Topic: Team Classical - How do you "master" your live recordings?

[jnorman34]

No matter what I do, I cannot acheive an appropriate "commercial" volume level with my live chamber music recordings. Anytime i try to apply a "mastering" patch to the tracks, it sounds harsh and unreal. same thing i f i try to apply any kind of compression, multi-band compression, or even just a limiter - they all adversely affect the sound of the recording. the only thing that doesnt screw up the sound is to just physically raise the signal level to just under clipping, but that doesnt ever sound like a commercial recording.

so, how do you "master" your live recordings? how do commercial classical recordings acheive appropriate volume levels and still retain a nice smooth sound? thanks.

[Gutbucket]

I'm no mastering expert, but my ears tell me the same things your telling you when I've toyed with compression and limiting on my chamber and orchestra recordings.  I can get good sounding results by manually adjusting the overall macro dynamics between loud and soft passages or sections of loud applause with the volume envelope tool or equivalent, and maybe knock down a stray peak here or there so I can raise the overall level.  Other than that I spend more time carefully adjusting EQ. 

..but that doesnt ever sound like a commercial recording.. how do commercial classical recordings acheive appropriate volume levels and still retain a nice smooth sound?

I think a good question is 'what is the appropriate volume level'? To determine that consider the audience for your recordings and how they'll use your music. If my levels end up less hot than commercial stuff, I just reach for the volume knob which immediately fixes the problem. Smooth, transparent sound is more important than absolute level for my customer, which is me.  If I was going to listen to my classical recordings in the car or on an Ipod for subway commutes, I'd be more aggressive with the volume envelope, or possibly resort to compression/limiting since the large macro dynamics of this type of music would then become more of a problem than the sonic trade-offs that may not even be audible under those conditions.  Consistent sound levels between random tracks on an Ipod might be another issue in those cases.  As they stand I love the huge dynamics on my more powerful stereo, but need to constantly adjust the volume of the same recordings on my fathers living room Bose sub+sat system.

Generally, I think it can be more difficult to compress the dynamics of this type of music than it is for amplified music.  Not only is the overall dynamic range generally greater to begin with, but there tends to be more nuance, depth, and space between the notes with acoustic sources- all the things that dynamics compression seems to screw with.  In addition, any live amplified sounds are already treated with at least some if not multiple forms and layers of compression by the nature of the instrument amps, board processing to control and dial in 'the sound' and the output limits of the PA.

[boojum]

I master in SAM.  I do not compress classical.  It has a great dynamic range for a reason and I do not know as much as the composer or conductor.  I will eliminate the applause peaks so that I can normalize to ~98%/-1dB.  Not many classical labels refrain from compression.  You should be aware of that.  I know one, I forget the name, that bragged they did not compress from which I derive that compression was not uncommon with the others.  However, not having imported any of their tracks into SAM to view it I cannot say with surety.

Back to OP's question: I delete or attenuate the applause peaks and run a regular normalize and let it go at that.

My memory was just nudged, it was Telarc who claimed no compression.  They had some lovely recordings.  I have a few and enjoy them a great deal.  Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is often the best!

[live2496]

I have no practical experience with mastering classical, but I do know that most ME's use an analog signal chain using class-A circuits and very good A>D and D>A converters. Perhaps the analog gear is more forgiving in terms of boosting levels.

[WiFiJeff]

In order to earn a living, most mastering and recording engineers work mostly  in pop, and carry over into their classical work the FILTHY HABITS they learn there.

I attended an Audio Engineering Society local chapter meeting a year ago which was addressed by a well known and very capable recording engineer, who wrote the book on stereo techniques.  Much of what he said was very useful and applicable to what I do, but..... At one point he described microphone techniques he had used for recording Mahler's 8th Symphony, how he separately miked the chorus with directional mics so that the null point of the pattern kept it from picking up the nearby brass, etc.  He must have described a setup with dozens of channels of recording, including ONE for the four soloists.  This understandably confused a kid (the FUTURE of recording, egad) who wanted to know how you balance four soloists with only one mic!  Oh, says the guy, that you let the soloists and conductor do that, they actually have to listen to each other and THAT balancing is their job.  If only his ears could hear what his mouth had said.  It is the conductor's job to achieve the balance EVERYWHERE, which he believes the composer intended, in the hall his forces have available.  It is not the job of some dude with a ponytail, a bunch of cables and Schoeps mics.

I try to make my recordings sound like what you hear in the hall from a really good seat, not what you hear on an over-processed CD trying to sound loud and pleasingly synthetic.  When you screw up. you try EQ and other stuff, otherwise HANDS OFF.

Jeff

[BC]

Back to OP's question: I delete or attenuate the applause peaks and run a regular normalize and let it go at that.

same here

[BC]

No matter what I do, I cannot acheive an appropriate "commercial" volume level with my live chamber music recordings. Anytime i try to apply a "mastering" patch to the tracks, it sounds harsh and unreal. same thing i f i try to apply any kind of compression, multi-band compression, or even just a limiter - they all adversely affect the sound of the recording. the only thing that doesnt screw up the sound is to just physically raise the signal level to just under clipping, but that doesnt ever sound like a commercial recording.

so, how do you "master" your live recordings? how do commercial classical recordings acheive appropriate volume levels and still retain a nice smooth sound? thanks.

I know what you are getting at though, I have a DG box set of Von Karajan/Beethoven's Symphonies that needs very little volume to play at loud levels, but does not sound overcompressed, I'm not sure how those engineers they do it, maybe a combination of close and far field micing with a lot of editing and mixing work?

[rjp]

I'm starting to think that the pros are doing everything they possibly can to lower the noise floor. For starters, there is no audience in most commercial classical recordings, so that eliminates one source of noise. The lack of an audience also means that they can turn HVAC down to a bare minimum. If the piece doesn't have extra-low bass, a high-pass filter could also be used to eliminate any HVAC rumble.

Then we move on to the equipment and setup - without a doubt they're using high-grade everything, mics in the sweet spot(s), etc.

I seem to recall that a lot of Telarc recordings use relatively simple micing.

[Gutbucket]

I'll add that in playing around with compression, I find I tend to get closer to what I want with parallel or upward compression- both ways of achieving the same thing, namely raising the soft parts to make them louder, without changing the already loud portions.  Sort of the opposite approach of typical compression & limiting.

Comparing your end results to commercial releases means comparing your mastering skills to those of a skilled mastering engineer with specialized knowledge and expensive tools.  Those guys are really good.  I've thought about booking an hour or two with one just to sit in, watch/listen to them work and learn.

[boojum]

^^^^^  I use this sort of compression in pop/rock.  I have so far not compressed anything classical I have recorded.

[Yane]

The key is GENTLE compression. I use a multi-band compressor (the one that comes with Audition) with the ratio somewhere between 1.7:1 and 2.5:1, attack times around 10ms, releases around 100ms; play with crossover points and compression ratios to taste. Rule of thumb: if you can HEAR the compressor, back off! Take a look at the envelopes of some classical recordings you admire as a reference.  A recording with a low noise floor becomes more important here since the overall levels will be higher; consider some sort of noise reduction prior to compression, again applied gently.