glad the Countryman B3's and the Nevatons were mentioned. Still the Shoeps is some kind of ultimate goal.

Just to get a feel for the statistics I did an interesting search at Dime today. Searched for CMC**, CA**, Shoeps, DPA etc. Most people don't reveal what gear they use, but some do. If anyone is interested I can post my findings.

That's because (sadly, as to DIME anyway) a) they don't know, probably because they aren't the taper and didn't ask the taper in advance, or b) their gear is total garbage (i.e., the internal mics on virtually any machine in virtually any situation). 

It continues to annoy me that only the tapers of the "traditional taping bands" (aka Phish, moe., etc.) are the ones who, as a group, take any kind of care about what gear they use and tracking their lineage.  Those of us who tape a lot of the bands you find on DIME that actually show we care about this stuff are sadly in the minority.  But then, you already knew that